End of Year Review of Dublin Bus

KD345 · 04-01-2015 12:35am

poggyone wrote: »

These people are the cause of increased dwell times, the middle doors is just something that has been repeated so many times here that it is now taken as fact.

Of course centre doors help reduce dwell times, having passengers exit by two doors is far quicker than using just one. Even factoring in unprepared passengers, using two doors speeds up the bus. Keep in mind the increased numbers now using Leap - so the cash passengers are slowly reducing.

poggyone · 04-01-2015 12:44am

foggy_lad wrote: »

Anyone I have seen who has not got their change ready is almost certainly a person who rarely uses the bus and does not know firstly if they are on the right bus and then they must ask the fare and check where they should be getting off the bus, These people are not going to be dealt with any faster because the drivers I have seen already deal with them as efficiently as they can.

Could not be more wrong if you tried, but then again what do i know, i just drive the bus 5 days a week for a living.

cdebru · 04-01-2015 2:56am

hfallada wrote: »

But I see everything I get off the bus. There is always people stopping wondering if their driver will open the middle doors. If every driver opened the middle door constantly, there would be people getting on the bus quicker.People unsure of the fare is out of your control. But the bus stopping at stops too long, as people getting on have to wait for everyone to get off is in a bus drivers control

Pretty much every person under 30 has a twitter account or regularly uses it. Twitter is super quick to update and makes more sense to update than an app.

Its not in a drivers control to consistently open the center doors until 2 things happen

1 Stops are brought up to standard suitable for dual door use if you are unsure what that is have a look at the tfl guide to bus stop design.

2 enforce the laws regarding, parking, and stopping at the stops and approach and exit from the stops.

None of them are in the control of any DB driver and until. They are sorted the best you can expect is an inconsistent use of center doors were passengers are never really sure where they will exit so they head for the front door just to be sure, and to avoid confusion some drivers will just not bother with the center doors.

cdebru · 04-01-2015 3:03am

foggy_lad wrote: »

On many journeys on busy dublin bus services especially on cross city routes such as the 15/145 much of the dwell time within the city centre area is from people trying to get off the bus through a very packed lower saloon and the driver has to wait for those getting off before he/she allows others to board the bus. If there were centre doors that were used at every stop this unnecessary dwell time would be kept to a minimum.

Anyone I have seen who has not got their change ready is almost certainly a person who rarely uses the bus and does not know firstly if they are on the right bus and then they must ask the fare and check where they should be getting off the bus, These people are not going to be dealt with any faster because the drivers I have seen already deal with them as efficiently as they can.

Just not true, people who regularly use the bus like everyday get on and ask what the fare is, even though they get the same bus everyday day, even though they have the exact amount in their hand, then they drop one coin at a time in and slowly count out the money.
Then there are the people who use bus everyday but are somehow caught off guard everyday that they have to pay a fare, they usually push themselves onto the bus first before they start to search, pockets, handbags, wallets, little plastic bags of change looking for the fare.

Aard · 04-01-2015 5:08am

poggyone wrote: »

6.New Bus design will get more people to travel.
No one but bus spotters knows the difference between the av,ax,ev,vt,gt,sg. In fact the new individual seats mean we carry less, on the bench seats 3 children could fit, now only 2. People want a bus to run they dont care what it look like.

This is so true. People just want to get from a to b. The exact vehicle they're sitting on is completely irrelevant to most.

Aard · 04-01-2015 5:10am

cdebru wrote: »

Just not true, people who regularly use the bus like everyday get on and ask what the fare is, even though they get the same bus everyday day, even though they have the exact amount in their hand, then they drop one coin at a time in and slowly count out the money.
Then there are the people who use bus everyday but are somehow caught off guard everyday that they have to pay a fare, they usually push themselves onto the bus first before they start to search, pockets, handbags, wallets, little plastic bags of change looking for the fare.

Flat cash fare is the only way some of these people will learn to speed themselves up.

AngryLips · 04-01-2015 1:19pm

Aard wrote: »

This is so true. People just want to get from a to b. The exact vehicle they're sitting on is completely irrelevant to most.

