Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

1…457910…62

Comments

  • #302
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    maybe.. wait and see.


  • #303
    BHG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71 ✭✭BHG


    just some quick quips - not all firmly held views.

    good news FTA - bad news €200+ for new equipment - bad news 9E - good news HD

    If SaorSat is infill for where 2% can't get DTT should/n't RTÉ fund the equipment. Precedent exist with LW radios to the emigrants in the UK after MW was shut down.

    If SaorSat is HD it will be superior to Sky - duplication - rationalisation - rethink encrypted RTE? Duplicate Up links?

    If SaorSat was fed by Sky and DTT was fed by SaorSat to cut down on ground links, I would have news of a goal in a GAA game via twitter 5 seconds ahead of DTT. I get these issues on Radiio 1 Sat DAB & FM in different rooms of the house, if I run backwards I have a playback loop :)

    2011 Q2 too optimistic - when are the London Games ? Q3 2012.

    this DTT on USB that sky italia are doing looks interesting via
    http://www.techtir.ie/taxonomy/term/1000118


  • #304
    John mac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,130 ✭✭✭John mac


    BHG wrote: »
    should/n't RTÉ fund the equipment. Precedent exist with LW radios to the emigrants in the UK after MW was shut down.

    How can i get one of these ?

    How many were given out?


  • #305
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    It's up to Dept of Foriegn Affairs, not RTE, for UK,

    But yes, Government (not RTE) should pay for free dish installs in areas with no DTT.


  • #306
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    BHG wrote: »
    If SaorSat is HD it will be superior to Sky - duplication - rationalisation - rethink encrypted RTE? Duplicate Up links?

    If SaorSat was fed by Sky and DTT was fed by SaorSat to cut down on ground links, I would have news of a goal in a GAA game via twitter 5 seconds ahead of DTT. I get these issues on Radiio 1 Sat DAB & FM in different rooms of the house, if I run backwards I have a playback loop :)

    Sky platform and Saorsat need separate uplinks, different place in sky.
    Content different too.
    Sky Irish content has to be encrypted.
    An uplink is a once off cost.
    Sky pay for carriage of the four ( or five?) Irish (non-HD) channels on Sky.

    There is not actually duplication as Saorsat and Sky are as separate as UPC and Sky.


  • Advertisement
  • #307
    slegs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,014 ✭✭✭slegs


    People have to get it out of their heads that the transmission of Irish channels on Sky are somehow coordinated by RTE. It is Sky's infrastructure and satellite transponder on 28.2. They pay for everything. It is very different to the FTA freesat channels that are broadcast on transponders owned by freesat on Astra 28.2. RTE have no right nor call on what happens here in the same way that RTE cant tell UPC what to do with their equipment.

    When Saorsat goes live it will be on an transponder owned or leased by RTENL the same as freesat. In the near impossible event that RTE wanted to do something on Astra 28.2 themselves it would be on a different transponder which they would have to buy/lease and pay for all transmission. It wont happen even in FTV mode for cost reasons unless Sky go it alone with an FTV solution which i dont see happening no matter what others are saying. The option RTE have come up with is the best and most economical of whats possible.


  • #308
    rlogue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rlogue


    I still think the option RTE have chosen is the worst of all worlds. A non-standard satellite that is simply too far from the established 28.2 position to allow multiple LNBs on a single dish apart from the Wavefrontier enthusiast dishes. There is still the legal restriction of one dish per house and we don't know if TV3 will come willingly on board on the dedicated Saorsat slot. I suspect they won't without a fight.

    Of course here I declare my interest and would love to have legal access to RTE & TG4 without the hassle of going to get an Irish Sky sub.

    A TNTSAT style solution would have worked and I don't think the costs would have been prohibitive - weren't Real Digital talking about a low cost subscription service?


  • #309
    slegs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,014 ✭✭✭slegs


    rlogue wrote: »
    I still think the option RTE have chosen is the worst of all worlds. A non-standard satellite that is simply too far from the established 28.2 position to allow multiple LNBs on a single dish apart from the Wavefrontier enthusiast dishes. There is still the legal restriction of one dish per house and we don't know if TV3 will come willingly on board on the dedicated Saorsat slot. I suspect they won't without a fight.

