Very Demotivating

SimonTemplar · 06-07-2015 6:45pm #1

I'm 31 and I'm currently doing an evening degree course in computing. I'll graduate next year. I work as a technical analyst which includes about 6 years experiencing writing VBA.

From a personal and acedemic viewpoint, I've written stuff in .NET (MVC and WPF), Java (Spring, Hibernate), PHP, Python and web front end technologies.

I'll have a couple of decent sized applications under my belt by the time I graduate. I had always intended to go into development on enterprise applications, but I've been reading stuff on this forum like 35 is the upper age for developers, etc.

I fear my age and relative lack of industry experience makes pursuing a development career difficult and ill-advised. Focusing on non-technical role such as a BA would be my second choice and I think I could properly grow my career in that area faster than development, but it is disheartening because development would be my passion, but I also need to think about my career, paying the bills, and not earning a relatively junior salary when I'm 40.

Am I being realistic or pessimistic regarding perusing a development career at my age?

c_man · 06-07-2015 6:52pm

OP you're fine, relax! Plenty of people get into this at an older age for instance me

and plenty of lads I work with (one joined as a grad with me, think he was 38 at the time). Seen plenty of people in the thirties (and a few older!) join in our grad/intern intake each year.

Eugene Norman · 06-07-2015 6:57pm

It seems like a younger man's game because there were so many new courses relative to the old so there's an increasing number of younger people coming into it over the last two decades. Most techies do become managers eventually but my boss is 58, and a tech manager at one remove from me. He still codes and is very valuable in fact in both roles. Started management a decade ago although he was a principal engineer before that. You'll be fine. Just get in the door.

And BA is an option of course. But try the coding first.

ethernet · 07-07-2015 8:20am

Don't give up hope. I'm in my mid twenties and working on enterprise apps. I'd say keep looking around - recruiters might have more enterprise-y roles for you.

Tar.Aldarion · 07-07-2015 9:46am

I know people who switched in their fourties and are happily working away for years. Don't listen to the old cynical men

L.Jenkins · 07-07-2015 9:53am

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

....Don't listen to the old cynical men

John_Mc · 07-07-2015 12:32pm

SimonTemplar wrote: »

I'm 31 and I'm currently doing an evening degree course in computing. I'll graduate next year. I work as a technical analyst which includes about 6 years experiencing writing VBA.

From a personal and acedemic viewpoint, I've written stuff in .NET (MVC and WPF), Java (Spring, Hibernate), PHP, Python and web front end technologies.

I'll have a couple of decent sized applications under my belt by the time I graduate. I had always intended to go into development on enterprise applications, but I've been reading stuff on this forum like 35 is the upper age for developers, etc.

I fear my age and relative lack of industry experience makes pursuing a development career difficult and ill-advised. Focusing on non-technical role such as a BA would be my second choice and I think I could properly grow my career in that area faster than development, but it is disheartening because development would be my passion, but I also need to think about my career, paying the bills, and not earning a relatively junior salary when I'm 40.

Am I being realistic or pessimistic regarding perusing a development career at my age?

As someone who regularly reviews CVs with a view to interviewing as well as carrying out the technical part of the interview, age would not bother me in the slightest.

I would be looking for someone who clearly loves programming and there's no better way to show this by putting a github address on your CV.

I really wouldn't worry about your opportunities because of your age

awec · 08-07-2015 10:52am

There is no upper limit for sure.

The reason this impression exists is because usually by the time a developer is 35 / 40 they have a husband / wife and their priority in life is their family. They are up against the young, single and very enthusiastic graduates who are likely to catch the eye more.

It's a bit of a strange industry, people just out of college can know as much if not more than the guys working for 20 years, it's just the industry experience that they lack.

Graham · 09-07-2015 10:11am

awec wrote: »

people just out of college can know as much if not more than the guys working for 20 years, it's just the industry experience that they lack.

That just doesn't make sense at all, most college courses barely brush over the fundamentals of any languages never mind being able to impart 2 decades worth of experience/learning.

I've come across a hand-full of recent graduates who have fantastic knowledge but that's always because they have a passion for the subject and have done way over and above their college course.

L.Jenkins · 09-07-2015 10:17am

awec wrote: »

It's a bit of a strange industry, people just out of college can know as much if not more than the guys working for 20 years, it's just the industry experience that they lack.

I've found quite the opposite in some graduates. They may have a passion for the job, but for the ones I have met, they have quite a way to go before being on a par with anyone of 20 years experience.