I think it is relevant to a degree ...but the thing is DB busses are all really new, modern and bright now so from a passenger point of view the experience is pretty consistent and to a good quality. Gone are the days where you'd be so unlucky to get one of those busses that they had to repaint from the muck green livery into the new colour scheme.

cdebru · 04-01-2015 3:54pm

AngryLips wrote: »

I think it is relevant to a degree ...but the thing is DB busses are all really new, modern and bright now so from a passenger point of view the experience is pretty consistent and to a good quality. Gone are the days where you'd be so unlucky to get one of those busses that they had to repaint from the muck green livery into the new colour scheme.

Exactly there is no huge qualitative difference between an AV and an SG.

Muahahaha · 04-01-2015 4:02pm

Great OP KCB, I agree with much of it especially comments on RPT1.

On the 140 you say

Route 140 – Extend to Belfield along route 142

I wish they would extend the far end of the 140 from its current terminus in IKEA into the airport itself. As it is its only approx three miles from the airport yet the whole of Finglas/Ballymun have to get a bus into town and another out to the airport. From where I sit right now I can look out my window and see planes taking off only a few miles away from me yet to get there by Dublin Bus would take me approx 1 hour 10 minutes. Extending the 140 route by three miles into the airport would immediately give 50,000 people in the D11 area a link to the airport. A further 50,000 over in Blanch would also benefit as theres a route from Connolly Hospital that crosses over the 140 so those people could get to the airport a lot quicker than they can now.

It seems such a simple thing to do, extend a route by three miles and immediately 100,000 people have direct access to a quick link. No doubt though the politics behind it is far more complex

dublinbusdude · 04-01-2015 4:06pm

What does people think about the service on a Sunday?

Muahahaha · 04-01-2015 4:54pm

dublinbusdude wrote: »

What does people think about the service on a Sunday?

Generally not great, sometimes I've waited up to 40 minutes for a bus on a Sunday, these days I'm more likely to cycle than take the risk of that happening again.

AFAIR shops have been opening in Dublin city center on a Sunday since about 2004. Sunday has now become a busier shopping day in the city centre than Saturday yet in the 10 years of shops opening it seems Dublin Bus is only operating half a service with 30 minute intervals between buses pretty common.

Muahahaha · 04-01-2015 5:02pm

poggyone wrote: »

Something for you to do monday morning/evening on your DB commute, observe the many idiots in the queue to board who wait until they are up to the ticket machine before they start looking for their Money/Ticket.
These people are the cause of increased dwell times, the middle doors is just something that has been repeated so many times here that it is now taken as fact.

I think both the middle doors and the ticket system are to blame for longer dwell times. If I was going to guess and apportion it though I would say that it is 70-30 in favour of the ticketing system. If we had cashless payment with no interaction with the driver then that would speed things up considerably. But by the same token routes that go through the city center typically stop at 2 or 3 particulary busy stops whereby an entire Q of people has to wait for people to disembark from the upper deck. It wastes maybe 40-60 seconds each time which had the middle doors been in use probably would have allowed the first few people get on whilst others were still getting off.

The answer to the dwell times is both middle doors and the ticketing system, not either/or IMO I think why the middle doors gets mentioned so much on Boards is that people can see them there and they're not being used so automatically question why they aren't being used when they would clearly go some way to reducing dwell times. Maybe the middle doors are only 30% of the solution (or maybe even less) but they are still nonetheless part of the solution yet they go unused, seems bizarre IMO.

dublinbusdude · 04-01-2015 6:15pm

I think Sunday Service in part of the City isnt great but I think in general all the timetables need to be changed to suit the public!

coylemj · 04-01-2015 6:17pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Generally not great, sometimes I've waited up to 40 minutes for a bus on a Sunday, these days I'm more likely to cycle than take the risk of that happening again.

Do you stand at a bus stop for up to 40 mins? RTPI should have fixed that a while back. Whether you like it or not, less people use buses on Sundays.

Muahahaha wrote: »

Sunday has now become a busier shopping day in the city centre than Saturday .....

Rubbish. Why does the city council make so many streets free for parking on Sunday?

Urethra Franklin · 04-01-2015 6:24pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Great OP KCB, I agree with much of it especially comments on RPT1.

