Place names in Ireland of Danish origin

Gentleman Off The Pitch · 21-07-2015 9:23pm #1

Please excuse the ignorance of this question, I'm far from a history scholar and I'm sure I'm missing a big part of the picture here but anyway..

I was watching this documentary English Birth of a Language on youtube and it mentions the influence of the Danes that settled in North East England can be seen to this day in the many different surnames ending in -son, and place names ending in -by, -thwaite, thorpe etc.

While I'm aware of some of the place names of Viking origin like those listed here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Place_names_in_Ireland#Names_of_Norse_origin, I'm wondering why we don't see place names containing -thwaite, thorpe etc. in Ireland?

tabbey · 21-07-2015 10:27pm

Probably because the vikings mostly confined themselves to the Irish Sea coast and southeast, hence we have Howth, Dyflin (Dubh linn), Dalkey, Wicklow, Wexford, Waterford and Carlingford. The ford in these instances meaning fjord.

Arsemageddon · 21-07-2015 10:28pm

Permanent Norse settlement in Ireland was generally confined to a few major centres along the coast - Dublin, Wexford, Waterford, Limerick, and Cork (and come others). The Norse influence on Ireland waned significantly after the Battle of Clontarf.

Norse settlement in Britain was much more extensive with numerous permanent settlements across Scotland and the northern half of England. These settlements led to the Norse having a much more profound influence on the development of society and place names there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw

The similarity between the Saxon and Norse languages may also have been a factor in the retention of Norse place names in Britain. The English language evolved as a hybrid of the languages and cultures that had the most influence in Britain.

On the other hand the difference between Gaelic and Norse and the primacy of the Gaelic language in Ireland in the medieval period might explain why so few Norse place names remain.

You can get more info on the origin of Irish place names on the Irish Place Names Commission website
http://www.logainm.ie/en/

tabbey · 21-07-2015 10:30pm

Another possibility is that Ireland's vikings were more Norwegian than Danish.

uck51js9zml2yt · 21-07-2015 10:34pm

Does any know about borris in ossary?
Who was borris and what was he doing in ossary?

Gentleman Off The Pitch · 21-07-2015 10:43pm

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Permanent Norse settlement in Ireland was generally confined to a few major centres along the coast - Dublin, Wexford, Waterford, Limerick, and Cork (and come others). The Norse influence on Ireland waned significantly after the Battle of Clontarf.

Norse settlement in Britain was much more extensive with numerous permanent settlements across Scotland and the northern half of England. These settlements led to the Norse having a much more profound influence on the development of society and place names there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw

The similarity between the Saxon and Norse languages may also have been a factor in the retention of Norse place names in Britain. The English language evolved as a hybrid of the languages and cultures that had the most influence in Britain.

On the other hand the difference between Gaelic and Norse and the primacy of the Gaelic language in Ireland in the medieval period might explain why so few Norse place names remain.

You can get more info on the origin of Irish place names on the Irish Place Names Commission website
http://www.logainm.ie/en/

Very interesting, thanks

tabbey · 21-07-2015 11:02pm

Tatranska,- Borris means a borough, a town. Borris in Ossory was a town in the diocese of Ossory. Twomile Borris, Borrisoleigh, and Borris, Co Carlow are other examples.

conorh91 · 24-07-2015 7:46pm

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Permanent Norse settlement in Ireland was generally confined to a few major centres along the coast - Dublin, Wexford, Waterford, Limerick, and Cork (and come others). The Norse influence on Ireland waned significantly after the Battle of Clontarf.

Norse settlement in Britain was much more extensive with numerous permanent settlements across Scotland and the northern half of England.

What about the northern counties of the island? Why Dublin to Cork and not, say, Derry to Cork I wonder?

FluffyAngel · 25-07-2015 8:49am

conorh91 wrote: »

What about the northern counties of the island? Why Dublin to Cork and not, say, Derry to Cork I wonder?

it has to do with the tides and land hopping ,Cork to Derry will have been visted by the spanish and porto etc tribes/people

alot of the stone circles etc or on that side of country

Cork Kerry are loaded with them as they were the first landpoints

pedroeibar1 · 25-07-2015 4:59pm

FluffyAngel wrote: »

it has to do with the tides and land hopping ,Cork to Derry will have been visted by the spanish and porto etc tribes/people

alot of the stone circles etc or on that side of country

Cork Kerry are loaded with them as they were the first landpoints

OT nonsense.
What have stonecircles/Iberians to do with the topic? Have you any idea about the tidal streams around Ireland? Actually, have you any idea?
Smerwick.