    Of course here I declare my interest and would love to have legal access to RTE & TG4 without the hassle of going to get an Irish Sky sub.

    A TNTSAT style solution would have worked and I don't think the costs would have been prohibitive - weren't Real Digital talking about a low cost subscription service?

    Real Digital planned a PAY TV business just like Sky/UPC. While the competition they will generate is welcome they are not the solution for free TV. 28.2 on an FTV card is too expensive for the reasons Watty has outlined. And at that it is still not on the Sky EPG so people would still need a new receiver or live with other channels access. How much better is that really considering the huge extra cost?


  • #310
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    So a Humax Foxsat PVR should do it?

    OK, wishful thinking ahead alert!

    It really wouldn't be that technically difficult to add a few lines of programming to the firmware on a Freesat box, that when you'd enter an ROI postcode (e.g. RTE D4), the receiver would generate the appropriate Diseqc signal (port 1) to switch to the 9E LNBF when you select RTÉ 2, or a different Diseqc signal (port 2) switching to 28E LNBF for BBC1. In other words, a Freesat box for ROI. And for NI just as importantly, given the commitments in the GFA.

    There is some precedent with the earlier, if ultimately unsuccessful, customised firmware on the Sat4Free boxes.

    And while there is some argument about whether Freesat must remain a UK only entreprise (the excuse given by Panasonic why they wouldn't help out Irish customers who bought non-compliant Panasonic Freesat TVs), both LG and Sony are openly selling Freesat TVs in Ireland.

    Plus, RTÉ are already connected with Freesat by way of the radio channels on the Freesat EPG.


  • #311
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Apogee wrote: »
    OK, wishful thinking ahead alert!

    It really wouldn't be that technically difficult to add a few lines of programming to the firmware on a Freesat box, that when you'd enter an ROI postcode (e.g. RTE D4), the receiver would generate the appropriate Diseqc signal (port 1) to switch to the 9E LNBF when you select RTÉ 2, or a different Diseqc signal (port 2) switching to 28E LNBF for BBC1. In other words, a Freesat box for ROI. And for NI just as importantly, given the commitments in the GFA.

    Well, there are two tuners in a Foxsat box, could one be connected to the Saorsat LNB/dish, and the other to the Astra 28.2 LNB/dish. Then you would just need to select the tuner for watching/recording.

    Simples.:)


  • Advertisement
  • #312
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    No, even better is that both tuners would output diseqc signals, so you use 2x dual (or quad) LNBFS and 2 disqec switches. THen you have total flexibility.


  • #313
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Apogee wrote: »
    No, even better is that both tuners would output diseqc signals, so you use 2x dual (or quad) LNBFS and 2 disqec switches. THen you have total flexibility.

    Well, that would require two diseqc switches, which is a complication and a cost that is not needed.


  • #314
    Tony
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,336 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Well, that would require two diseqc switches, which is a complication and a cost that is not needed.

    It would be very limited without two diseq switches

    Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie



  • #315
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    You need 2 x diseqc switch or a small multiswitch. for a PVR

    I have showed this
    120587.png

    to various people and the consensus is that it's extremely unlikely to be counted as 2nd dish.

    MMDS are actually mesh dish and are not counted. Appearance is all.

    Construction:
    It has no arm out front as the LNB fits in a hole at the rear of the 44cm dish. A small reflector on the plastic lid bounces the main dish signal back to the LNB poking through. The 44cm dish is totally enclosed. 8 screws hold on the lid (from rear), but these are only for factory assembly. It comes assembled (including the Universal Ku LNB pre-fitted) and you only need adjust LNBF squew and fit dish bracket to pole/mount. LNBF can only be remove if dish is off bracket though. One screw and plastic clamp.

    I'll talk to the factory and get price with Ka LNBF included instead of Universal Ku LNBF. (Yes the €25 wholesale price includes bracket, mount and LNBF!)


  • #316
    BHG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71 ✭✭BHG


    and RTÉ can do all this a mid a recession for €1.5M - but couldn't do what they are mandated by legislation to do, Diaspora TV due to being broke?

