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Road projects for the next 5 years when economy picks up.

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  • 23-03-2009 1:48pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭


    I don't want the pessismistic oh we don't have money. I know we don't have much right now. But it will pick up, when we realise that these bankers just keep this negative cycle going. They print money it didn't dissapear all of a sudden:rolleyes:

    But onto topic
    • Newlands cross
    • Castleisland bypass (starting0
    • Adare Bypass
    • Galway outer bypass
    • N17/N18 motorway
    • NCW N21 bypass
    • Tralee outer ring
    • Cork NRR.
    • Naas M7upgrade to WD3 standard to Newbridge.
    • Macroom bypass
    • Birr bypass
    • M20 Limerick to Cork route
    These are the main key routes that need attention over the next few years.

    (safety hazard and chronic traffic conditions these need attention now)
    Newlands cross
    Adare
    N20 Cork Limerick route
    Naas bypass to M9.

    Naas road is handling 62,000 cars a day and rising above the average growth in A.D.D.T. With the (M)routes coming onstream, it's likely that traffic is going to exasperate. The 3 to 2 lane section carries long queue's now heading soutbound over the Naas bypass. The same faith is with N.C-X. This junction carries 90,000 vehicles over, and 35,000 max for the Belgard road.

    The Newlands cross needs to D4M, not D3M. The road carries an excess of 90.000 vehicles and growing. It needs to be future proofed now. The traffic ratio is under a D4M not D3 with no hard shoulders.

    I ask Dublin city council and the NRA, to grow some ****ing brains. It will not cost any more to build it wider now. If it is costing, it's minimal in difference. Itr would be detremental going back to this junction in 20 years time.

    You obviously learned from my talks on the Redcow two years ago and you listened;). It payed off. You still ****ed up on the Turnpike. I told you this in advanced. You didn't listen to me about that.

    Anyway Hope to see other people giving their views on the current plan to touch up our infastructure over the nest 5 years. We need to spend our money more effiicently and wisely and not fannying about like the NRA usually do with money.

    Mysterious.
    Tagged:


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    Seems like a fairly valid list.

    I was on the M7 on even just a Thursday evening (not Friday) a while back and the traffic levels were shocking from Naas Rd. to M9. At one stage in normal weather conditions the travelling speed was well below 100 km/h and it was quite dicey even at that speed with all the tailgating going on.

    Adare is insane - DC levels of traffic going down the main street of a heritage town? There isn't any excuse for this not having had attention even with the interurbans ongoing - the scale of the project being so much smaller too.

    M20 - well, safety is a concern on this route, although some of it is driving behaviour (much as you get on any rural roads - poor condition but people driving full speed along narrow bendy sections). Traffic is bad, but despite the loss of time to those commuting regularly, it is probably still in the "tolerable" range despite maybe 30 minute delays around Mallow. Obviously I only mean this in a technical high-level planning sense - for people having to use it all the time, it is surely intolerable.

    N17/N18 - I'm not in a position to comment on this through experience, but apart from a needed Claregalway bypass, surely the rest of the route isn't too urgent once the current N18 project ends (bypassing Gort). A cheap relief road for Claregalway might stave this off, and would still be useful (possibly even necessary) once the M17 goes ahead.

    Galway outer bypass - no direct experience.

    Newlands Cross - an annoyance and fairly absurd, but again, at a high-level planning level, is it "intolerable" yet? Ideally it would have been done already, but with constrained resources...

    A missing one that is probably very necessary - the Cork SRR roundabout grade separations - it seems to be lengthy chaos along much of the SRR and Cork's arterial southern routes due to these. I've only the occasional first-hand experience and anecdotal reports of friends in Cork though.

    In summary - I would vote for M7 widening, Adare bypass, Claregalway relief road/bypass, Cork SRR roundabouts and possibly Newlands if we can.

    The rest I think however pressing would have to be postponed in the current circumstances, that's despite my local interest in seeing the M20 go ahead.


  • Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭Joey Joe-Joe Jr


    N11 (Arklow/Rathnew) should have been done long ago! :mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭bill_ashmount


    From a Cork point of view once the M20 to Limerick got built I would be relatively happy with the overall standard of the counties roads. Not sure how necessary the NRR is, although I haven't looked into it.

    I'd love to see them tackle public transport instead, buses, cycle paths etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,013 ✭✭✭yayamark


    Has the Castleisland one started?

    I travel thru most of thos bottlenecks you mention but only at off peak. i refuse to travel on a fri evening or bank holiday weekend. If i had to id travel on a thurs and come back on a tues such is my disdain for sitting in small rural towns for no reason.

