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Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2013

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Comments

  • #8792
    SlickRic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,342 ✭✭✭✭SlickRic


    this is where the strategy being employed by the club's hierarchy is in some ways really exciting - with all the young players, etc - but it is also risky.

    i think it can be assumed we're following the Arsenal model somewhat.

    there is one key problem with us following the Arsenal model; it's that they started employing that model while they had a title winning team, so they had Champions League football already.

    Brendan Rodgers, over the next transfer window or 2, could have a success rate of much more than 50%, and he would still be in huge danger of having to regroup again through next summer if we don't get into the CL - and with Utd, City and Chelsea probably sewn up for the top 3, and Arsenal/Spurs much better than us at this minute, it's more likely than it is unlikely even if we improve hugely again - you're into, as I said, a very risky area.

    yes, this model is probably more sustainable, but without the CL and trophies being competed for, our best players are going to leave during summers. it's just inevitable.

    basically, i just see it all being very, very frustrating over the next while, unless we can get that top 4 sooner rather than later. that is, and it can't be stressed enough, of paramount importance.


  • #8793
    Dickerty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭Dickerty


    Have to agree Slick, particularly the difference to the Arsenal model. Hopefully we are not sacrificing now for later. I don't think we are, we still seem willing to spend significant fees for players we really want. But this summer needs to be a show of intent to the likes of Coutinho, Suarez (if we have any hope of him staying), Reina and some of the better kids that we are going places...


  • #8794
    Mr Alan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,372 ✭✭✭✭Mr Alan


    SlickRic wrote: »
    i think it can be assumed we're following the Arsenal model somewhat.

    there is one key problem with us following the Arsenal model; it's that they started employing that model while they had a title winning team, so they had Champions League football already.

    So they adopted the model when they had a title winninng team & were regularly winning trophies/competing at the top table.

    Since then, over the last 10 years they have disimproved to the point that they have not won a single trophy in that time & very nearly missed out on CL on more than 1 occassion.

    All this with one of the greatest managers ever to manage in England at the helm overseeing it.

    We're adopting the model while we're firmly away from footballs top table and are comfortably outside the top 4. And we gave a manager with very little to no genuine top flight experience this task?

    It's more than risky Slick. It's absolute idiocy.

    We will not get top 4 using this approach ever.


  • #8795
    Hidalgo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,845 ✭✭✭Hidalgo


    Dickerty wrote: »
    I think it is WAY too early to say. If we keep Luis, and sign a top CB and a creative CM like Erikson or MkH, there is every reason to believe we will improve by a few wins, at least. It's not only the top teams that will improve, everyone has more TV money to spend this summer. But if we are focusing on Arsenal and Spurs (as I reckon The Manc Two and Chelsea will be a step ahead), they both have some challenges this summer - Arsenal need to spend in a way they are not used to or risk dropping back, and Spurs need to hold onto their star player - just like us, except I think the loss would be greater to them.

    Out of curiosity, why do you think Bale for Spurs would be a bigger loss than Suarez for Liverpool?
    BAle would probably fetch a better price than Liverpool.
    Both would be massive losses but I don't think Spurs would go backwards enough for Liverpool to overtake them.


  • #8796
    5live
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭5live


    Hidalgo wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, why do you think Bale for Spurs would be a bigger loss than Suarez for Liverpool?
    BAle would probably fetch a better price than Liverpool.
    Both would be massive losses but I don't think Spurs would go backwards enough for Liverpool to overtake them.
    And spurs have a fantastic record in the last few years of signing players to improve the team/squad, a much much MUCH better record than ours:(


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  • #8797
    Dickerty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭Dickerty


    Mr Alan wrote: »
    We will not get top 4 using this approach ever.

    Which approach? The signing players for 2/3 years from now? Or the inexperienced manager (who I believe has 20 years coaching experience, with 5 years at Manager level?)

    How would you have us do it? Blow a wad on the likes of Huntelaar, Sneijder, keeping Maxi and Dirk in the hope that we make top 4 AND stay there? Cause that's the thing to remember - it has to be sustainable. There is no point buying a price winning rose, planting it, winning the Lovely Garden award, and then not watering it!