On the 140 you say

I wish they would extend the far end of the 140 from its current terminus in IKEA into the airport itself. As it is its only approx three miles from the airport yet the whole of Finglas/Ballymun have to get a bus into town and another out to the airport. From where I sit right now I can look out my window and see planes taking off only a few miles away from me yet to get there by Dublin Bus would take me approx 1 hour 10 minutes. Extending the 140 route by three miles into the airport would immediately give 50,000 people in the D11 area a link to the airport. A further 50,000 over in Blanch would also benefit as theres a route from Connolly Hospital that crosses over the 140 so those people could get to the airport a lot quicker than they can now.

It seems such a simple thing to do, extend a route by three miles and immediately 100,000 people have direct access to a quick link. No doubt though the politics behind it is far more complex

I'd love this, for all of the Harristown terminating routes. Could really help those who live along the 13 and 27B also. Or even if they got on to the Airport about installing a gate in the fence of the Long-term blue carpark. It's right next to the Harristown bus stop so DB passengers could use the airport shuttle to connect to the airport.

LXFlyer · 04-01-2015 6:29pm

dublinbusdude wrote: »

I think Sunday Service in part of the City isnt great but I think in general all the timetables need to be changed to suit the public!

By and large the Sunday service matches the demand.

I do believe that there ought to be an earlier service on the main core route along each QBC starting from 07:00 every 30 minutes.

Certain cross-city routes could do with an increase in frequency later in the day, the 16 certainly springs to mind.

Beyond that though, I don't really see where there is a need to increase the service, certainly not to Saturday levels.

dublinbusdude · 04-01-2015 6:37pm

coylemj wrote: »

Do you stand at a bus stop for up to 40 mins? RTPI should have fixed that a while back. Whether you like it or not, less people use buses on Sundays.

Thats not true! Last Sunday I was going into the town from Aylesbury & the 49 I was on was busy & the same with the one going back home.

The 49, 54a & 65b are hourly in both ways on a Sunday and its really bad which needs to be changed!

As per to my first post on the fourm; People work 5/7 (5 days over 7 days a week) so Dublin Bus really needs to do an rethink on Sunday times!!

coylemj · 04-01-2015 6:50pm

dublinbusdude wrote: »

As per to my first post on the fourm; People work 5/7 (5 days over 7 days a week) so Dublin Bus really needs to do an rethink on Sunday times!!

We're not all Gardai and nurses or working in retail. Whether you like it or not, less people work on Sundays.

Even most hospitals are less busy on Sundays because virtually all of the consultants are off.

Amirani · 04-01-2015 6:54pm

lxflyer wrote: »

By and large the Sunday service matches the demand.

I do believe that there ought to be an earlier service on the main core route along each QBC starting from 07:00 every 30 minutes.

Certain cross-city routes could do with an increase in frequency later in the day, the 16 certainly springs to mind.

Beyond that though, I don't really see where there is a need to increase the service, certainly not to Saturday levels.

My only issue with the Sunday service is the start time. 08:20 for example on the 16 is way too late. If you're getting a flight, that rules out public transport from South Dublin for any flight leaving earlier than 11am or so. Same goes for anyone who starts work at 9 on Sunday. Even if there was one bus at 7am and then none until 8:20am would be fine by me. Current frequency is probably okay given the demand.

LXFlyer · 04-01-2015 7:03pm

dublinbusdude wrote: »

Thats not true! Last Sunday I was going into the town from Aylesbury & the 49 I was on was busy & the same with the one going back home.

The 49, 54a & 65b are hourly in both ways on a Sunday and its really bad which needs to be changed!

As per to my first post on the fourm; People work 5/7 (5 days over 7 days a week) so Dublin Bus really needs to do an rethink on Sunday times!!

Firstly how busy were they?

But would they be as busy if it were every 30 minutes?

Lets be honest both the 49 and 65b complement one another for much of their route and effectively offer a combined 30 minute frequency from the city - I don't think Firhouse and Ballycullen need more than that?

The 15 is also an option for many Ballycullen residents.

poggyone · 04-01-2015 7:21pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Generally not great, sometimes I've waited up to 40 minutes for a bus on a Sunday, these days I'm more likely to cycle than take the risk of that happening again.

