Kenny "Put up or shut up" on Tuesday

hotmail.com · 13-06-2010 6:42pm #1

Enda Kenny is to hold a leadership discussion on Tuesday. It follows Richard Bruton's failure to express confidence in Kenny.

Brian Dowling of RTE speculated and basically implied that Bruton will mount a challenge.

Liam Byrne · 13-06-2010 7:30pm

Amazing PR stunt by FF........on the day the Dáil should be discussing the leader of FF and his massive contribution to the current crisis, FG have to sort out a far more minor issue.

Coillte_Bhoy · 14-06-2010 3:37am

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Amazing PR stunt by FF........on the day the Dáil should be discussing the leader of FF and his massive contribution to the current crisis, FG have to sort out a far more minor issue.

How is this a FF pr stunt??? And if it is then fair play it's clever politics

Dirk Gently · 14-06-2010 3:51am

linkehs?

jpfahy · 14-06-2010 10:43am

Wouldn't it be great if today saw the end of Kenny and Cowen. I for one am sick and tired of Cowen's excuses and Kenny's inaction.

They say that the man with the dagger never gets the crown. I wonder would Varadkar have a go at being the unifying leader of FG?

Liam Byrne · 14-06-2010 11:00am

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

How is this a FF pr stunt??? And if it is then fair play it's clever politics

Call me mad if you want, but I can't help thinking that that FF had something to do with the poll results being released exactly when they were. I know it sounds like a conspiracy theory of sorts, but that's the level of distrust they've engrained in me, and this type of dirty misdirection would be right up the street of the crowd that ensured their members weren't around last week, and that the report on miscarriages was released.

And your definition of "clever politics" is obviously completely different to mine. :rolleyes:

"Clever politics" - to me - is not ruining the economy and not having incompetent/corrupt/self-interested [delete as appropriate] individuals at the top, not not voting confidence in them.

Politics is not a game played for the enjoyment of those directly involved.

murrayp4 · 14-06-2010 11:01am

Spectacular own goal by FG. You couldn't make it up...

bijapos · 14-06-2010 11:04am

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Amazing PR stunt by FF........on the day the Dáil should be discussing the leader of FF and his massive contribution to the current crisis, FG have to sort out a far more minor issue.

Yes. How is it an FF stunt? FG called for the motion of no confidence the same week that the polls cam out. Hardly the fault of FF.

Neither is it a minor issue Liam, FG are essentially discussing who will be next Taoiseach.

Bruton could have put a stop to this last week when asked on his position on Kenny. A simple "I back Enda Kenny 100% and believe he should lead us into the next election" would have done. He didn't do this, this is why FG are in the situation that they are. Nobody to blame but themselves really.

I think Kenny should go. Fact that FF have lost 25 percentage points since 2007 and that FG have gained little of that speaks a lot of Kenny. I said it before: Kenny is Neil Kinnock, he made FG electable but the people don't want him as Taoiseach. Its actually better for FG to have this debate now rather than later. Sadly for them it means that if Bruton loses or doesn't go ahead with it he will be inevitably be demoted.

Liam Byrne · 14-06-2010 11:20am

bijapos wrote: »

Yes. How is it an FF stunt? FG called for the motion of no confidence the same week that the polls cam out. Hardly the fault of FF.

FG called for the motion it as soon as they had written expert proof of what the dogs in the street knew; i.e. when the reports were released.

FF conveniently had TDs "on holiday" (despite the fact that holidays don't start for another few weeks.

That delay allows the release of a poll reflecting badly on Kenny.

It's not a definite, but it is representative of how FF work; ignore the problem, deflect attention and blame.

bijapos wrote: »

Neither is it a minor issue Liam, FG are essentially discussing who will be next Taoiseach.

Remind me again how FF chose their current "leader" and Taoiseach ? I didn't see public opinion coming into that scenario, did you ?

Banned Account · 14-06-2010 11:23am

I'll be glad to see the back of FF and have never given them a vote in my life. Now that that is out of the way, I should state that I have never voted FG before either.

I would like to vote FG but to me, Kenny is a stumbling block, he displays no passion for what he is saying - at the moment, I want to have a leader who believes in what he is speaking about.

I think the question of timing is largely irrelevant there is not a hope in hell that the motion of no confidence will be passed, it was a silly idea to call it in the first place - should have kept on the pressure for the bye-elections and then called it.

The fact is that

A) FG truly believe that they can make the country a better place to live

and

The polls suggest that they have a better chance of being the main party if Kenny goes

So, if they are interested in putting the good of the people above party politics they will ask him to step down. If they don't do this, they are putting political allegiences over the common good and I've had enough of that crap to last a lifetime.

scr123 · 14-06-2010 11:40am

murrayp4 wrote: »

Spectacular own goal by FG. You couldn't make it up...