    So RTE International must at some stage be added to the mix of RTÉ output. Perhaps they could fund it with MW transmission savings. Nope, they spent that on DAB but would rather got DAB+ now.

    RTÉ - do you plan it this way or does it just happen.
    In fact has RTÉ sought external expert advice on this? has the Minister been briefed?
    I won't be buying anything or holding my breath.


  • #317
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    BHG wrote: »
    has the Minister been briefed?

    Please Jesus, I hope not. Can we keep him away from it for as long as possible?


  • #318
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    This year I got a FTA Dish/STB, (and I'm very happy indeed), all the BBC's I could wish for + all the ITV's + Sky news + loads of Radio, & soooo much more. We get RTE from a loft aerial, which comes in handy for the Nine O'Clock news, but 99.9% of the time we use the Astra dish.

    So just to clarify, if I want RTE Digital going forward, then I will need a second FTA Dish ? :confused:


  • #319
    Bazzer2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 275 ✭✭Bazzer2


    Camelot wrote: »
    Last year I gotan FTA Dish/STB this year, (and I'm very happy indeed), all the BBC's I could wish for + all the ITV's + Sky news + loads of Radio, & soooo much more. We get RTE from a loft aerial, which comes in handy for the Nine O'Clock news, but 99.9% of the time we use the Astra dish.

    So just to clarify, if I want RTE Digital going forward, then I will need a second FTA Dish ? :confused:

    Unless you can get RTE Digital from existing terrestrial/cable, then a setup for Saorsat should be your last option.


  • #320
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Bazzer2 wrote: »
    Unless you can get RTE Digital from existing terrestrial/cable, then a setup for Saorsat should be your last option.

    Actually, if the dish for Saorsat cost less than €50, (based on Watty's wholesale price) then it is quite competative with a decent aerial. Decent aerials would be used attached to a chimney, whereas the dish can de mounted at near ground level. Assuming DIY installation of dish, compared with professional installer for chimney (as it is high up), I think Saorsat would be used quite widely in many parts of Ireland. For example, many MMDS chicken wire dishes are visible around Dublin, where cable is king.

    Remember, the Saorsat signal can be distributed like an aerial signal as it is only in one quadrant of the sat signal. {Afterthought}


  • #321
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Remember, the Saorsat signal can be distributed like an aerial signal as it is only in one quadrant of the sat signal. {Afterthought}

    It's better than that, as there are only different polarities on a typical Ka-LNBF, so no lo- or hi-band switching. So it's halves rather than quadrants that apply.

    Depending on the width of the freq range, you could even send both polarities down the one cable simultaneously, known as a "stacked LNBF" - similar to the approach used by a stacker/destacker.


  • Advertisement
  • #322
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    BHG wrote: »
    and RTÉ can do all this a mid a recession for €1.5M - but couldn't do what they are mandated by legislation to do, Diaspora TV due to being broke?

    So RTE International must at some stage be added to the mix of RTÉ output. Perhaps they could fund it with MW transmission savings. Nope, they spent that on DAB but would rather got DAB+ now.

    Diaspora TV and RTE International have not been "mandated". I think these are both good ideas. But like virtually every other country should be directly paid for by Government, typically Dept. of Foreign affairs.

    The €1.5M ka band feed is a solution to meet what RTE and RTE have been "mandated" and have obligation to do. Universal Coverage in Ireland.

    "Sky" is used as emergency backup for RTE analogue TX. Doing that on DTT has four problems:
    1) MPEG4 Headend encoders at EVERY TX about €50,000 per Mux, total rollout cost €5M. Reduced quality due to re-encoding.
    2) Sky doesn't actually have all the proposed DTT Content. Sky pays carriage cost for existing Sky Irish Content and control it. It would cost maybe €10M p.a. to add the missing content, if there was space, excluding encryption costs.
    3) 200+ Sky boxes ( just for four channels), viewing cards (and possibly expensive subscriptions?) One per channel per site. If all content was covered inc Radio, then about 1275 Sky boxes needed.
    4)Using a Sky box there is no Interactive/EPG backup feed.