Just check the time table, no need to wait around for 40 minutes.
I have driven a bus on hundreds of sundays, the streets of dublin are very quite until around 11am thats when people start to go out.
It would be a waste of money to run a higher frequency earlier in the morning, no where near the passengers to require more buses.

Muahahaha · 04-01-2015 7:45pm

coylemj wrote: »

Do you stand at a bus stop for up to 40 mins? RTPI should have fixed that a while back. Whether you like it or not, less people use buses on Sundays.

If buses show up on RPT1 and then dissappear again there isn't much the customer can do about it- when it happens the system itself becomes one of disinformation and spreads confusion to commuters.

I don't think you'll find many people who use the bus on Sundays who think it is a *good* service, at least not in comparison with the crowds that are in town. All the shops are wedged with people out shopping for the day but come 4-5pm when many people want to go home there always seems to be large gaps in service. IMO the frequency of buses on a Sunday doesn't reflect that there has been a large scale shift in Irish habits over the last 10 years, our new Church is the shopping center and DB has yet to truly acknowledge that, instead they run a service when is more akin to when the shops didnt open on Sundays at all.

Anyway past experience of waiting and waiting for buses on a Sunday particulary has shown me that I'm often better off cycling. I can cover the 9km into town in 24 minutes on a good day, which is quicker than the bus can do it and nor does it cost me €5.60 return to town and back. I'm also three stone lighter and a lot fitter to boot

Muahahaha · 04-01-2015 7:52pm

poggyone wrote: »

Just check the time table, no need to wait around for 40 minutes.
I have driven a bus on hundreds of sundays, the streets of dublin are very quite until around 11am thats when people start to go out.
It would be a waste of money to run a higher frequency earlier in the morning, no where near the passengers to require more buses.

In fairness the times Ive had to wait up to 40 minutes it was more to do with me just missing a bus but then the next scheduled service not running. Its immensely frustrating.

Agree with you on the morning thing, while some may argue that at least one earlier service is needed nothing really gets going till about 11-12pm as you say. People seem to come into town from about 11 and go home about 4-6pm, its a shopping day out for the family, friends, etc, After 6 or 6.30ish things seem to die down again but up until that point I think there is a demand for increased frequencies.

devnull · 04-01-2015 8:02pm

Diego Simeone wrote: »

My only issue with the Sunday service is the start time. 08:20 for example on the 16 is way too late. If you're getting a flight, that rules out public transport from South Dublin for any flight leaving earlier than 11am or so. Same goes for anyone who starts work at 9 on Sunday. Even if there was one bus at 7am and then none until 8:20am would be fine by me. Current frequency is probably okay given the demand.

Aircoach serve quite a big part of South Dublin on their three routes but obviously not all.

dublinbusdude · 04-01-2015 8:02pm

49 had a good load going in as far as Harolds Cross going into town; coming out it was far as Old Bawn Road (Old Mill)

LXFlyer · 04-01-2015 8:06pm

dublinbusdude wrote: »

49 had a good load going in as far as Harolds Cross going into town; coming out it was far as Old Bawn Road (Old Mill)

A good loading doesn't necessarily mean that doubling the frequency is needed though.

Muahahaha · 04-01-2015 8:35pm

lxflyer wrote: »

A good loading doesn't necessarily mean that doubling the frequency is needed though.

Would you agree that the demand is there (at least between 12-6pm) to increase frequency, even by 25% ?

LXFlyer · 04-01-2015 9:25pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Would you agree that the demand is there (at least between 12-6pm) to increase frequency, even by 25% ?

It depends on the route.

I do think that the 16 should increase to every 15 minutes rather than every 20, and it should start much earlier given it is the main route to/from the airport.

Most of the other core routes are every 15-20 minutes and I don't really see a need to increase them beyond that.

Aard · 04-01-2015 9:38pm

I wonder whether would people would accept it if the costs of increasing the Sunday service was reflected in fares?

pclive · 05-01-2015 10:53am

It is allready planned to extend the 46a to Parkgate street. The bus cage on Parkgate Street outbound has already been extended to cater for the extra buses.
No timeframe for when the extension is to begin though

StreetLight · 05-01-2015 11:06am

I would like to see a route numbering tidy-up. If the 46a is to be changed again, then just drop the 'a' and make it a plain 46.

stehyl15 · 29-03-2015 1:20pm

Extend the 4 to Cornelscourt? Cornelscourt is already very well connected with the 145 also the 46a and the Luas aren't too far away

MGWR · 29-03-2015 8:03pm

StreetLight wrote: »

I would like to see a route numbering tidy-up. If the 46a is to be changed again, then just drop the 'a' and make it a plain 46.