  • #8798
    SlickRic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,342 ✭✭✭✭SlickRic


    Dickerty wrote: »
    How would you have us do it?

    he'd have us sack Rodgers, get Rafa in (prior to being snapped up by Napoli obviously), and watch us soar.

    have you not read this thread before?


  • #8799
    Dickerty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭Dickerty


    Hidalgo wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, why do you think Bale for Spurs would be a bigger loss than Suarez for Liverpool?
    BAle would probably fetch a better price than Liverpool.
    Both would be massive losses but I don't think Spurs would go backwards enough for Liverpool to overtake them.

    I don't think they have enough stars in the team. We have shown without Suarez that Coutinho and Sturridge can carry the attack, Stevie and Lucas are always there. Spurs are falling back on a much less impactful group, I wouldn't put a lot of trust in Ade, Defoe, Gylfi, Dembele to lead the team in Bale's absence, he took on that job from Modric...


  • #8800
    Dickerty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭Dickerty


    SlickRic wrote: »
    he'd have us sack Rodgers, get Rafa in (prior to being snapped up by Napoli obviously), and watch us soar.

    have you not read this thread before?

    Yes, but was curious to see if he'd have a new argument - silly of me... :rolleyes:


  • #8801
    billy2012
    Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭billy2012


    Dickerty wrote: »
    I don't think they have enough stars in the team. We have shown without Suarez that Coutinho and Sturridge can carry the attack, Stevie and Lucas are always there. Spurs are falling back on a much less impactful group, I wouldn't put a lot of trust in Ade, Defoe, Gylfi, Dembele to lead the team in Bale's absence, he took on that job from Modric...

    I wouldn't have Dembele in there, pure class.


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  • #8802
    whatawaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,910 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    Mr Alan wrote: »
    So they adopted the model when they had a title winninng team & were regularly winning trophies/competing at the top table.

    Since then, over the last 10 years they have disimproved to the point that they have not won a single trophy in that time & very nearly missed out on CL on more than 1 occassion.

    All this with one of the greatest managers ever to manage in England at the helm overseeing it.

    We're adopting the model while we're firmly away from footballs top table and are comfortably outside the top 4. And we gave a manager with very little to no genuine top flight experience this task?

    It's more than risky Slick. It's absolute idiocy.

    We will not get top 4 using this approach ever.

    Arsenal have had the lowest net spend in the premier league in the last 10 years. We are not following that model. We are spending what money we have.

    I'd see us being closer to the Spurs model - buying good young players, and if they lose them, then replace them with hopefully better young players.

    Spurs have managed to make themselves a fixture in the top 4/5 in the league using this model despite having less money than Liverpool do and despite making some mistakes with managerial appointments along the way.


  • #8803
    gafferino
    Registered Users Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭gafferino


    5live wrote: »
    And spurs have a fantastic record in the last few years of signing players to improve the team/squad, a much much MUCH better record than ours:(

    Yeah totally agree but I have a feeling we will be a little better in our transfer dealings going forward. If Spurs, Arsenal etc can unearth gems at good value then so can we. The set-up now seems to be geared towards this.


  • #8804
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,399 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    To date, Arsenal's approach since 2006 has not been successful on the pitch. Bottom line. They went from a team competing for / winning leagues and European Cups to one that seems happy to gain CL qualification year on year. And that despite retaining the manager who got them to great heights before they adapted the policy.

    Spur's approach under Levy for the past 12 years, while much lauded, has yielded CL qualifaction once and two League Cups.

    Newcastle were being praised as they made a challenge for top four and were fighting relegation the season after.

    =============

    Abramovich is much critiscised but under his direction Chelsea have a CL, three Leagues and numerous Cups.

    City's owners are much critiscised but they took City to a League Title within four seasons.

    =============

    In football's current era, financial profit and sustainability is competitive death. Maybe FFP will save us.


  • #8805
    whatawaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,910 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    To date, Arsenal's approach since 2006 has not been successful on the pitch. Bottom line. They went from a team competing for / winning leagues and European Cups to one that seems happy to gain CL qualification year on year. And that despite retaining the manager who got them to great heights before they adapted the policy.

    Spur's approach under Levy for the past 12 years, while much lauded, has yielded CL qualifaction once and two League Cups.

    Newcastle were being praised as they made a challenge for top four and were fighting relegation the season after.