Ipso · 25-07-2015 5:20pm

FluffyAngel wrote: »

it has to do with the tides and land hopping ,Cork to Derry will have been visted by the spanish and porto etc tribes/people

alot of the stone circles etc or on that side of country

Cork Kerry are loaded with them as they were the first landpoints

There's a bit of a time span between stone circles and vikings (and it's very debatable that the first land points were done by Iberians).

Anyway maybe the reason the West didn't get as much attention is that the Irish Sea area was closer to Scotland, Isle of Mann etc
Although there is a chance that Dun na Gall where Donegal gets it's name is a reference to a Viking settlement.

pedroeibar1 · 25-07-2015 8:03pm

Ipso wrote: »

Anyway maybe the reason the West didn't get as much attention is that the Irish Sea area was closer to Scotland, Isle of Mann etc
Although there is a chance that Dun na Gall where Donegal gets it's name is a reference to a Viking settlement.

I agree with that bit. However, the West and SW got plenty of attention. In 807 the Vikings attacked Innishmurray off Sligo and about the same time hit Roscam in Galway Bay. A couple of years later they attacked the Skelligs and took the abbot prisoner for ransom – he died as a captive. Apart from Smerwick which I mentioned earlier (and it’s an absolute disgrace that the gaelgeoirs have been allowed to ban that name!) there also are on the S & W coasts the Viking names of Blaskets, Dursey, Fastnet, Fota, Helvick, Saltees and Tuskar. And on Beginish off Valentia there are Hiberno-Norse carvings on a rune-stone. Scattery Island (Viking name) in the Shannon Estuary was a Viking base; there is a note in one of the Annals that about 100 Viking ships from there ravaged the south west coast in 812 A.D. And the Shannon was used as a waterway to get to Clonmacnoise.
As for the other poster's comments on "land hopping" and "tides" , anybody with (even a basic) knowledge of weather, coastal sailing or the development of pre- and medieval ports would understand why there were no major Viking settlements on the SW & W coasts.

FluffyAngel · 25-07-2015 9:18pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

OT nonsense.
What have stonecircles/Iberians to do with the topic? Have you any idea about the tidal streams around Ireland? Actually, have you any idea?
Smerwick.

with the greatest respect pedro ,i posted with my view on the question asked ,i answered with my answer ,,i have no wish to go down the road with you of "my understanding is more worthy than yours"

i look forward to respectful dialogue with you ,instead of playground histrionics..

conorh91 · 25-07-2015 9:36pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

As for the other poster's comments on "land hopping" and "tides" , anybody with (even a basic) knowledge of weather, coastal sailing or the development of pre- and medieval ports would understand why there were no major Viking settlements on the SW & W coasts.

I was the one who asked the question (the question was about an apparent lack of viking activity in Northern counties, actually), and I asked it out of curiosity… you know, hoping to discover some interesting fact? Nobody is impressed by haughty answers implying that others don't have even basic knowledge, trying to sound superior. Get over yourself.

tac foley · 25-07-2015 9:37pm

Gentleman Off The Pitch wrote: »

I was watching this documentary English Birth of a Language on youtube and it mentions the influence of the Danes that settled in North East England can be seen to this day in the many different surnames ending in -son, and place names ending in -by, -thwaite, thorpe etc.

Respectfully, it was far, far more than simply the North-east of England. The entire area encompassed by the original Danelaw is liberally sprinkled with names derived from Old Norse and Danish - the very language is full of it to this day. Don't overlook Cumbria on the North-west of the country - the noted author and journalist Sir Melvin Bragg did not actually speak English as a boy until he was around twelve or thirteen, but Cumbrian, a dialect so close to Norse/Danish as to be totally unintelligible to a non-local, but readily understood by a present day Dane or Norwegian [with a bit of lateral thinking, it's true to say].

Where I live in East Anglia, almost every place-name is Scandinavian in origin, with VERY few exceptions.

tac in Aest Angleland

pedroeibar1 · 25-07-2015 10:37pm

FluffyAngel wrote: »

with the greatest respect pedro ,i posted with my view on the question asked ,i answered with my answer ,,i have no wish to go down the road with you of "my understanding is more worthy than yours"

i look forward to respectful dialogue with you ,instead of playground histrionics..