    Using RTENL paid for carriage on Kasat (probably) solves these issues:
    1) Ka uplink can be exact copy of "Transport stream" used by a Mux. A single "professional" satellite receiver can output the digital Transport stream (all channels on one coax) and feed the DTT transmitter modulator direct. Saves upt to €5M and allows small cheap "fill-in" DTT TX for a clump of houses fed direct by sat instead of a dish on each house.
    2) No encryption needed. No foreign Media/PayTV control and only €1.5M per mux p.a. About 1/10th to 1/20th of 28.2E costs. Plenty of expansion space.
    3) Only one Satellite receiver per Mux needed. Total 102 for ALL Soarview TV and Radio channels.
    4) Backup can include MHEG5, EPG etc.

    The Ka service also allows FTA Satellite complete copy of Saorview for Public (even on Media PCs). Even 150 DTT TX would require a full copy on Satellite for the 0.5% to 1% of people outside of coverage. The cost of this on Sky/28.2E would be €12M to €30M per year for RTE.


  • #323
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Apogee wrote: »
    It's better than that, as there are only different polarities on a typical Ka-LNBF, so no lo- or hi-band switching. So it's halves rather than quadrants that apply.

    Depending on the width of the freq range, you could even send both polarities down the one cable simultaneously, known as a "stacked LNBF" - similar to the approach used by a stacker/destacker.
    You need hi/lo switching to get the whole band. What you say is true for C-band, not always Ka-band.

    It's likely no switching, not even polarity switching is needed, I agree, but technically the entire band is
    Tone Off = 18.3 .. 18.8Ghz
    Tone On = 19.7 .. 20.2Ghz

    But ... each spot can only have 1/4 of all the frequencies.
    Even if there was more than one transponder for TV AND Internet, all the downlink has to be on same Polarity, absolutely. It's 99.9% likely it has to be on same part of band too or the 80 spot satellite is then more complicated than needed.

    Same colour = same Frequencies/Polarity, Different colour = different frequencies / Polarity
    500px-KA-SAT_spot_beams_coverage.jpg
    There are FOUR flavours of spot (logical if you think about it)

    Obviously for one transponder, no switching per channel is needed. But it seems 99.9% likely all downlinks on spot are in same band have to be in same polarity. Simple IF distribution, splitter to feed PVR (or 2 x Diseqc if using Freesat and PVR also)


  • #324
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Camelot wrote: »
    Last year I gotan FTA Dish/STB this year, (and I'm very happy indeed), all the BBC's I could wish for + all the ITV's + Sky news + loads of Radio, & soooo much more. We get RTE from a loft aerial, which comes in handy for the Nine O'Clock news, but 99.9% of the time we use the Astra dish.

    So just to clarify, if I want RTE Digital going forward, then I will need a second FTA Dish ? :confused:

    Over 90% of people can/will get Saorview (RTE Digital) terrestrial via an aerial. The loft aerial + a Saorview Set-box (Or other suitable receiver) will work. If you want it via Satellite as well as BBC you need a FTA receiver that does HD and 2nd small boxed dish http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67010156&postcount=315 with a Diseqc switch.


  • #325
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    watty wrote: »
    You need hi/lo switching to get the whole band.

    Where do you get that from? What are you assuming the band will be?


  • #326
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Tone Off = 18.3 .. 18.8Ghz
    Tone On = 19.7 .. 20.2Ghz

    But you could be right that Ka sat doesn't use 2GHz, but even if it did we would be unlikely to ever need to switch band or polarity...

    A) You don't need the whole band, ever. Only what is in one Spot. Kasat is same as the WildBlue system in USA, except Kasat is 80 spot on one satellite and Wildblue uses 60+ spots, but carried by two satellites. The vendor presentations I had all 2GHz downlink total.. but 1/4 used per spot

    B) I don't have the exact spot lineup for Kasat, but I have this chart for an existing Ka band Satellite in Europe
    120477.gif
    This satellite doesn't have full Ka Band capacity, so indeed doesn't need band switching.

    This post http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66956673&postcount=224


    Strictly speaking the downlink is in K band and only the Uplink is in Ka band
    Ku = Under K band.
    Ka = Above K band.