Yes; a number of alpha suffixes have to go, what with the 77A being left on its own when the 27 absorbed the 77 (of course, they could have the 27A on the north side absorb the 77A, solving that); the 45A too, since the old 45 is gone; when the 29A was extended to Baldoyle, it was supposed to become the 29, so get back to that.

MGWR · 29-03-2015 8:06pm

Aard wrote: »

I wonder whether would people would accept it if the costs of increasing the Sunday service was reflected in fares?

If there really is demand, then the costs are self-supporting, one might think?

stehyl15 · 29-03-2015 9:28pm

MGWR wrote: »

Yes; a number of alpha suffixes have to go, what with the 77A being left on its own when the 27 absorbed the 77 (of course, they could have the 27A on the north side absorb the 77A, solving that); the 45A too, since the old 45 is gone; when the 29A was extended to Baldoyle, it was supposed to become the 29, so get back to that.

I think it would be a good idea to say drop the 1 from say the 145 making it the 45

LXFlyer · 29-03-2015 9:56pm

Generally speaking, changing bus route numbers is something done as a last resort because what it generally leads to is unnecessary confusion amongst customers.

Obviously where routes are merged it's unavoidable, but where the routes are staying the same, generally it's better to leave the numbers alone and avoid confusion amongst customers, even where there are alpha suffixes involved.

Retaining the numbers doesn't harm anyone, so I don't see what purpose renumbering routes unnecessarily would serve.

noelfirl · 29-03-2015 10:19pm

Dumping the a on the 46a and others could allow thicker rendering of the number on the front display for visual identification purposes. Ditto why the need to have the 120, 122, 123, 130 etc. when you could have the 20, 22, 23, 30 rendered better.

end of the road · 29-03-2015 10:37pm

i agree. for example where there is an a, change it to the next number up instead. so 25 a would become 25, 25b (if it still exists) will become 26, 26 27 and so on. but sure, its not the end of the world either way

cdebru · 30-03-2015 12:41pm

end of the road wrote: »

i agree. for example where there is an a, change it to the next number up instead. so 25 a would become 25, 25b (if it still exists) will become 26, 26 27 and so on. but sure, its not the end of the world either way

Sounds like a great way to cause mass confusion there is already a 26 and a 27 so lots of people sitting on a bus to Lucan but wanting to go to Tallaght :-(

If you were starting from scratch, you would do things differently but we aren't and it really should be avoided, when the 77 changed to 27 there was a significant drop in ridership not in Jobstown where people had no choice, but in areas where the 27 shared running with other routes, it took a few weeks before most people didn't stand back on the crumlin road and wait for a bus with a number they recognised.

LXFlyer · 30-03-2015 2:03pm

cdebru wrote: »

Sounds like a great way to cause mass confusion there is already a 26 and a 27 so lots of people sitting on a bus to Lucan but wanting to go to Tallaght :-(

If you were starting from scratch, you would do things differently but we aren't and it really should be avoided, when the 77 changed to 27 there was a significant drop in ridership not in Jobstown where people had no choice, but in areas where the 27 shared running with other routes, it took a few weeks before most people didn't stand back on the crumlin road and wait for a bus with a number they recognised.

Precisely my point - unless routes are merging and a number is change is absolutely necessary, changing route numbers causes unnecessary confusion.

Aard · 30-03-2015 3:20pm

There's a lot to be said for retaining the numbering system from a costs POV as well. Updating all the literature and website isn't free. Also, changing numbers could prove confusing for the occasional bus user and could even discourage use.

stehyl15 · 30-03-2015 3:37pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Precisely my point - unless routes are merging and a number is change is absolutely necessary, changing route numbers causes unnecessary confusion.