    =============

    Abramovich is much critiscised but under his direction Chelsea have a CL, three Leagues and numerous Cups.

    City's owners are much critiscised but they took City to a League Title within four seasons.

    =============

    In football's current era, financial profit and sustainability is competitive death. Maybe FFP will save us.

    Arsenal have not been spending all of their money, and for all of Wenger's greatness, he has bought terribly in recent years imo (with some obvious exceptions)

    What would you have us do? Spend more money than we have? Rack up more debts?


  • #8806
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,399 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    whatawaster wrote: »
    Arsenal have not been spending all of their money, and for all of Wenger's greatness, he has bought terribly in recent years imo (with some obvious exceptions)

    What would you have us do? Spend more money than we have? Rack up more debts?

    We can do what we're doing. But let's cut the **** and stop pretending that it's a serious attempt to win a league or CL because it clearly isn't. The club is not currently doing what would be necessary to compete, bottom line.


  • #8807
    whatawaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,910 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    We can do what we're doing. But let's cut the **** and stop pretending that it's a serious attempt to win a league or CL because it clearly isn't. The club is not currently doing what would be necessary to compete, bottom line.

    The club is doing all they can do imo.

    We can never compete with the limitless money Chelsea and City seem to have.
    We cannot currently compete with the revenues United and Arsenal have.

    You can't take a team that had got worse season-on-season until this year and had averaged 7th place for the last 3 seasons and make them title challengers overnight. It will take years if it happens at all and there are many steps we have to make along the way:

    - arrest our decline in league position and points totals
    - push on towards the top 4
    - break into the top 4
    - stay in the top 4 (perhaps the most difficult step of all)
    - challenge for title
    - heartbreak
    - challenge again
    - hopefully win the title

    There has never been a time when 5 teams aside from Liverpool were so strong. It's hard to see City, United, Chelsea or Arsenal going anywhere so it's going to be a mammoth task, but we are definitely trying and doing all we can to compete imo.


  • #8808
    Dickerty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭Dickerty


    billy2012 wrote: »
    I wouldn't have Dembele in there, pure class.

    Not saying he's not a good player, but is he going to lead that team, be a fulcrum, if Bale leaves? I don't think he has that in his locker.


  • #8809
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,399 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    The media praise of Spurs is actually fascinating. Sky and the media need to sell the idea of a truely deep and competitive league, but there is such a giant gap between the big three and the rest. People might claim 'oh but Arsenal and Spurs actually finished ahead of Chelsea last season!' but that was because Chelsea were engaged in the important business of winning the Champions League.

    Levy has maximized revenues; put good technical / scouting people in place; hired a couple of good managers and fought like a tiger in the transfer market. And they have what to show for it when it's all said and done?

    Football isn't fair I suppose but it's a sport without a salary cap or robust spending restrictions so why would it be. Our current manager and owners can continue to make the 'prudent' moves that please so many on here but it isn't going to achieve what we want it to I'm afraid.


  • #8810
    Hidalgo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,845 ✭✭✭Hidalgo


    Dickerty wrote: »
    I don't think they have enough stars in the team. We have shown without Suarez that Coutinho and Sturridge can carry the attack, Stevie and Lucas are always there. Spurs are falling back on a much less impactful group, I wouldn't put a lot of trust in Ade, Defoe, Gylfi, Dembele to lead the team in Bale's absence, he took on that job from Modric...

    I'd love a Dembele @ Liverpool. Both he and Verthongen are well able to lead imo. The other's you mention are quite flaky.
    Yes Couthinho and Sturridge have done really well without Suarez, but that's over a very narrow time frame, the big test will be for them to perform over a full season. Here's hoping they do. Gerrard also won't be there forever, Liverpool have just lost one leader to retirement.

    If both teams lost their star, whoever replaces him best would thus be strongest going forward. If Spurs got in a proper goal scorer, (if they had one this season) they'd be top 4 imo


  • #8811
    whatawaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,910 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    And they have what to show for it when it's all said and done?

    They are no longer premier league strugglers like they were in the Alan Sugar days. They now have plenty of quality players including one of the best in the league. They have a good young manager. They have finished in the top 4 twice in the last 4 seasons. In an age of a rich chelsea, a rich City, a rich United and a rich Arsenal that is an excellent record.