    The lower part of what Satellite Tv calls Ku is actually top of X band.
    The Ka band uplink uses frequencies between 27.5GHz and 31Ghz and the downlink uses frequencies between 18.3 and 18.8Ghz and between 19.7 and 20.2Ghz. The Ka band is branch of the K band from the electromagnetic spectrum. The term "Ka-band" is from Kurz-above, which originates from the German phrase "kurz" implying short.

    Ka band dishes can be much smaller than C band dishes. Ka band dishes vary from 2' to 5' in diameter.

    The current "Ka Band" for "tooway" Internet on 13E (frequency table above) is only using the high half (tone on) part of band.

    Two way systems always use
    a higher band segment for transmit
    differing Polarisation for TX & RX (to increase isolation)

    Other info
    http://www.viasat.com/news/50-million-infrastructure-contract-new-eutelsat-all-ka-band-satellite
    ViaSat has received a $50 million contract award from Skylogic, the broadband subsidiary of Eutelsat Communications (Eutelsat Communications-Euronext Paris: ETL) for on-ground baseband infrastructure for the previously announced high-capacity KA-SAT Ka-band satellite system. Under the contract, ViaSat will deliver and install broadband equipment for 10 KA-SAT gateways in Europe. The gateways will connect subscribers of Eutelsat Tooway™ satellite broadband service to the Internet. The ViaSat ground infrastructure will be available for the KA-SAT launch scheduled for the third quarter of 2010.
    ...
    KA-SAT is a high capacity Ka-band spot beam satellite with planned coverage over Europe, the Middle East, and Northern Africa. With a capacity estimated at 70 Gbps, KA-SAT is expected to be (at launch) the highest capacity satellite in the world.
    Also http://www.viasat.com/news/18-million-broadband-gateway-contract-new-eutelsat-ka-band-ka-sat-satellite
    ViaSat Inc. (NASDAQ: VSAT) has received an $18 million contract award from Skylogic, the broadband subsidiary of Eutelsat Communications (Eutelsat Communications-Euronext Paris: ETL) for broadband gateway earth stations for the previously announced high-capacity KA-SAT Ka-band satellite system. ViaSat is under contract to deliver and install eight broadband earth station antennas throughout Europe, as well as provide maintenance and support services. The earth station gateways are designed to connect subscribers of Eutelsat Tooway™ satellite broadband service to the Internet. The ViaSat ground infrastructure will be available for the KA-SAT launch scheduled for mid-2010.

    This award is in addition to the gateway infrastructure system contract announced in September 2008.

    80 spots so 70/80 = 0.875 Gbps = 875Mbps capacity per spot!

    http://www.satnews.com/cgi-bin/display_story.cgi?number=127726823
    Designed to operate for 15 years, it will have a launch mass of 5.8 tons and a payload consuming more than 11 kW of power, with solar arrays generating 15 kW of power.

    The existing Hotbird 6 @ 13E is using the Ka Tooway technology
    The WildBlue system has been using this Ka band DOCSIS Internet in USA since 2006

    RTE needs less than 1/10th of the Irish Spot capacity, ever? It's primarily a satellite designed for Internet. So actually half the downlink capacity will not be for user but for Earthstation to receive the user's uplink.

    This means that even if the entire band is used, that Apogee is correct, a user would only need half of it (unless trying to listen to users uplink, which is TDMA not DVB and encrypted using DOCSIS).

    One of these fire sticks will launch it
    http://space.skyrocket.de/index_frame.htm?http://www.skyrocket.de/space/doc_sdat/ka-sat.htm


  • #327
    rlogue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rlogue


    watty wrote: »
    Diaspora TV and RTE International have not been "mandated". I think these are both good ideas. But like virtually every other country should be directly paid for by Government, typically Dept. of Foreign affairs.


    Watty, it's in legislation that RTÉ must provide this service. Eamon Ryan has been very easy - too easy on RTÉ and allowed the overseas version of the RTÉ player and the occasional live feed on the website to be a sort of replacement for Diaspora TV but a poor quality web video is no replacement for proper video.

    Note that Conor Hayes, the RTÉ executive who announced Saorsat is the same Conor Hayes who deliberately shut Tara TV down in 2002 to pave the way for the RTÉ-Sky deal.