    Castleisland would be great but where would they start and finish seem like a big job

    Crusheen, Gort should be done i dont think Claregalway is a must.

    Tuam should be done as well.

    I presume Mountrath and Borris in Ossory are well on there way to been motorwayed!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    mysterious wrote: »
    But onto topic
    • Newlands cross
    • Castleisland bypass (starting0
    • Adare Bypass
    • Galway outer bypass
    • N17/N18 motorway
    • NCW N21 bypass
    • Tralee outer ring
    • Cork NRR.
    • Naas M7upgrade to WD3 standard to Newbridge.
    • Macroom bypass
    • Birr bypass
    • M20 Limerick to Cork route
    These are the main key routes that need attention over the next few years.

    Your missing the N11 gap, longford bypass and claregalway bypass.

    Couldnt disagree with the rest except :D.....
    - I dont think the tralee outer ring is high priority more low priority
    - NCW isint a huge bottleneck as you make it out to be


    In my own opinion, I would be happy if the Newlands X, N11, N17/N18 and M20 schemes stated in the next 5 years being realistic. My main one would be the M17/M18 gort to tuam would be a very big road project for the west of ireland and a huge boost to the economy in that region.

    Also mysterious you make the N21 out to be an awful road in some of your posts here, its not. I would be more worried about local and trunk roads at the minute with the weather that has been faced this year and last year alot of these are in dire conditions need resurfacing badly.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,081 ✭✭✭fricatus


    Seems like a pretty sensible list, especially the M7 widening to 3 lanes as far as the M9.

    New Ross bypass has to be on the list though (it has already been listed as one of the next PPP projects). It's one of the few remaining big bottlenecks in the country.

    N11 gap too, purely for safety reasons.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,681 ✭✭✭jd


    fricatus wrote: »
    N11 gap too, purely for safety reasons.

    And there are already sunk costs-CPO, design, clearance etc


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭D'Peoples Voice


    mysterious wrote: »
    I don't want the pessismistic oh we don't have money. I know we don't have much right now. But it will pick up, when we realise that these bankers just keep this negative cycle going. They print money it didn't dissapear all of a sudden:rolleyes:

    But onto topic
    • Newlands cross
    • Castleisland bypass (starting0
    • Adare Bypass
    • Galway outer bypass
    • N17/N18 motorway
    • NCW N21 bypass
    • Tralee outer ring
    • Cork NRR.
    • Naas M7upgrade to WD3 standard to Newbridge.
    • Macroom bypass
    • Birr bypass
    • M20 Limerick to Cork route
    These are the main key routes that need attention over the next few years.
    FFS Mysterious - there'll be a contract out on your life with lists like this - you haven't included enough projects from the BMW(Northwest) region. The fact that they don't have the traffic volumes is irrelevant in their eyes - don't say i didn't tell you so.
    Approval for projects in Ireland aren't determined by need, they are determined by spreading out red-lines on a map so they look good to voters nationwide!
    We'll have people on shortly shouting
    "down with this sort of thing", "Dublin* gets everything", where Dublin means everywhere outside of the BMW region!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    FFS Mysterious - there'll be a contract out on your life with lists like this

    Yeah , Die Mysterious you biased easterner :)

    My list starting in 5 years . NOTHING will hapen DURING the next 5 years save where contracts have issued .

    N17 Claregalway Bypass at grade S2 jobbie ...seeing as there will be feck all money for a motorway .
    N18 'Missing Link' to Athenry From Gort
    M7 Newlands cross
    N11 Arklow Rathnew
    M20 ( all)
    N25 Cork-Midleton
    M7 Galway Bypass Phase 1 (to N59)
    Cork NRR
    Cork SRR Junctions
    N21 Adare Bypass
    N4 Mullingar - Edgeworthtown
    N15 Sligo - Grange

    If we get all of that lot done by 2020 I will be happy . It will be as much as we built in all of the 1990s too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    FFS Mysterious - there'll be a contract out on your life with lists like this - you haven't included enough projects from the BMW(Northwest) region. The fact that they don't have the traffic volumes is irrelevant in their eyes - don't say i didn't tell you so.
    Approval for projects in Ireland aren't determined by need, they are determined by spreading out red-lines on a map so they look good to voters nationwide!
    We'll have people on shortly shouting
    "down with this sort of thing", "Dublin* gets everything", where Dublin means everywhere outside of the BMW region!

    In reply to your post 2 main schemes in the NW:
    N17 Collooney/Charlestown Road
    N4 sligo bypass including N15 sligo to bundoran (bypass direction not decided)

    not sure about Leterkenny- Derry havnt driven the route but I can imagine its a very important route in the NW.

