docking tails!

ashblag · 18-01-2011 8:31pm #1

Just back from a walk with my pup. A guy passed said he's nice but he looks stupid with his long tail. How ignorant!

The dog was born this way,it's not right hacking bit off just to improve an animals apperance!

I'm shocked people still do this.

What's your opinion on this?

Shanao · 18-01-2011 8:34pm

Just to warn you, this is going to end up in a big long debate, it always does.

I absolutely abhor the idea of docking tails. It is unnecessary and cruel. Not to mention that dogs look so much better with a long tail. I know a woman with two rotts with their full tails and they are magnificent dogs.

fatmammycat · 18-01-2011 8:42pm

ashblag wrote: »

The dog was born this way,it's not right hacking bit off just to improve an animals apperance!

Plus I don't think it does 'improve' the look of a dog. I am totally against it and ear cropping.

belongtojazz · 18-01-2011 8:48pm

On this subject, I came across something today that really saddened me. An old colleague of mine has just got a pup in the UK which was bred to have no tail.

It is a "teacup" sized Jack Russell. How on earth do you breed out a tail??? and more importantly why on earth would you do it

ashblag · 18-01-2011 8:48pm

Shanao wrote: »

Just to warn you, this is going to end up in a big long debate, it always does.

I absolutely abhor the idea of docking tails. It is unnecessary and cruel. Not to mention that dogs look so much better with a long tail. I know a woman with two rotts with their full tails and they are magnificent dogs.

Hi Shanao...I was just shocked..thought this had died out years ago.

The thought of having it done never even entered my head. Was never done to any of our dogs at home growing up!

Shanao · 18-01-2011 8:53pm

Only a couple of weeks ago i was in a petshop talking to one of the people working there when a woman came in and (quite rudely) interrupted to ask if she could put up an ad for JRT puppies. The woman working there said sure, then asked her about the pups and she went on about the pups for a while before finally saying that she had docked them herself. Both myself and the clerk actually walked away from her. If you look on donedeal there are still plenty of dogs being sold with docked tails despite the fact that most vets wont do it now. So these people are doing it themselves, sans anaesthetic. Now doesn't that sound lovely?

LB6 · 18-01-2011 9:00pm

Shanao "most vets wont do it now. So these people are doing it themselves, sans anaesthetic"

So there are some that will do it. How do you know it's "Sans" anaesthetic?

You can't paint everyone with the same brush!

Shanao · 18-01-2011 9:03pm

Yes some vets will still do it, I've witnessed it being done myself at a vets despite me begging the owner of the 12 week old boxer pup not to get it done. What i meant is the owners who are doing it with hedge clippers etc are doing it without anaesthetic

LB6 · 18-01-2011 9:09pm

OK now a "hedge clippers" is a totally different matter completely. That's just vile. Then I'd have issues.

But I think if people really want a docked tail on their pet, that would be entirely their choice and not something that I think would be my place to intervene on, especially if it's done in a safe, controlled, sterilized environment such as a vets.

tk123 · 18-01-2011 9:12pm

ashblag wrote: »

Just back from a walk with my pup. A guy passed said he's nice but he looks stupid with his long tail. How ignorant!

Ah how can somebody say a lovely puppy looks stupid - all puppies are cute! Some owners are extremely ignorant OP - IGNORE them cos he's your puppy and this type of person will always find something wrong with your dog and have to point it out- because they're just jealous lol. Our guy is a retriever and has a big basil brush tail - i love long waggy tails on dogs.

Shanao · 18-01-2011 9:13pm

Unfortunately, that is how some people do it. Or with a stanley blade. People seem to assume that its not going to hurt the pups, despite the fact that it is a limb. I have problems with docking because it is unnecessary and painful. Maybe I'm just biased because even now, three years later, I still cant the sound of that boxer pup's screams as its tail was cut off out of my head.

LB6 · 18-01-2011 9:22pm

Are you saying that the vet didn't give that boxer a general or even a local anaesthetic for that procedure? If the pup was crying, would suggest a blade was used. Name and shame him!