Yeah but people would get used to it after about a week also they could put up notices at bus stop to tell passengers about the changes

howiya · 30-03-2015 3:40pm

stehyl15 wrote: »

Yeah but people would get used to it after about a week also they could put up notices at bus stop to tell passengers about the changes

All at additional cost. I don't see the benefit in changing route numbers

LXFlyer · 30-03-2015 3:45pm

stehyl15 wrote: »

Yeah but people would get used to it after about a week also they could put up notices at bus stop to tell passengers about the changes

It actually takes much longer than that. You would be surprised how many people just don't look at notices that are posted at stops.

Maybe it's something that could be looked at when things improves, but with the finances of the company the way they are, unnecessary costs associated with changing route numbers is something that really is to be avoided.

As posted above, apart from unnecessary confusion, it costs money in terms of reprogramming all of the schedules, RTPI, publicity material on stops, notices to publish, and the labour associated with all of that.

It's not something you indulge in on a whim, just because you have a phobia against alpha suffixes as one poster seems to have.

StreetLight · 30-03-2015 5:24pm

I would favour some re-numbering, but in conjunction with a change of routing, or timetabling.

I think some opportunities to do so have been missed. For example when the 54A was extended from The Square to Kiltipper, this necessitated a change of both routing and timetable, so re-numbering the service as a plain 54 could have been done in conjunction.

Having multiple termini on three-digit route numbers is also an ongoing source of confusion for some. For example, besides Route 145 having two regular termini, there are also short workings from Bray to City Centre only and from Heuston to Belfield only during the morning peak. Re-numbering the service as Route 45 with appropriate suffixes would help to clarify destinations:

45 - To Ballywaltrim or to Heuston
45A - As is
45B - To Belfield
45C - To City Centre
45D - To Kilmacanogue.

I see many mystified faces every morning when a short 145 to Belfield turns into the campus, instead continuing straight on towards Stillorgan!

stehyl15 · 03-04-2015 1:08am

I find it weird when you see random 145s displaying city centre

end of the road · 03-04-2015 3:07pm

stehyl15 wrote: »

I find it weird when you see random 145s displaying city centre

probably short workings for various reasons

stehyl15 · 03-04-2015 9:27pm

Another thing the 145 is a particulary bad for is driving around with sorry not in service or even private hire on it when it is actually in service with passengers on it on set down only basis usually on when it shares the QBC with the 46a but there still could be 10 minutes till the the next 46a also what if you want to go to Hueston or the Quays. Another what is with buses driving along the N11 QBC southbound displaying Bray without any route number are these just short workings of the 145 or what.
Lastly its good to see 46a shorts displaying 46c to avoid confusion

end of the road · 03-04-2015 10:58pm

stehyl15 wrote: »

Another thing the 145 is a particulary bad for is driving around with sorry not in service or even private hire on it when it is actually in service with passengers on it on set down only basis usually on when it shares the QBC with the 46a but there still could be 10 minutes till the the next 46a also what if you want to go to Hueston or the Quays. Another what is with buses driving along the N11 QBC southbound displaying Bray without any route number are these just short workings of the 145 or what.
Lastly its good to see 46a shorts displaying 46c to avoid confusion

i don't know about the private hire thing sorry. unless dublin bus vehicles are still being hired out? they used to do it in the past. the set down could be to do with overcrowding but don't know so i won't nor can't confirm. i don't know about busses driving along the n11 without any route number, they could be busses with problems that were taken out of service. i'd agree its good to see c as part of the numbering for short workings, it does give a clue as to the short working

stehyl15 · 04-04-2015 12:34am

end of the road wrote: »

i don't know about the private hire thing sorry. unless dublin bus vehicles are still being hired out? they used to do it in the past. the set down could be to do with overcrowding but don't know so i won't nor can't confirm. i don't know about busses driving along the n11 without any route number, they could be busses with problems that were taken out of service.

According to their website yes they still hire buses but I think private hire and sometimes south coast tour is used as the same thing as out of service at times.
No I think its overcrowding the reason because it usually half full when I see this I dont understand this as the buses still come up on the real time app. As for the buses driving with no number they drive with just Bray on their destination no number whatsoever they at least display 145 Bray which marks it out as a 145 short working

End of Year Review of Dublin Bus

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