Graham · 09-07-2015 10:20am

Itzy wrote: »

I've found quite the opposite in some graduates. They may have a passion for the job, but for the ones I have met, they have quite a way to go before being on a par with anyone of 20 years experience.

You'd usually see a few of them floating around here telling everyone they're writing their own CMS because of security concerns about WordPress :rolleyes:

John_Mc · 09-07-2015 10:25am

I'd agree that all graduates need a lot of time before they are considered productive rather than a liability. I'd say that's going to change over the next few years though because there's a lot of 12/13 year olds out there building their own apps. Obviously there's more to being a developer than just coding, but the curve or time to get up to speed with us "old fells" won't be nearly as long

Graham · 09-07-2015 10:31am

John_Mc wrote: »

Obviously there's more to being a developer than just coding, but the curve or time to get up to speed with us "old fells" won't be nearly as long

That depends if the 'old fellas' stand still or keep moving along the curve.

L.Jenkins · 09-07-2015 12:58pm

Graham wrote: »

That depends if the 'old fellas' stand still or keep moving along the curve.

As discussed in another thread, one poster worked with ADA, a very specialized skill set. Yes, if Junior Developers or Graduates are hoping between Technologies, then yes, they'll have an advantage over someone who remains within one narrow area of Development. If they wanted to compete with someone in a narrow area of Development or skill set hoping over a 20 year period, then they're going to find it to be a very difficult task.

L.Jenkins · 09-07-2015 1:00pm

Graham wrote: »

You'd usually see a few of them floating around here telling everyone they're writing their own CMS because of security concerns about WordPress :rolleyes:

Just to reply to this, are they really that naive? Show them a few YouTube videos from past Defcons regarding security. If they're developing new Software due to "Security" concerns, they'd want to really know their stuff.

Graham · 09-07-2015 1:05pm

Itzy wrote: »

Just to reply to this, are they really that naive? Show them a few YouTube videos from past Defcons regarding security. If they're developing new Software due to "Security" concerns, they'd want to really know their stuff.

Yes, they usually are that naive as it's common for them to go on to demonstrate their home-grown system which quite happily dumps large globs of unsanitised input directly into an SQL/MySQL query.

L.Jenkins · 09-07-2015 6:37pm

Graham wrote: »

Yes, they usually are that naive as it's common for them to go on to demonstrate their home-grown system which quite happily dumps large globs of unsanitised input directly into an SQL/MySQL query.

That's the thing. They want to design and develop a secure application, but have no knowledge of or experience with Application Security and Pen Testing. If they did, they wouldn't be developing a new application, but aiming to improve what they are currently working.

jmcc · 12-07-2015 7:56pm

awec wrote: »

It's a bit of a strange industry, people just out of college can know as much if not more than the guys working for 20 years, it's just the industry experience that they lack.

This is where the thin layer of paint is mistaken for the depth of the wall behind it. Most courses are generally taught by people who are not part of the industry and they are often, beyond the basics of Computer Science, producing people for the industry demands of a few years ago.

Someone in the industry for twenty years or so would have had to have learned many of the languages, frameworks and techniques that were popular over those years and would have had to keep current with various languages and frameworks being used in the market. The newbies straight out of college may have been filled with talk of algorithms and programming techiques but they don't know what works and, more importantly, what gets the job done efficiently and quickly. The stuff that works in the real world can often be quite counter-intuitive and disagree with the limited algorithmic knowledge which those wonderful lecturers imparted. Knowing which algorithm to use in an examination is one thing but knowing which one to use in a live, heavily used web application is something completely different. This is because it is not a trivial examination and the knowledge necessary to understand the wider implications and concerns are missing due to the lack of experience and learning. And those people with the twenty years of experience have been continually learning and developing their skills. It is not just experience that differentiates them from the newbies. It is often knowledge too.

Regards...jmcc

fergalr · 14-07-2015 6:58am

Yeah...

But, unlike in many industries, there is a large quantity of knowledge that is needed to do a software dev job, that then depreciates very fast, because the field moves so fast.

Like, people would pay a *lot* for an expert deeply familiar with ruby on rails 5 years ago, because of that deep familiarity, and the speed it brings. So, you might rationally choose to become that expert out of college.

Simplifying, for clarity, you are choosing to learn
1) a set of knowledge thats general (good software dev practices, good eng, communication, specification, blah)
but also
2) a set of knowledge that's quite specific (the syntax of active record 2.X or whatever)

Investing in knowledge set 2 might get you big bucks, but doesn't have a long shelf-life. It'll probably be fairly useless in 10 years.