Agree with you totally.
Mind now goes back to John Gormley first day back in Dail after last Local Elections when he was been taunted by the Opposition and he said, to parphrase " When I look over there I know why I wll stay over here ! "

I was fearful the Greens would pull the plug tomorrow but thanks to the lunacy in FG I have relaxed a little bit

People can condemn FF all they like and they are entitled to but holy cow its vital for the country FF stay in power for two more Budgets. An election now if Kenny is shafted will expose the brutal divisions in FG and worse again the irreconcialable divisions between the extreme right wing FG and the extreme left wing of Labour.

Thank you FG, you just may have made your best blunder ever

bijapos · 14-06-2010 12:18pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

FG called for the motion it as soon as they had written expert proof of what the dogs in the street knew; i.e. when the reports were released.

FF conveniently had TDs "on holiday" (despite the fact that holidays don't start for another few weeks.

That delay allows the release of a poll reflecting badly on Kenny.

It's not a definite, but it is representative of how FF work; ignore the problem, deflect attention and blame.

Remind me again how FF chose their current "leader" and Taoiseach ? I didn't see public opinion coming into that scenario, did you ?

Sorry, Liam but I don't get this. Are you telling me that FF organised this poll and the release of it last week? Sorry, but I do not believe this.

And fact is that it is Richard Bruton who has made the FG leadership debate drag on until Tuesday. Like I said, he had the opportunity to put a lid on it on Prime Time on Thursday, he chose not to. You can't blame FF for this.

Coillte_Bhoy · 14-06-2010 2:21pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Call me mad if you want, but I can't help thinking that that FF had something to do with the poll results being released exactly when they were. I know it sounds like a conspiracy theory of sorts, but that's the level of distrust they've engrained in me, and this type of dirty misdirection would be right up the street of the crowd that ensured their members weren't around last week, and that the report on miscarriages was released.

Oh come off it. So you think the newspaper in question and the polling company would have bought into this??

And your definition of "clever politics" is obviously completely different to mine. :rolleyes:

"Clever politics" - to me - is not ruining the economy and not having incompetent/corrupt/self-interested [delete as appropriate] individuals at the top, not not voting confidence in them.

Politics is not a game played for the enjoyment of those directly involved.

It is clever politics in that would be outwitting their opponents. I said nthing of their actual performance in govt or their policies being clever so dont know what you are on about there

For the record i despise the party, always have.

Laminations · 14-06-2010 2:30pm

I don't think Liam is accusing FF of setting up the poll. FF may have used delaying tactics because they knew the poll results coming out at the weekend were going to be a distraction, whether the results were leaked to them beforehand or not, poll results capture the attention of the media. FF delayed discussion of the banking reports and the vote of no confidence, even when the precedent is for these things to trump the order of business

PS FG and Bruton did shoot themselves in the foot but you have to wonder why he was being questioned about Kennys leadership when he was on being interviewed about the banking reports

scr123 · 14-06-2010 3:18pm

First blunder FG ever made was the actual formation of the party. Their whole existence has been a series of blunders but the latest debacle really takes the biscuit. If I was a member or supporter of the party I would cringe with embarrassment.
Its now being suggested that FF are behind the debacle. Surely there is a limit to the fantasies of those who wish to see the demise of FF ?

T runner · 14-06-2010 3:23pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Call me mad if you want, but I can't help thinking that that FF had something to do with the poll results being released exactly when they were. I know it sounds like a conspiracy theory of sorts, but that's the level of distrust they've engrained in me, and this type of dirty misdirection would be right up the street of the crowd that ensured their members weren't around last week, and that the report on miscarriages was released.

Im sorry but this is just another example of the mentality that seeks to blame every single weakness on the opposition on FF or the "stupid electorate". It wont cut it. You are suggesting FF had previous knowledge that Labour would pass FG in this poll and timed its release deliberately?

Did they also make the people in the Poll choose labour to for this express purpose.

Enda Kennys weakness in dealing with Cowan when the recent reports came out was plain for all to see. This FG leadership issue has been on and off for 2 years now. Your theoryis completely irrational.

"Clever politics" - to me - is not ruining the economy and not having incompetent/corrupt/self-interested [delete as appropriate] individuals at the top, not not voting confidence in them.

Again the irrational FG argument that it is not possible for the government to do or say anything right because: they were the ones who caused this mess.

FF believed that the boom had to continue at all costs. They got into bed with the capitalists, believed everything they were told by their banker/builder friends who had nothing but self interest at heart.

And you know what? Judging by Fine Gaels policies at the time they also believed the Tiger had to and would continue at all costs.

Labour alone have acquited themselves well and would improve social issues in this country...you know, child care, poverty, equality.