With the greatest respect, I posted facts in answer to the OP and the post by Ipso, and gave several examples. I did not bother to post surmise, or, like you, “my view”. Your "understanding", or mine, or anybody elses' for that matter, does not matter a jot unless supported by evidence. I also – as a matter of common courtesy to others - used capital letters and punctuation where appropriate.

All dialogue is based on knowledge of the topic under discussion. It presupposes at least a basic knowledge of the topic, otherwise there cannot be dialogue. Respectful dialogue originates from an understanding of knowing when to post, what to post and when to stay schtum. Posting for the sake of doing so belongs in Afterhours, particularly when the content is totally off topic and factually incorrect. Now if you have something of merit to post I would be happy to read it. Respectfully.

FluffyAngel · 25-07-2015 10:58pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

With the greatest respect, I posted facts in answer to the OP and the post by Ipso, and gave several examples. I did not bother to post surmise, or, like you, “my view”. Your "understanding", or mine, or anybody elses' for that matter, does not matter a jot unless supported by evidence. I also – as a matter of common courtesy to others - used capital letters and punctuation where appropriate.

All dialogue is based on knowledge of the topic under discussion. It presupposes at least a basic knowledge of the topic, otherwise there cannot be dialogue. Respectful dialogue originates from an understanding of knowing when to post, what to post and when to stay schtum. Posting for the sake of doing so belongs in Afterhours, particularly when the content is totally off topic and factually incorrect. Now if you have something of merit to post I would be happy to read it. Respectfully.

you dont own this forum ,but its woeful that a first time poster in this thread is subjected to your Nazi grammar style treatment and you not even a mod..

What has after hours and posting got to do with anything? how is anybody supposed to post in boards and not being put off by being jumped on because of what they wrote

my viewpoint is as valid as yours ..

Somewhere along the line ,you have appointed yourself the history gatekeeper and your so into protecting the gates that your allowing yourself to get sucked into the my way or noway ...

goodluck with it..

dubhthach · 26-07-2015 10:00am

Can we all calm down. Pedro if you problems with posts been off-topic you can always report them.

Anyways first off "Iberians" and "Stone circles" aren't relevant. The topic isn't about the Neolithic or even the Atlantic Bronze age (where there are signs of contact form IReland through France down to Iberia -- Ireland has more links to France tbh).

With regards to lack of "Viking settlement" in North and West part of reason is due to fact that the Uí Néill and the Connachta successfully blunted Viking settlement including destroying Longphoirt's and defeating the Vikings in battle, one only has to refer to the Annals to see this. If you look at a map generally most successful viking settlements that survived the 9th century were on the boundaries between Irish kingdoms. So for example Dublin sat on border between Laighin (Leinster) and Midhe (Meath -- eg. Southern Uí Néill), whereas Waterford sat on border between Déise (Munster), Osraighe (thence Ossory eg. Kilkenny -- which was quasi independent Laighin and Mumha) and Laighin.

Wexford was also in "semi-border area" but key thing here is during this period that kingship of Laighin was dominated by Uí Dúnlainge (which include modern O'Toole and Byrne families of Wicklow -- they were pushed into Wicklow by Normans) of Magh Lífe (the Plain of the Liffey) who were based in Nás na Ríogh (modern Naas)

uck51js9zml2yt · 26-07-2015 10:30am

tabbey wrote: »

Tatranska,- Borris means a borough, a town. Borris in Ossory was a town in the diocese of Ossory. Twomile Borris, Borrisoleigh, and Borris, Co Carlow are other examples.

That's my lifelong dream of some interesting Viking visiting ossory shattered.

dubhthach · 26-07-2015 10:44am

Francisco Scarce Rib wrote: »

That's my lifelong dream of some interesting Viking visiting ossory shattered.

The men from two fleets of Norsemen came into Cerball son of Dúnlang's territory for plunder. When messengers came to tell that to Cerball, he was drunk. The noblemen of Osraige were saying to him kindly and calmly, to strengthen him: ‘What the Norwegians are doing now, that is, destroying the whole country, is no reason for a man in Osraige to be drunk. But may God protect you all the same, and may you win victory and triumph over your enemies as you often have done, and as you still shall. Shake off your drunkenness now, for drunkenness is the enemy of valor.’