    Hayes has history on stopping expats from watching Irish TV but I believe there are stats out there that estimate 200,000 Irish Sky boxes are currently outside the state. Those boxes aren't outside the state to watch Discovery or Sky One. They are outside the state because expats like myself want to watch our own TV.

    We can argue the toss on whether the DFA or RTE should fund Diaspora TV but none of this would have been necessary if Conor Hayes had not pulled the plug on Tara in 2002 and RTE should now meet their legal obligations.


  • #328
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The closing of Tara was despicable.

    I agree with what you say, but Irish Sky boxes that are currently outside the state and People outside the state, are subjects for a different thread.


  • #329
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    I updated http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67012628&postcount=326

    I was being too pedantic about what Apogee said, I apologise to Apogee.

    However I was agreeing that IF distribution/splitting (even if more than one transponder is used) will be a doddle.

    More factoids added about "Ka-sat"


  • #330
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    I haven't been able to find any proper specs for Ka-sat - I don't think they've been release publically yet - but my hunch is that it will use a contiguous portion of the Ka-band and avoid the complexity of dual oscillators. Considering that Tooway/Hotbird only uses 500MHz currently, so could easily be expanded to 900MHz e.g. 19.7GHz to 20.6GHz (with the caveat that even small changes in the Ka region can have a big impact on signal attenuation by atmospheric moisture.)


  • Advertisement
  • #331
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Even if it does use the whole band, likely the lower half (poorer gain) will be used by the earth stations receiving the user Internet uplink, so we will be fine anyway...

    We can't work out the MHz used from the 875MBps data rate per spot, as the Kasat does several stuff on Internet links
    1) Adaptive Code. Varies from QPSK to higher codes at same symbol rate for rain/sun. Thus bit rate varies even at fixed symbol rate! Obviously not used on non-Internet DVB.
    2) We don't know the FEC. Again may not be fixed on Internet traffic
    3) DVB-S2 vs DVB-s Data rate *Maybe* 30% higher for same MHz as DVBs, see (1).

    Be hilarious.. After 15 years of telling people they can't split an LNB feed, now you can.

    The extreme cheapness of the Saorsat is of course because all four satellites at 28.2E together is less than 2Gbps total bandwidth and it's mostly for TV and this one satellite (intended entirely for cheap Internet) has 70 Gbps by reusing each group of frequency/polarity 20 times on 80 spots.

    This is the 3rd satellite of this kind. The 4th one is in USA late next year and will have 110 spots. So Kasat may have the "mantle" of highest capacity sat for only a year. There are more planned for Europe.

    We had a big shortage of capacity due to two major launch failures a few years back. If these next high capacity "birds" are OK, then capacity will be very cheap (but only on Ka Spot beams). It will remain comparatively expensive to do a TV channel over all of Western Europe on Ku (BBC World TV. DW TV, etc). Doing it over all of Western Europe via Ka would be more expensive as you would have to rent space on 20 to 40 spots!

    The price of a Transponder on one Ka-Spot could drop to 1/20th of cost of a West Europe Ku Beam.


  • #332
    mickko
    Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭mickko


    Is there any possibility that RTE may no longer be available via the Sky platform on 28.2 after a launch of Saorsat?

    After all, with the amount of revenue that's leaving the country every month, never mind the mind-numbing continuous advertising by Sky, and dishes destroying every housing estate in the country, Sky could really be described as an enemy of the state, particularily in these tough economic times.

    Is there no possibility that the state broadcaster, and the powers to be behind them, would want to cut all ties with Sky?

    Just a thought.


  • #333
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    No, but everyone with sky might find out that a simple change of box from sky+ to Freesat will give nearly everything they have (except skysports) for free. Either a DTT or Saorsat for RTE, also for free and every thing (nearly) that they get now is FREEEEEE.

    Then sky might be worried.:)


  • #334
    Mr McBoatface
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭Mr McBoatface


    mickko wrote: »
    Is there any possibility that RTE may no longer be available via the Sky platform on 28.2 after a launch of Saorsat?

    After all, with the amount of revenue that's leaving the country every month, never mind the mind-numbing continuous advertising by Sky, and dishes destroying every housing estate in the country, Sky could really be described as an enemy of the state, particularily in these tough economic times.