FF may have once had a social conscience but it is long gone, they have let down the people they once claimed to support. Social issues, poverty, child care etc was never big on FGs aganda ofcourse.......

Laminations · 14-06-2010 3:28pm

scr123 wrote: »

First blunder FG ever made was the actual formation of the party. Their whole existence has been a series of blunders but the latest debacle really takes the biscuit.

Exaggerate much? Its a possible leadership challenge, thats all. Takes what biscuit? Yes the party and Bruton may have shot themselves in the foot by dragging this up this week, a week in which they should be discussing the banking reports and debating Brian Cowens competency as Taoiseach, a man strongly fingered in the reports for exacerbating our downturn, despite his protestations of 'international factors' for the past two years. FG shooting themselves in the foot does not overshadow the fact the FF shot the celtic tiger in the head, nor is this the debacle that most takes the biscuit. Your unwaivering support for FF quite frankly takes more biscuit.

And I'd prefer to see this leadership challenge (messy and ill-timed as it is) than the blind shows of confidence we get from FF, confidence in liars, confidence in thieves, confidence in wasters and confidence in incompetence. And you have confidence in them

Laminations · 14-06-2010 3:32pm

T runner wrote: »

Enda Kennys weakness in dealing with Cowan when the recent reports came out was plain for all to see.

What was weak about it? He called for a motion of no confidence, what should he have done? I'm quite sure if he had been more agressive you'd criticise that too or say something along the lines of political point scoring, the line that the vacuous Coughlan tried to use to deflect the heat

So, what should he have done??

Banned Account · 14-06-2010 3:41pm

Laminations wrote: »

What was weak about it? He called for a motion of no confidence, what should he have done? I'm quite sure if he had been more agressive you'd criticise that too or say something along the lines of political point scoring, the line that the vacuous Coughlan tried to use to deflect the heat

So, what should he have done??

Well he definately should not have called for a no confidence vote. The numbers would tell anyone that it will be lost and then another can't be tabled for at least 6 months. He should have ratcheted up the pressure for the bye-elections, at the same time, grilling FF even harder on the reports' findings. The no-confidence motion should have been called after the bye-elections.

I think that a lot of potential voters are still disappointed by how badly he fared out in the debates with Aherne - he just seems to lethargic and distant.

Laminations · 14-06-2010 3:59pm

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

Well he definately should not have called for a no confidence vote. The numbers would tell anyone that it will be lost and then another can't be tabled for at least 6 months. He should have ratcheted up the pressure for the bye-elections, at the same time, grilling FF even harder on the reports' findings. The no-confidence motion should have been called after the bye-elections.

And these bye-elections are happening when?? Who is to say that the media wont have moved on from the banking reports by the time FF deem it appropriete to give representation to all constituencies? And how does one ratchet up the pressure, it is easy to say 'go and ratchet up the pressure' but how? They were denying debating time in the Dail last week for the banking reports and I'm assuming they though that tabling a motion of no confidence would bring the situation to the top of Dail business, as is the precedent. FF delayed it all

Banned Account · 14-06-2010 4:11pm

Laminations wrote: »

And these bye-elections are happening when?? Who is to say that the media wont have moved on from the banking reports by the time FF deem it appropriete to give representation to all constituencies? And how does one ratchet up the pressure, it is easy to say 'go and ratchet up the pressure' but how? They were denying debating time in the Dail last week for the banking reports and I'm assuming they though that tabling a motion of no confidence would bring the situation to the top of Dail business, as is the precedent. FF delayed it all

What about taking a constitutional challenge to the courts - argue that it is a matter of national importance and expedite the process.

Laminations · 14-06-2010 4:23pm

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

What about taking a constitutional challenge to the courts - argue that it is a matter of national importance and expedite the process.

And if they have gotten legal advice saying this is a no go as there is no allotted timeframe for bye-elections in our constitution, then what??

Banned Account · 14-06-2010 4:47pm

Laminations wrote: »

And if they have gotten legal advice saying this is a no go as there is no allotted timeframe for bye-elections in our constitution, then what??

Well considering the fact that the constitution dictates that there shall not be less than one TD per 30,000 of population and in donegal south-west there is a population of 71,039 (2006 census) and only 2 sitting TD's I would imagine that a challenge would be possible. Would it be successful? - probably not, but the government would have to defend the fact that they are refusing to hold the bye elections despite this.

Waterford has a population of 100,125 and only 3 sitting TD's

Dublin South has a population of 212,758 and only 4 sitting TD's.

1° Dáil Éireann shall be composed of members who represent constituencies determined by law.

2° The number of members shall from time to time be fixed by law, but the total number of members of Dáil Éireann shall not be fixed at less than one member for each thirty thousand of the population, or at more than one member for each twenty thousand of the population.