When Cerball heard that, his drunkenness left him and he seized his arms. A third of the night had passed at that time. This is how Cerball came out of his chamber: with a huge royal candle before him, and the light of that candle shone far in every direction. Great terror seized the Norwegians, and they fled to the nearby mountains and to the woods. Those who stayed behind out of valor, moreover, were all killed.

When daybreak came the next morning, Cerball attacked all of them with his troops, and he did not give up after they had been slaughtered until they had been routed, and they had scattered in all directions. Cerball himself fought hard in this battle, and the amount he had drunk the night before hampered him greatly, and he vomited much, and that gave him immense strength; and he urged his people loudly and harshly against the Norwegians, and more than half of the army was killed there, and those who escaped fled to their ships. This defeat took place at Achad mic Erclaige. Cerball turned back afterwards with triumph and great spoils.

Cerball mac Dúnlainge was King of the Osraighe (Osraí = modern irish) until his death in 888AD.

Of course his descendants would eventually take the surname Mac Giolla Phadraig, which was anglisced as Fitzpatrick, loosing most of Osraighe to the Butlers, but retaining "Upper Ossory" which they were enobled with title of "Baron Upper Ossory" and which was incorporated with Laoghis when "Queen's County" was shired in 16th century (they asked to be included so Butlers could lord it over them).

sm213 · 27-07-2015 7:30am

I advise you to go to Dublinia when the public tours are on at 2.30 ish every day. Ring ahead at this time though as language schools are in back to back and guides are under crazy pressure.
Yes some of the info in the actual exhibition is to be argued but the guides are students and would be happy to waffle to anyone with a bit of real curiosity about it.
They know a lot more than what's there, its more than just a script they have.

Arsemageddon · 27-07-2015 4:23pm

conorh91 wrote: »

What about the northern counties of the island? Why Dublin to Cork and not, say, Derry to Cork I wonder?

In the early medieval period (450-1100 A.D.) Ireland was divided into five provinces which between them contained approximately 150 small kingdoms. This period was characterised by endemic warfare and cattle raiding with alliances fluctuating frequently from one fighting season to the next. The Tain dates from this period and it is considered to contain accurate details of what warfare was like in Ireland during the late-Iron Age/Early Medieval period. Similarly anyone who has read the Annals will have a good idea of how frequently raids on enemy territory occurred and how alliances shifted from year to year.

The initial period of Viking activity in Ireland consisted primarily of raids on isolated monasteries this was followed later by raids into the interior of the island and construction of temporary fortifications known as a Long Phort(Ship Fort). These forts were usually built at easily-defended locations on rivers where Norse ships with shallow drafts could be moored. The function of these forts was to allow the Norse a safe place to over-winter if they had left it too late to return to their homelands. These forts were frequently located at the boundaries between lesser kingdoms in order to prevent the occupants being attacked in force. Eventually some of the long phort became more permanent in nature - The best excavated example being at Woodstown, Co. Waterford. As these settlements became permanent in nature the Norse in Ireland joined in the Irish system of endemic warfare and shifting alliances.

The general accepted theory as to why there was little Norse settlement in the north is that the system of alliances that made up the kingdom of Ulster was more cohesive as Ulster was somewhat separate from the rest of Ireland due to the difficult nature of the terrain around the border of Ulster for any invading army (drumlins, bogs, lakes etc.) The natural topography was augmented by a defensive ditch that ran intermittently from Armagh to Sligo known as The Black Pig's Dyke (take that PC brigade!). While this ditch was unlikely to be very effective against a determined invader it did help foster a separate identity for Ulster.

It is also worth noting that the existence of the Kingdom of Dal Riada which extended from North-east Ulster to Western Scotland shows that the Gaels at this time had some naval availability and would have potentially been able to counter-attack the Norse based in the western islands of Scotland if the Norse opened hostilities against them.

By the by the term Long Phort became a loan word in medieval Irish that was applied to very large fortifications regardless of whether they were built by the Irish or the Norse. The common place name Longford is usually derived from this rather than a reference to a fording point on a river.