    Is there no possibility that the state broadcaster, and the powers to be behind them, would want to cut all ties with Sky?

    Just a thought.

    I've had similar thought myself. In my opinion it's a scandal SKY charge UK VAT to customers in Ireland and then don't transfer the VAT they charged the Irish Revenue.

    However RTE have a huge customer base on Sky and risk losing them should RTE leave SKY, no doubt this would have a negative affect on advertising revenue. So while it may be possible I don't think it would happen.


  • #335
    Tony
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,336 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    jobyrne30 wrote: »
    it's a scandal SKY charge UK VAT to customers in Ireland and then don't transfer the VAT they charged the Irish Revenue.

    Are you sure about this? I know amazon pay Irish VAT

    Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie



  • #336
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Installer VAT is Irish.

    Technically if you have more than XXX Irish Sales you need to register an Irish Office if you are an EU company and then pay Irish VAT. Sky allegedly don't do this.


  • Advertisement
  • #337
    Kotek Besar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭Kotek Besar


    It's definitely UK VAT that is charged on Sky ROI subs.


  • #338
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    mickko wrote: »
    Is there any possibility that RTE may no longer be available via the Sky platform on 28.2 after a launch of Saorsat?

    It costs RTE nothing and means Sky subscribers automatically get RTE, So RTE won't want to end it.

    Sky will continue to supply it for same reason.

    But don't expect the extra TV Irish TV, or the new Digital Radio on Sky as it's too expensive for RTE and Sky won't bother as viewing numbers not high enough. I don't expect RTE HD on Sky for some years.

    more than 25% of Sky setbox viewing is RTE (highest)
    2% is Sky 1 (highest pay channel rating!)
    1% to 2% is all Sky Sports. But for the people paying, it's an important 1% to 2%.


  • #339
    mickko
    Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭mickko


    jobyrne30 wrote: »
    However RTE have a huge customer base on Sky and risk losing them should RTE leave SKY, no doubt this would have a negative affect on advertising revenue. So while it may be possible I don't think it would happen.



    If RTE left Sky, practically everyone receiving it from Sky would change to Saorsat or DTT. The vast majority of people in this country would choose RTE over any other channels. I cant see how this would have any affect on advertising revenue if the viewing figures are the same.

    The only thing I can see change for the better is that a large amount of money being received by the British government would remain in circulation in this country, where it's desparately needed at the moment. It would also help create jobs and VAT for the government through Saorsat installations, higher subscribers for UPC who pay Irish VAT, etc, etc.

    I could understand some points made here if RTE were a subscription based private company, but it's the state broadcaster. For me to have to pay a foreign company, who make no contribution that I know of to the revenue, is so mind boggingly bizarrely incorrect you'd get a pain in the head thinking about. Typical Irish incompetance. Does this happen in any other country?

    We also pay a much higher subscription for the same packages as people in the UK, and there's a price increase in September. Sky must love the push-over Irish. The least they should be doing is returning the UK VAT paid by us. RTE seem just to have laid down and given Sky whatever they want.

    It's as simple as this, the state have given Sky dominance in the market place on a silver plate, and they're laughing all the way to the bank. Meanwhile, our government are seeking every way to sqeeze every cent out of us to plug holes that they made.

    Does anyone know the figures being sent to Sky every year? Surely it must be in the hundreds of millions, if not heading for a billion. It's a long shot, but it is possibe that Soarsat could be a way to call an end to this in the long run.


  • #340
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    mickko wrote: »
    I
    Does anyone know the figures being sent to Sky every year? Surely it must be in the hundreds of millions, if not heading for a billion. It's a long shot, but it is possibe that Soarsat could be a way to call an end to this in the long run.
    Between €180M and €500M

    When I chatted to RTE about Satellite in 1998, they said it's just Cable TV without a wire. Well, since then BBC, ITV, C4 and Five are FTA, not just DWTV or BBC World News or S4C~digidol.

    But for sure Sky is "just" a wireless version of UPC, from RTE's point of view this is true, So I expect the basic selection of Irish TV and Radio to continue as they are on UPC and Sky.