Vets should be using the bands in this day and age - no pain at all. It's like tying the umbilical chord on a baby - it stops the supply of blood to the item and will drop off without pain.

Shanao · 18-01-2011 9:25pm

It had a local but that certainly isn't enough for something like amputation

LB6 · 18-01-2011 9:34pm

The more I think about it - docking's are normally done in the first wk of life. A GA would more than likely have killed the pup.

I'd be interested to know if that vet still practises docking and has he/she moved with the times and now uses the painless banding method...

ISDW · 18-01-2011 9:37pm

LB6 wrote: »

The more I think about it - docking's are normally done in the first wk of life. A GA would more than likely have killed the pup.

I'd be interested to know if that vet still practises docking and has he/she moved with the times and now uses the painless banding method...

How do you know its painless? I thought the banding method was the old fashioned way. If the vet has moved with the times, then they won't be docking tails at all.

A GA wouldn't have killed the pup, its not unknown for pups that young to have to undergo surgical procedures that necessitate the use of GA.

Shanao · 18-01-2011 9:39pm

Banding is the old-fashioned way of doing and can end up doing a lot of damage. Think about it, its the same as if you put an elastic band around your finger until the blood supply is cut off and the finger falls off. Do you really think that'll be painless? Not to mention if it gets an infection, which most of them do.

I dont know if he still does, I left soon after that and haven't gone near the practice since.

wolfpawnat · 18-01-2011 9:40pm

My housemate is a vet student in UCD, they have studied in college that it damages the spinal cord!!!!! And the "painless" thing, no it is not painless, it is like tying an elastic band around your leg and letting it rot off!

I think it should be mandatory for vets to report docked tails and the buyer to be fined heavily! Also get them to name the breeder and fine them too! Take away the demand and the breeders WILL stop!

LB6 · 18-01-2011 9:44pm

ISDW "How do you know its painless?"
I don't know for sure - do you know that banding hurts? It sure as hell is better than having a blade cut through your spinal chord.

"If the vet has moved with the times, then they won't be docking tails at all."
That's your opinion. Doesn't make it law. I was making a comparison between a blade and a band.

"A GA wouldn't have killed the pup, its not unknown for pups that young to have to undergo surgical procedures that necessitate the use of GA."
OK, but isn't a GA only done in extreme cases?

ISDW · 18-01-2011 9:56pm

LB6 wrote: »

ISDW "How do you know its painless?"
I don't know for sure - do you know that banding hurts? It sure as hell is better than having a blade cut through your spinal chord.

"If the vet has moved with the times, then they won't be docking tails at all."
That's your opinion. Doesn't make it law. I was making a comparison between a blade and a band.

"A GA wouldn't have killed the pup, its not unknown for pups that young to have to undergo surgical procedures that necessitate the use of GA."
OK, but isn't a GA only done in extreme cases?

The vets council in Ireland now recommend that vets don't do it, so thats what I mean by moving with the times. Its not illegal, but is frowned upon by most vets. Do I know if banding hurts? Yes, because if you tie a rubber band around your finger, as the blood supply gets cut off, it hurts, same thing surely?

Surely both methods must hurt, anything that cuts a part of the body off must hurt?

GAs are used for neutering, x raying, and various other operations, obviously it always carries a risk, as it does in humans, but very seldom does it kill the animal.

wolfpawnat · 18-01-2011 10:02pm

I would assume that the GA is calculated to the weight of the animal it is going to be used on surely? After all what would knock out a Yorkie put couldn't possibly knock out a Great Dane pup?

portgirl123 · 18-01-2011 10:03pm

i hate docking, i would rather dogs were left the way they were born with their beautiful tails, but reading through this and other threads about tail docking i think it doesnt matter what the arguments are, for either for or against tail docking very few ppl will change their minds. my concerns with tail docking becoming against the law and vets stop doing it, is that id imagine that more and more ppl will start docking tails themselves and more dogs will end up with infections and worst. i know ppl will say if breeders/owners dock tails they will be fined but in reallity how many councils or whoever will enforce this law?
Again i am against tail docking this is just what i can imagine will happen

sligopark · 18-01-2011 10:11pm

Shanao wrote: »

Yes some vets will still do it, I've witnessed it being done myself at a vets despite me begging the owner of the 12 week old boxer pup not to get it done.