FluffyAngel wrote: »

it has to do with the tides and land hopping ,Cork to Derry will have been visted by the spanish and porto etc tribes/people

alot of the stone circles etc or on that side of country

Cork Kerry are loaded with them as they were the first landpoints

The earliest known sites in Ireland (from the Mesolithic period - hunter gatherer societies) are found right across the island with quite a few in the north of the country, Mount Sandel, Co. Derry being the best known. The archetypal artefact from this period - a distinctively Irish type of flint scraper known as a Bann Flake is so-called because of the frequency which they were found in the vicinity of the River Bann.

Interestingly enough C14 dates indicate that the Neolithic Passage tombs found in Co. Sligo significantly predate those of the Boyne Valley and the East coast. These dates have changed the earlier (and indeed quite logical) theory that the first farmers would have settles in the most fertile areas on the east coast having arrived from Britain.

Stone circles are generally dated to the Bronze Age (2500-500 BC). They are generally interpreted as representing a change in religious practice from the Neolithic period with a greater focus on the skies. The vast majority of stone circles are found in the southern half of the island with the greatest concentration in Cork and Kerry.

conorh91 · 28-07-2015 7:56pm

Fascinating post, Arsemageddon.

Difficult to write your name in a sincere context! But thanks for the info. This thread and your post got me book hunting, and now i'm reading Medieval Ireland by Michael Richter. It's quite a brief synopsis of medieval Irish history so if anyone has any further book suggestions, I'd be indebted. Thanks.

pedroeibar1 · 28-07-2015 10:05pm

conorh91 wrote: »

...........if anyone has any further book suggestions.........Thanks.

Look at the Gill & Macmillan series. Ireland before the Normans - Donnacha O'Corrain; The Church in Medieval Ireland - John Watt and Gaelic & Gaelicised Ireland in the Middle Ages - Kenneth Nicholls. The last covers the end of the late Medieval period, heavy on the social aspects, lordships, legal system, church, economy and then gets into the Provinces and their main families. It gives a very good overview of the late Medieval period.

conorh91 · 28-07-2015 11:04pm

Thanks Pedro, I'll have a look for it in town tomorrow.

Was just thinking about this this morning, I studied history until the age of 18, and haven't read anything on pre-Norman Ireland since 4th class of primary school, apart from a couple of dismissive chapters in a junior cert textbook.

It's a very unfortunate state of affairs that such an intriguing series of chapters in our history should be almost totally ignored during secondary education. I love history, and frankly it's embarrassing to consider how little I know of history prior to 1815.

pedroeibar1 · 28-07-2015 11:13pm

Arsemageddon wrote: »

........ Stone circles are generally dated to the Bronze Age (2500-500 BC)...........The vast majority of stone circles are found in the southern half of the island with the greatest concentration in Cork and Kerry.

It still bemuses me how and why Vallancey was taken so seriously in his day, with his Phoenicean auditoria and language hook-ups.

dubhthach · 29-07-2015 3:54pm

What I should say though is that concept of division into 5 provinces at time of Vikings is at best an anachronism and at worse learned fiction.In reality you are looking at a minimum of 6 if not anywhere up to 9 political entities during period 700-1000AD. Namely:

In Tuaisceart (in = an -- old irish): "The North" also known in English as Aileach -- Kingdom of Northern Uí Néill
Ulaidh (Ulster) at this stage restricted to east of Bann (Antrim/Down) which is kinda intresting given some of talk about North today
Midhe (Mí -- Meath): Kingdom of Southern Uí Néill, "Midhe" itself refered initially to what we now call Westmeath, in comparison current County (east)Meath was sub-kingdom of Brega -- Southen Uí Néill dominated by Clann Chólmain at this stage
Laighin -- Leinster but not as we understand it, restricted to Kildare, Laois, parts of Offaly, Kilkenny, Carlow, Wicklow, Wexford and southern Dublin -- domainted at this stage by Uí Dunlaing from Nás na Riogh (Naas)
Mumha (Munster) -- dominated by Eoghanachta until rise of Dál gCais in 10th century
Connacht -- ruled by near relatives of Uí Néill, these were known as the "Three Connachta" from 700 onwards the Uí Briúin specifically were dominant.