    Football isn't fair I suppose but it's a sport without a salary cap or robust spending restrictions so why would it be. Our current manager and owners can continue to make the 'prudent' moves that please so many on here but it isn't going to achieve what we want it to I'm afraid.

    So what is your strategy to get us what we want?


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  • #8812
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,399 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    whatawaster wrote: »
    They are no longer premier league strugglers like they were in the Alan Sugar days. They now have plenty of quality players including one of the best in the league. They have a good young manager. They have finished in the top 4 twice in the last 4 seasons. In an age of a rich chelsea, a rich City, a rich United and a rich Arsenal that is an excellent record.

    What have they won? What are they likely to win going forward? Maybe they've printed those top four finishes out and framed them in the trophy cabinet? Maybe they have the Real Madrid pennant from when they got tonked in the CL Quarters proudly displayed somewhere? I don't know. Nothing that they've been doing is what I want to aspire to tbh.
    So what is your strategy to get us what we want?

    Nah, you don't get to ask me that question tbh. You were a supporter of the key decision that put us where we are now so you don't get to go 'do it my way, do it my way, do it my way' and then say 'but what other way is there?' when your way is failing.


  • #8813
    whatawaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,910 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    What have they won? What are they likely to win going forward? Maybe they've printed those top four finishes out and framed them in the trophy cabinet? Maybe they have the Real Madrid pennant from when they got tonked in the CL Quarters proudly displayed somewhere? I don't know. Nothing that they've been doing is what I want to aspire to tbh.

    But it's success relative to what they've had before. Not every club can be Man United and challenge for the league every year and win it every other year.

    They are doing well and are on a sustainable footing. Who knows what they will win go forward. If they continue to buy as well as they have done, if they can keep Bale and if AVB turns out to be as good as people think he can be then they can certainly challenge for the league in the next few years.
    Nah, you don't get to ask me that question tbh. You were a supporter of the key decision that put us where we are now so you don't get to go 'do it my way, do it my way, do it my way' and then say 'but what other way is there?' when your way is failing.

    Failing? The way I wanted the club to be run has only started in the last 12 months and it certainly hasn't failed yet.

    I can ask you whatever I want. If you want to choose to complain but offer no alternative way back to the top then that's fine.


  • #8814
    gafferino
    Registered Users Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭gafferino


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    The media praise of Spurs is actually fascinating. Sky and the media need to sell the idea of a truely deep and competitive league, but there is such a giant gap between the big three and the rest. People might claim 'oh but Arsenal and Spurs actually finished ahead of Chelsea last season!' but that was because Chelsea were engaged in the important business of winning the Champions League.

    Levy has maximized revenues; put good technical / scouting people in place; hired a couple of good managers and fought like a tiger in the transfer market. And they have what to show for it when it's all said and done?

    Football isn't fair I suppose but it's a sport without a salary cap or robust spending restrictions so why would it be. Our current manager and owners can continue to make the 'prudent' moves that please so many on here but it isn't going to achieve what we want it to I'm afraid.

    I find it baffling that you think this. Aside from 1 or 2 maybe (and cant even think of any) no one is happy at where we are. Finishing 7th and happy??????? Are you kidding me.

    As whatawaster has pointed out already in his posts today we have been on decline for a number of years. We are of the opinion that we are seeing some sort of stability for the first time in years and some signs that maybe the rot has stopped and we can start moving back upwards again - it will be slow no matter who the manager is. Without a Man City style sugar daddy this will probably take years. People are 'pleased' in relation to the turmoil of the last few years not at where we currently are.

    Lloyd you must know this by now. You clearly know a lot about the club, are passionate about it and posted here for years so I dont understand why you think we are all delighted with where we are. I dont know a Liverpool fan who is.


  • #8815
    Demosthenese
    Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭Demosthenese


    Most clubs - those with no billionaire owners - have basically the same strategy regarding running their football club. Strengthen within your means during the closed season/windows, produce your own youngsters that will eventually come through saving you from having to buy in expensive replacements and spend the money that you get through revenue streams wisely.