I'm not saying its irrational to invest in set 2, and then reinvest over time. But the reality is, if you make most of your investments there, you're going to not have as much of an edge on someone with 10 years less experience, 10 years later, as if you invest heavily in set 1.

I'd advise people to think, in the back of their minds, in terms of managing their knowledge portfolio, bearing in mind the return on each investment, as well as its likely lifetime.

I don't think this is as much the case if you are a doctor or a lawyer or whatever. Its worth being careful of.

moycullen14 · 16-07-2015 10:39am

fergalr wrote: »

Yeah...

But, unlike in many industries, there is a large quantity of knowledge that is needed to do a software dev job, that then depreciates very fast, because the field moves so fast.

Like, people would pay a *lot* for an expert deeply familiar with ruby on rails 5 years ago, because of that deep familiarity, and the speed it brings. So, you might rationally choose to become that expert out of college.

Simplifying, for clarity, you are choosing to learn
1) a set of knowledge thats general (good software dev practices, good eng, communication, specification, blah)
but also
2) a set of knowledge that's quite specific (the syntax of active record 2.X or whatever)

Investing in knowledge set 2 might get you big bucks, but doesn't have a long shelf-life. It'll probably be fairly useless in 10 years.

I'm not saying its irrational to invest in set 2, and then reinvest over time. But the reality is, if you make most of your investments there, you're going to not have as much of an edge on someone with 10 years less experience, 10 years later, as if you invest heavily in set 1.

I'd advise people to think, in the back of their minds, in terms of managing their knowledge portfolio, bearing in mind the return on each investment, as well as its likely lifetime.

I don't think this is as much the case if you are a doctor or a lawyer or whatever. Its worth being careful of.

Some of it deprecates very quickly but there is an awful lot of stuff that I use on a daily basis that has been around for decades. For example, scripting, linux utilities, perl, vi, etc.

Best investment I ever made was learning my way around *nix systems.

DublinWriter · 20-07-2015 9:48pm

SimonTemplar wrote: »

I'm 31...
Am I being realistic or pessimistic regarding perusing a development career at my age?

At your age? Christ no.

The sad fact of it is there is a lot of ageism coming into the industry now, especially in Ireland.

This is primarily because you'll be dealing with clueless agencies and HR departments that tend to associate the technology with the generation.

Unfortunately, development has become a depreciated skill. Developers increasingly tend to be at the end of the food chain. The whole debacle of outsourcing is evidence of this.

Go deep, go niche and most importantly of all, know how to blag (backed up by your ability of course).

Buford T Justice · 21-07-2015 10:50am

I'm 33 and going to do a degree this year in software dev. Currently working in php, but no degree means no decent jobs so I've found.

Am I off my rocker?

Graham · 21-07-2015 11:29am

If you read the tech press or even the regular news for that matter, I think it's easy to get a one sided view of the development world.

Contrary to popular opinion, the latest uber-trendy, super hot tech startup with founders who don't yet need to shave is NOT representative of the tech industry as a whole. In terms of development-spend, I'd guess they're a relatively small part of the overall dev market.

There's a world of opportunities in finance, manufacturing, telecoms, government etc where actual real world experience is preferable to a freshly minted grad.

To the posters/developers looking to invest in their own education/training, keep doing it. It's one of the few investments you can make where you're almost guaranteed to see a very significant return and a great chance for a very quick payback.

awec · 22-07-2015 2:55pm

Articles about startups are always a bit fluffy. Firstly they never mention the many startups where the arse falls out of them financially. They also never mention startups where a group of people bust their balls but fail to get the required capital from investors in the first place.

And most importantly they fail to mention (usually) that startup work is really hard and can generally involve crappy working hours especially in the early days. And unless it turns successful you're not likely to make great money.

They like to give off this impression that the process is have an idea -> few months pass -> insane profit.

Enterprise development (like the stuff Graham mentioned) may not be as "photogenic" to the tech media, but it will give you a more reliable and probably slightly higher income and you are likely to have a more predictable working life.

jmcc · 23-07-2015 1:44pm

awec wrote: »

Articles about startups are always a bit fluffy. Firstly they never mention the many startups where the arse falls out of them financially. They also never mention startups where a group of people bust their balls but fail to get the required capital from investors in the first place.

The main reason for this is that most of the people writing about startups and tech businesses have no clue about business or technology. It might be less politically correct to say that most of them are complete morons when it comes to technology and business. The attrition rate on startups is ignored. Many startups will not last five years.

Regards...jmcc

Very Demotivating

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