    N16 is a death trap, this will not likely get attention for a long time. Very busy route though now as the people of Sligo shop in Enniskillen and no point looking at the past traffic count.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    tech2 wrote: »
    Your missing the N11 gap, longford bypass and claregalway bypass.

    Couldnt disagree with the rest except :D.....
    - I dont think the tralee outer ring is high priority more low priority
    - NCW isint a huge bottleneck as you make it out to be
    I forgot the Longford N5, that would be high on my list for sure.

    NCW is as crazy as Adare. For the simple reason it's one of the largest towns in Ireand left with a busy national route funnelling through it.

    The road is extremely narrow just at the bridge in the town where the N21 crosses a junction and traffic lights. 14,000 vehicles a day pass through. The commuter traffic pretty much dies after NCW though. But NCW has been crying for a bypass for the last 30 years.

    NCW isn't local to me, so it's not politics I'm talking about. With Adare and CastleIsland going ahead. NCW is going to be as bad if not as worse as Kildare was. I'd be happy if Adare at least presses ahead, with the tunnel and M7 coming on Adare is going to be a nightmare. All the southwest traffic will be flying down the motorway into a right bottleneck once all these motorways are opened in 2010. :(
    In my own opinion, I would be happy if the Newlands X, N11, N17/N18 and M20 schemes stated in the next 5 years being realistic. My main one would be the M17/M18 gort to tuam would be a very big road project for the west of ireland and a huge boost to the economy in that region.

    Yes but at the M20 needs attention this time around.
    Also mysterious you make the N21 out to be an awful road in some of your posts here, its not. I would be more worried about local and trunk roads at the minute with the weather that has been faced this year and last year alot of these are in dire conditions need resurfacing badly.

    In fairness. it has gotten no attention for the last 12 years. The N22 and N17, N5, N11, N15 all simalar scale roads with simalar traffic levels. Have all got much attention along with the MIUs

    These are big bottenecks on the N21. The N21 has traffic levels comparable to the N6 and has traffic near Adare comparable to the M7 at after Portloaise.

    I'm not exaggerating. There needs to be some focus in at least removing the bottlenecks on this route. During summer it is literally chaos.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Yeah , Die Mysterious you biased easterner :)

    My list starting in 5 years . NOTHING will hapen DURING the next 5 years save where contracts have issued .

    N17 Claregalway Bypass at grade S2 jobbie ...seeing as there will be feck all money for a motorway .
    N18 'Missing Link' to Athenry From Gort
    M7 Newlands cross
    N11 Arklow Rathnew
    M20 ( all)
    N25 Cork-Midleton
    M7 Galway Bypass Phase 1 (to N59)
    Cork NRR
    Cork SRR Junctions
    N21 Adare Bypass
    N4 Mullingar - Edgeworthtown
    N15 Sligo - Grange

    If we get all of that lot done by 2020 I will be happy . It will be as much as we built in all of the 1990s too.

    The bolded are not priority or a safety or traffic hazard. The focus needs to be on priority projects. I understand these roads could do with an uplift. But the Idea of glorifying the N25 at Midelton, is what I called decorrating, in the current cliamte, it is not necessary.

    Now before all the Corkonians start screaming at me. I'm all up for the SRR and NRR upgrades. But there has to be limit here. There really needs to be a focus on which route needs most attention right at this time.

    For example Adare should be pressed ahead rather than the Midleton interchanges. Midleton N25 is still a very do able road for the present time. Not to mention they are reopening the railway here. Not all the money deserves to be spent there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Lots to be done on the N24 too- Carrick-on-Suir, Clonmel (needs outer bypass), Tipp town and all the sections in between need bypasses and upgrading. I think a lot of design work has already been done on much of it too.

    Also a hell of a lot of the National Secondaries need attention. A lot of them are treacherous and not a lot has been done on them in recent years. The MIU's needed the funding I guess.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    N25 Carrig - Midleton was pushed suddenly and appeared from absolutely nowhere when Amgen were going to come. Amgen pulled out, this got delayed. I think its still being dangled in front of peoples noses as a promise that may not come to fruition anytime soon.

    Its DC as it is (albeit very dangerous median crossings) so really shouldnt be touched for a while. All it needs it a layer of tar and its good to go for a while. The median crossings will be blocked somehow in the short term AFAIK.

    N11 gap should definately be done before this.