    If you constrast Arsenal with Liverpool - it is pretty obvious that Arsenal have the better structure, they have had plenty of players come through their ranks under Wenger and have sold many at a profit, they looked 10 years ahead and decided to upgrade their home ground while successful and at the detriment of the team they have made a home that is pretty envious to all outside - the emirates capacity allows them to compete with anyone around them. They are now basically self sufficient. Their problem is however, they do not seem to be able to attract the type of player that will return them to their glory days and seem unwilling to break their pay structure to land the bigger fish. they are a well oiled machine, generate plenty of money and play it safe. Successwise they have had a horrible few years and it seems to continue. They are though a football club ran as it should be ran. They have done the groundwork to keep them at the top for years to come - of course, the top to them means qualifying for the CL year after year rather than actually securing trophies. Cannot see this changing until either Wenger leaves or the board litterrally make him spend the money ...

    Liverpool are in a different bracket, we have not enough capacity to compete with the top4, although we have a great worldwide name it lessens as the years pass cos we cannot get into the CL where all the exposure is. Our past few seasons have been shocking regarding how we invest the funds from transfers, we have payed over the odds for most of our transfers and aside from suarez/strurridge/coutinho we have not spent wisely enough. Until this season our academy looked rather threadbare and we do not look like generating the young talent to subside having to go out and buy accomplished players to enable us to challenge.

    Its a catch22 for us. There is a dangerous line to cross where you end up chasing the dream and as a consequence create debt on your club i.e Porthsmouth. This season was probably the first time we've seen a constant stream of youngsters get a chance to prove themselves. Also its the first time in a long time we've managed to steady the ship as it were and at least look like we have a plan. From the transfers we've almost completed and chasing - it looks like we'll be shopping in the midrange bargains and hope to unearth another Coutinho for our trouble positions.

    So much depends on how we handle the players we currently have, Suarez being the pinnacle and the players we want to replace. Rodgers has yet to sign a centre half and we might end up needing 2 of them. Arsenal have failed to competently replace their old guard for a decade now and the effect is dipping from title contenders to 4th place wannabes, we could slip further down the ranks if we do not replace quality with quality.


  • #8816
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,399 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    But the summer isn't going the way we'd need it to in order for us to close the gap. It's:

    Suarez out
    Young promising players in

    Carra out
    Toure in

    Ain't closing the distance this way. My expectations are lower than they've ever been right now tbh.


  • #8817
    spockety
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 5,492 Mod ✭✭✭✭spockety


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    But the summer isn't going the way we'd need it to in order for us to close the gap. It's:

    Suarez out
    Young promising players in

    Carra out
    Toure in

    Ain't closing the distance this way. My expectations are lower than they've ever been right now tbh.

    The summer is literally 10 days old. :D


  • #8818
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,399 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    whatawaster wrote: »
    But it's success relative to what they've had before. Not every club can be Man United and challenge for the league every year and win it every other year.

    They are doing well and are on a sustainable footing. Who knows what they will win go forward. If they continue to buy as well as they have done, if they can keep Bale and if AVB turns out to be as good as people think he can be then they can certainly challenge for the league in the next few years.

    Spurs will never get closer to a title challenge than a bunch of ifs and everything their way for a number of years.
    whatawaster wrote: »
    Failing? The way I wanted the club to be run has only started in the last 12 months and it certainly hasn't failed yet.

    I can ask you whatever I want. If you want to choose to complain but offer no alternative way back to the top then that's fine.

    You wanted Benitez out in 2010 and got your way. Three years later the results are in. Happy with how it turned out?


  • #8819
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,399 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    spockety wrote: »
    The summer is literally 10 days old. :D

    Yeah, I'll wait for another couple of months until we sign this summer's Joe Allen. Can't wait!


  • #8820
    whatawaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,910 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    You wanted Benitez out in 2010 and got your way. Three years later the results are in. Happy with how it turned out?

    Not really, no.


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  • #8821
    Raif Severance
    Registered Users Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭Raif Severance


    whatawaster wrote: »
    So what is your strategy to get us what we want?

    Bring Rafa along with a Sugar Daddy. :rolleyes:

    I don't even know why most of you keeps Falling for it, Hook, Line and Sinker. It's another of those Regurgitated Debate, that's been Discussed to Death in several Threads over.

    For Reference, just look in over here for one of those:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056808208&page=495

    And do you know what's even more Worse than Regurgitated Debates?
    It's the Constant Whining without offering any Concrete Solutions inorder to Deal with the Problems.


This discussion has been closed.
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