Hold on a second - isn't it illegal to 'dock' past 5 days old?

LB6 · 18-01-2011 10:23pm

It's called docking up to day 5 - after that it's call amputation.

A ga should have been applied to a 3 month old pup (in my opinion)

Maybe there was an underlying reason for the amputation of the tail at this late date?

Shanao · 18-01-2011 10:45pm

Not sure if its illegal or not after 5 days, but the owners wanted it done because the pup "wasn't a real boxer with a long tail" as they put it.

LB6 · 18-01-2011 10:54pm

That's the thing shanao, it's not illegal at all. It's a moral stance that's recommended and up to the vets then to decide whether they want to practise it or not.

PS - Don't blame you for not going back to that vets if the pup was 3 mths old, and felt pain. The IDLTLOT idiots should have been refused at 3 months. There should also be an upper age limit on it.

Would you operate on a 3 month old child with just a local? Then again - we go to the dentist and get extractions/fillings etc with locals. It's up to the individual how they see it.

Zapperzy · 18-01-2011 10:59pm

belongtojazz wrote: »

On this subject, I came across something today that really saddened me. An old colleague of mine has just got a pup in the UK which was bred to have no tail.

It is a "teacup" sized Jack Russell. How on earth do you breed out a tail??? and more importantly why on earth would you do it

There are breeds with a natural bobtail I think, that sounds a bit suspect to me, they could have brought them over to Ireland to have them docked and brought them back again. I didn't think it was possible to breed a tail out of them.

LB6 wrote: »

Shanao "most vets wont do it now. So these people are doing it themselves, sans anaesthetic"

So there are some that will do it. How do you know it's "Sans" anaesthetic?

You can't paint everyone with the same brush!

As far as I know only a vet can administer a local anaesthetic such as lignocaine, I don't think they are allowed to just hand out bottles of the stuff. And obviously only a vet can do a GA. So they must have been done with no anaesthetic unless they found a vet who would give them a bottle of local.

Shanao wrote: »

Yes some vets will still do it, I've witnessed it being done myself at a vets despite me begging the owner of the 12 week old boxer pup not to get it done. What i meant is the owners who are doing it with hedge clippers etc are doing it without anaesthetic

12 weeks old :eek:, I thought that would have to be done under GA by law as it is an amputation. I would presume any vet doing it without GA would be severly reprimanded by the VCI.

LB6 wrote: »

The more I think about it - docking's are normally done in the first wk of life. A GA would more than likely have killed the pup.

I'd be interested to know if that vet still practises docking and has he/she moved with the times and now uses the painless banding method...

I have personally witnessed a 12 week old pup put under a GA. In some countries pups and kittens are routinely neutered at this age as far as I know.

sligopark wrote: »

Hold on a second - isn't it illegal to 'dock' past 5 days old?

Thats what I thought. Unless for medical reasons obviously but then would it not be an amputation?

lrushe · 19-01-2011 12:08am

Zapperzy wrote: »

There are breeds with a natural bobtail I think, that sounds a bit suspect to me, they could have brought them over to Ireland to have them docked and brought them back again. I didn't think it was possible to breed a tail out of them.

There is a breed called a Miniature Fox Terrier which can have naturally docked pups and full tailed pups on one litter.

Miniture Fox Terrier.jpg

Zapperzy · 19-01-2011 1:14am

lrushe wrote: »

There is a breed called a Miniature Fox Terrier which can have naturally docked pups and full tailed pups on one litter.

Miniture Fox Terrier.jpg

But is that possible in jack russells?

Interesting though!

carraghsgem · 19-01-2011 2:19am

personnally i believe some working bred dogs should be docked but i see no point in pets being docked except when a dog has an injury to its tail that requires it to be amputated.

docking tails!

Comments