    However, given that realistically no government funding projects (apart from Castleisland) are gonna go ahead, the most likely to be done are the 4 PPPs which are -

    N17/N18 Gort to Tuam bypass
    N11/N25 Enniscorthy and New Ross bypasses
    M20 Northern section (Croom - Buttevant)
    M20 Southern section (Buttevant - Cork incl Cork NRR Northern section)

    CURRENT PLANS are to have the N17/N18 tendering fully in 2010 (the current tender notice is a pre-tender). INITIAL PLANS to open it in 2013. Now, whether this PPP scheme will go ahead or not I dont know. I dont know much about how PPPs work other than they're the only slim hope for big projects starting soon.

    I've said this before and I'll say it again. The N17/18 is the most important project for the roads program at the moment. Simply because if it happens and goes ahead, 3 other major schemes will go ahead. If it fails, then forget about any big schemes anytime soon.

    In an extreme shortage of money, if ANY non PPP projects go ahead they'll be VERY SMALL AND CHEAP ONES. ie: Castleisland, Longford and maybe Newlands. Nothing big will start IMO.


  • Registered Users Posts: 77 ✭✭tomflynn



    N11 gap should definately be done before this.

    However, given that realistically no government funding projects (apart from Castleisland) are gonna go ahead, the most likely to be done are the 4 PPPs which are -

    N17/N18 Gort to Tuam bypass
    N11/N25 Enniscorthy and New Ross bypasses
    M20 Northern section (Croom - Buttevant)
    M20 Southern section (Buttevant - Cork incl Cork NRR Northern section)

    CURRENT PLANS are to have the N17/N18 tendering fully in 2010 (the current tender notice is a pre-tender). INITIAL PLANS to open it in 2013. Now, whether this PPP scheme will go ahead or not I dont know. I dont know much about how PPPs work other than they're the only slim hope for big projects starting soon.

    I've said this before and I'll say it again. The N17/18 is the most important project for the roads program at the moment. Simply because if it happens and goes ahead, 3 other major schemes will go ahead. If it fails, then forget about any big schemes anytime soon.

    In an extreme shortage of money, if ANY non PPP projects go ahead they'll be VERY SMALL AND CHEAP ONES. ie: Castleisland, Longford and maybe Newlands. Nothing big will start IMO.

    Agree with this 100%
    It will be the four existing PPP projects
    N17/N18 Gort-Tuam
    M20 North (including N21 Adare bypass)
    M20 South (including Cork Northern Ring Road)
    N11 Gorey-Enniscorthy and N25 New Ross

    Also - news just out as of April 29th - an additional PPP bundle
    N11 Rathnew-Arklow and N7 Newlands X
    http://www.wicklowpeople.ie/news/nra-say-rathnew-road-upgrade-will-go-ahead-1725173.html
    http://www.dickroche.com/article.php?sid=1127

    I would also go along with the thinking that the Longford scale of bypass (it's only 2.6km) being the only type of project also allocated additional funding come the annual re-announcement of existing projects over the next few years etc... and that success of PPP approach as main mechanism to roads funding in next 5+ years is very dependant on success of N17/N18 tendering.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    With the public finances in ****, expect only something like Longford and Castleisland to go ahead under direct goverment funding. (The PPPs may be different, I dont know).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Well they didn't extend the N17/N18 tender deadline again, and at least there was interest in the project (as you can see by tender requests for additional documents etc. - http://www.e-tenders.gov.ie/Search/Show/Search_View.aspx?id=JAN113131 )

    If we see any other schemes up on e-tenders in the next two or three months, then it's a good sign.

    Doesn't mean anything is confirmed, far from, but it's at least a sign that all is not lost for these PPP schemes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,044 ✭✭✭AugustusMaximus


    Hopefully the rebuild on the Dunkettle Interchange will get underway.

    Traffic was backed up past Rochestown Park Hotel this evening. As bad as I've seen it without an accident.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Well they didn't extend the N17/N18 tender deadline again, and at least there was interest in the project (as you can see by tender requests for additional documents etc. - http://www.e-tenders.gov.ie/Search/Show/Search_View.aspx?id=JAN113131 )

    If we see any other schemes up on e-tenders in the next two or three months, then it's a good sign.

    Doesn't mean anything is confirmed, far from, but it's at least a sign that all is not lost for these PPP schemes.

    Sorry I meant to post this ages ago but forgot.
    Notification:

    An Bord Pleanala issued its approval to the M17 Galway (Rathmorrisey) to Tuam Motorway Scheme 2007 on 6th March 2009. That approval contained a number of conditions including the deletion of the Rathmorrisey motorway service area from the project.

    As a result of this approval condition, a number of amendments to the Information Memorandum and Prequalification Document for the N17/ N18 Gort to Tuam PPP Scheme are necessary, including to the assessment criteria where experience in the operation of public road service areas is no longer required. As these amendments occur throughout the document, the original document is fully withdrawn and is replaced by the revised Information Memorandum and Prequalification Document attached. Please note that other amendments have also been incorporated into the revised document.