Looking at the above, the way the two paragrahps are phrased could easily be deemed to suggest that the constitution is more concerned with the representation within the constituencies than with the national population.

Judgement Day · 14-06-2010 4:56pm

Richard Bruton sacked from front bench - game on! Paddy Power have them both at 2/1 to be the next Taoiseach. I having some of Kenny at that price - beats betting on rugby.

rightwingdub · 14-06-2010 5:16pm

scr123 wrote: »

Agree with you totally.
Mind now goes back to John Gormley first day back in Dail after last Local Elections when he was been taunted by the Opposition and he said, to parphrase " When I look over there I know why I wll stay over here ! "

I was fearful the Greens would pull the plug tomorrow but thanks to the lunacy in FG I have relaxed a little bit

People can condemn FF all they like and they are entitled to but holy cow its vital for the country FF stay in power for two more Budgets. An election now if Kenny is shafted will expose the brutal divisions in FG and worse again the irreconcialable divisions between the extreme right wing FG and the extreme left wing of Labour.

Thank you FG, you just may have made your best blunder ever

FG are not an extreme right wing party, by my standards when it comes to economics they are a socialist party, as for Labour they are a loony left party who will be brutally exposed as completely out of their depth if they get into government.

Would you not support an FF-FG government?

Liam Byrne · 14-06-2010 5:19pm

Laminations wrote: »

What was weak about it? He called for a motion of no confidence, what should he have done? I'm quite sure if he had been more agressive you'd criticise that too or say something along the lines of political point scoring, the line that the vacuous Coughlan tried to use to deflect the heat

So, what should he have done??

+1 (thanks for quoting the post, Laminations - I'd have missed it otherwise)

The words "attack" and "witch-hunt" have been bandied about for far less forthright truths, so I'm sure that FF would be claiming even more victimisation if Kenny was "stronger" in what he said.

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

Well he definately should not have called for a no confidence vote. The numbers would tell anyone that it will be lost and then another can't be tabled for at least 6 months.

Maybe he was hoping that a few FF & Green members would finally stand up and be counted, and would actually develop a conscience ?

The bottom line is that FF blocked yet another democratic process.

RATM · 14-06-2010 5:26pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Call me mad if you want, but I can't help thinking that that FF had something to do with the poll results being released exactly when they were. I know it sounds like a conspiracy theory of sorts, but that's the level of distrust they've engrained in me, and this type of dirty misdirection would be right up the street of the crowd that ensured their members weren't around last week, and that the report on miscarriages was released.

Couldn't go with this- the person who has ultimate control of the timing of the opinion poll being released is one Geraldine Kennedy, Editor of the Irish Times. Thats the same Geraldine Kennedy who had her phone tapped by Haughey and who relentlessely pursued Ahern in her editorials about his financial problems. She would love nothing more than to see FF out of power so I find it hard to believe she would have colluded with the FF press office on the timing of the poll.

Liam Byrne · 14-06-2010 5:56pm

RATM wrote: »

Couldn't go with this- the person who has ultimate control of the timing of the opinion poll being released is one Geraldine Kennedy, Editor of the Irish Times. Thats the same Geraldine Kennedy who had her phone tapped by Haughey and who relentlessely pursued Ahern in her editorials about his financial problems. She would love nothing more than to see FF out of power so I find it hard to believe she would have colluded with the FF press office on the timing of the poll.

I know it's a stretch, believe me.....I only commented that I wouldn't put it past FF at this stage, and that it wouldn't surprise me....not that I actually believed it.

The real issue was Cowen and his Ceann Comhairle blocking the vote on Cowen last Thursday because of FF "holidays" that shouldn't start until next month.

All that said, there's no point in blaming FF......whatever about their despicable tactics, FG made their own mess due to crap timing and judgement, and I suspect will pay dearly.

Indeed, I've a sickening feeling that the whole country could pay dearly, because I'd be afraid that some people could well revert to being FF voters after this.

T runner · 14-06-2010 10:04pm

Laminations wrote: »

What was weak about it? He called for a motion of no confidence, what should he have done? I'm quite sure if he had been more agressive you'd criticise that too or say something along the lines of political point scoring, the line that the vacuous Coughlan tried to use to deflect the heat

So, what should he have done??

He tried to say a lot more than make his motion for no confidence although it was quite unmemorable. It was live on radio, massive public audience great oppurtunity and he basically dithered a few criticisms.
The man cant communicate. The report said that Cowen had a large part in the crash. He failed even to get this across.

He didnt need to be aggressive: he needed to communicate the part of the report that implicated Cowen to a listening public audience. Thats all. He failed. Thousands of people heard him failing.

Kenny "Put up or shut up" on Tuesday

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