Outside of that basic framework ye had the following which were often quasi-independent:

Airgialla -> Oirghialla -> Oirialla (thence English: Oriel): confederation offering tributary service to Uí Néill (specifically Northern)
Bréifne -- the rough quarter of Connacht -- expansion zone for Uí Briúin in north-east direction, dominated by Uí Briúin Bréifne (who would contest for province overlordship), would expand heavily in 12th century at expense of Midhe (Kells would fall to them etc.)
Osraighe (Osraí, thence english Ossory) -- contested between Mumha and Laighin, as a result would often play one against other. Would rise as important military power during 9th century in conflict with Vikings (see post above)

A simplified map of situation would look like this:

The "High Kingship" if anything basically reflected political/military dominance outside of Munster (Munster stands apart in many ways in early irish history, reflected in quasi-division of Ireland into Leath Cuinn and Leath Mogha). It rotated between the Northern and Southern Uí Néill, who basically between them rewrote irish history in the 7th century into a framework which justified such a scenario.

dubhthach · 29-07-2015 4:06pm

Useful books covering general timeperiod:

Early Christian Ireland -- TM Charles Edwards (Cambridge University press) -- can be found in paperback in Hodges Figgis
https://books.google.ie/books?id=g6yq2sKLlFkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=early+christian+ireland&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=early%20christian%20ireland&f=false

Brian Boru and the Battle of Clontarf -- Seán Duffy (now in paperback)
https://books.google.ie/books?id=7vH4AwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=brian+boru+and+the+battle+of+clontarf&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAGoVChMI2cur_syAxwIVzBfbCh1upgwC#v=onepage&q=brian%20boru%20and%20the%20battle%20of%20clontarf&f=false

Medieval Ireland: Territorial, Political and Economic Divisions -- Paul McCotter (Paperback 2014)
https://books.google.ie/books?id=r8C6oQEACAAJ&dq=medieval+ireland+territorial+political+and+economic+divisions&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAGoVChMIpsClj82AxwIVLlnbCh3ndAWF

Ireland in the Medieval World AD 400-1000 (in paperback can even be found in Eason!!!!)
https://books.google.ie/books?id=TBT4LwEACAAJ&dq=ireland+in+the+medieval+world+ad+400-1000&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAGoVChMI4MTsvM2AxwIV8hfbCh3G5gZe

From Kings to Warlords: The Changing Political Structure of Gaelic Ireland (1987, paperback) -- covers mostly the post-Norman arrival, concerning changes in overlordship etc due to fragmentation etc that entailed, with Nicholls (in Pedro's post) quite good reading.
https://books.google.ie/books?id=9Ixtdp2naboC&printsec=frontcover&dq=from+kings+to+warlords&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAGoVChMIjZaO5c2AxwIVbi_bCh02VwRy#v=onepage&q=from%20kings%20to%20warlords&f=false

Bit more technical (well I'm still reading them or have to read them

)

Cattle Lords and Clansmen (The Social Structure of Early Ireland): Patterson -- University of Notre Dame press
http://undpress.nd.edu/books/P00044

Early Irish Kingship and Succession -- Bart Jaski (now in paperback)
https://books.google.ie/books?id=sTzUnAEACAAJ&dq=Early+Irish+kingship+and+succession&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y

dubhthach · 29-07-2015 4:17pm

Should note that I recently added:
The Vikings in Ireland and Beyond: Before and After the Battle of Clontarf
https://books.google.ie/books?id=FXcGngEACAAJ&dq=the+vikings+in+ireland+and+beyond&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y

to my growing book pile, I haven't had chance to dip into it much (in process of reading: "An Irish-Speaking Island: State, Religion, Community, and the Linguistic Landscape in Ireland, 1770–1870"), it's collection of essays etc, I picked it up in Dubray's it's hard back so not cheap, some great photo's in it from viking warrior graves on George's Street (where Dunnes HQ is)

Arsemageddon · 06-08-2015 2:55pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

It still bemuses me how and why Vallancey was taken so seriously in his day, with his Phoenicean auditoria and language hook-ups.

I have to admit to having a soft spot for misguided antiquarians and academics like Vallency and Archbishop Usher. Even though it's all bunkum they were operating in a vacuum with regard to methodology and they were making an effort to try and understand the world with the knowledge and date they had to hand.

I'd consider modern historians/authors who cherry pick information to suit their agenda to be in a different league.

pedroeibar1 · 06-08-2015 11:07pm

I'm also a fan of Vallancey - Dublin's oldest bridge, lots of good work at the RDS and finding Petty's missing maps. Love to have gone for a pint with him.

Place names in Ireland of Danish origin

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