    As a result of these changes the return date of Pre-qualification Submissions has been extended to Tuesday 21st April at 12.00 (noon).


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 5,024 Mod ✭✭✭✭G_R


    including the deletion of the Rathmorrisey motorway service area from the project.

    was that the god awful one they had off the side of a three stack roundabout?

    if so well done ABP


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    So if they have removed the service station, can they no proceed with a proper free flow junction. I hate these roundabouts.:mad:

    It's actually pointless building these three stacks because they are more awkard to build than proper free flowing interchanges. I just don't understand why they are going to the bother of building this crap, when all it's going to do, is slow traffic down as it approaches the roundabout.

    Why cant they just allow a proper free flow interchange, they have all the land in the world to play with.

    Regards.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    This is a big breakthrough on pension funds

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0506/1224245994684.html
    IRISH PENSIONS funds have indicated to the Government they would be prepared to invest up to €6 billion over the next three years in a range of State infrastructure projects as part of a plan that could secure about 70,000 jobs in the construction industry here, The Irish Times has learned.

    Under a detailed plan devised by the Construction Industry Council (CIC) and submitted to Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan in the run-up to the supplementary Budget, Irish pension funds would invest in a State infrastructure bond that would provide much-needed finance for the building of roads, railways, schools, hospitals and utility projects.

    The funds would receive a return on their money over a period of possibly 20-25 years at a rate superior to that paid on Government gilts – possibly 2.5 percentage points above the rates offered for gilts.

    Such a move would have two major benefits for the Government. It would provide cash for infrastructure projects that might otherwise be shelved due to the recession and it would sit “off balance sheet” and not count towards the crucial debt-to-GDP ratio, which has to be agreed with Brussels.

    It is understood that the bond would not require the approval of the European Commission.

    It would also provide a major stimulus to the construction industry here, securing about 70,000 jobs at a time when the industry is in disarray.

    In a detailed report sent to Government in advance of the supplementary Budget, the construction council warned that employment in the industry will decline to 126,000 by the end of 2011 from 302,000 at the end of last year unless the sector receives a substantial stimulus.

    The Department of Finance confirmed last night that it was in detailed talks with representatives of the pension fund industry here, including the Irish Association of Investment Managers (IAIM) and the Irish Association of Pension Funds.

    “The department has met with the pension fund industry and further meetings are scheduled,” a spokesman said. “The intention is to access funds that will support jobs in projects that offer value for money for the State.”

    He said a number of issues remain to be resolved, including the rate of return that would be paid to the pension funds.

    Frank O’Dwyer, head of IAIM, said the industry supports the idea of an infrastructure bond. “The institutional investment community here believes this is a suitable vehicle for long-term investment providing long maturities with good returns.”

    IAIM’s membership comprises 13 asset management firms, who between them handle about €200 billion of clients’ money.

    About €90 billion of that is managed on behalf of Irish clients, including large pension funds, pooled funds and individuals.

    Only about 3.5 per cent of this money is invested in Irish fixed-income products and the industry here is keen to increase this figure as it switches away from investing in shares and property. This would allow the Irish fund managers to allocate more money to the Irish economy.

    Talks have also taken place with pension consultants who advise the trustees of pension funds on how they should spend their money.

    The innovative plan was devised by the CIC, an umbrella body that represents architects, engineers, chartered surveyors and construction firms. The project is being led by Tom Costello, managing director of John Sisk Son Ireland, one of the country’s biggest contractors.

    The CIC submitted a detailed 70-page report – jointly compiled by Goodbody Corporate Finance and DKM Economic Consultants – to the Department of Finance in March.

    The report, which has been seen by The Irish Times , predicts that turnover in the construction sector will drop by 38 per cent this year to €17.6 billion and to €10.2 billion in 2010 without any stimulus.

    It argues that if the Government does nothing, 70,000 construction jobs will be lost, which would result in the State having to pick up a social welfare tab of €1.3 billion. The lost tax revenue would be €1.3 billion, it says.

    “The CIC believes that it is essential to provide a stimulus now so that design, planning permission and tenders can be advanced in 2009 in order to ensure projects reach construction in 2010,” the CIC says.

    So I would imagine the PPP's will eventually be funded by pension funds. This will hopefully speed up many projects that will be started in the next few years. 6 billion is a lot of money provided. The N17/N18 could be done for 600-800million. But as SpongeBob said it might prioritised for money making roads like the dublin orbital. Hopefully not! :D


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