    But with Freesat HD (UK Free TV) and Saorsat, there is now a FTA Satellite alternative for people too far from East/ South East Coast and Border for UK Freeview via aerial.


  • #341
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Just reading up on Anik F2 which the Wildblue service is built upon and is the closest equivalent to Ka-sat currently in operation.

    36 spot beams. Unlike Hotbird, they use only one polarity to receive (RHCP). And the frequency band is the same 19.7-20.2GHz with 62.5MHz channel spacing.

    4812627719_45a1e731b3.jpg

    http://www.cpe-labs.com/PDFs/WildBluePDFs/ProductsAndServicesPrimer.pdf
    http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/anik_f2/anik_f2.html


  • Advertisement
  • #342
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,853 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    mickko wrote: »
    If RTE left Sky, practically everyone receiving it from Sky would change to Saorsat or DTT.

    That won't happen. It would only be true if receiving RTÉ was the main reason people subscribed to pay-TV. Its not. The driver of pay-TV historically was the availablity of the UK terrestrial channels, which won't be on Saorsat but are on Astra. To that we can now add Sky Sports as a substantial incentive for people to subscribe to pay-TV also.

    Pay-TV services have been successful without RTÉ before. Sky Digital had already acquired a substantial subscriber base in Ireland prior to RTÉ becoming available via Astra. MMDS also managed to acquire to acquire a substantial subscriber base with no RTÉ on it. Its because RTÉ is not a driver for pay-TV. If RTÉ were to leave Astra, it wouldn't cause people to drop their pay-TV service. Likely they would adopt Saorview as an **addition** to their Sky service, not a replacement. Its also likely that if this situation came to pass, blind eyes would be thrown to people putting up both Astra and Saorsat dishes in order to recieve both.

    The argument is moot in any case. Realistically, RTÉ is no more likely to remove its channels from Sky Digital than it is from UPC. The driver for RTÉ to go on Astra was twofold (a) Sky gave it free carriage (b) studies had shown that while ITV was not on the Sky EPG - as it was not initally, cause ITV wouldn't pay Sky - Sky viewers started to watch ITV less because of the effort to change channel (which isn't that substantial) and because its programmes weren't listed in the EPG. RTÉ's fear was that the same phenomeon would effect it if it did not go on the Sky EPG. I don't think that fear is gone away suddenly because it is launching Saorsat.


  • #343
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Apogee wrote: »
    Just reading up on Anik F2 which the Wildblue service is built upon and is the closest equivalent to Ka-sat currently in operation.
    There is a 2nd satellite with a further maybe 27 beams. For Wildblue's Tooway service.
    WildBlue has designed a state-of-the-art Ka-band communications system aboard our own WildBlue-1 satellite and Telesat's Anik F2 satellite, covering the contiguous U.S. with a total of 66 spot beams. Our satellites occupy a geostationary orbit 22,500 miles above the equator at 111.1° West Longitude. WildBlue chose the 20/30 GHz Ka-band frequencies and a spot-beam architecture as the most efficient and effective technology platform to offer broadband via satellite.
    Since about 2005/2006. I think Viasat designed the DOCSIS VSAT (two way terminal).


    The Ka on Hotbird 6 is some sort of prototype to test something else, hence only four beams.

    There is also some ka test at 23.5 E

    DirecTV ka Band in States is using a slightly different scheme (circularly polarised) and unlike Tooway is mainly TV.

    Viasat 1, 110 spots, end 2011 is also USA and mainly for Tooway. Compared to Marcopolo 1 it's amazing capacity


    Other news
    http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2010/07/08/french-plan-help-with-aso/
    French plan help with ASO
    By Robert Briel
    Published: July 8, 2010 09.23 Europe/London

    The French government has published a study on helping people living in areas not covered by digital terrestrial television. The government has already implemented a wide monitoring mechanism to ensure that all French people, wherever they live, will continue to receive television after the transition to all digital.
    The plan will involve mix of subsidies, Satellite alternatives, extra small TV sites and Cable.


  • #344
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    icdg wrote: »
    That won't happen. It would only be true if receiving RTÉ was the main reason people subscribed to pay-TV. Its not. The driver of pay-TV historically was the availablity of the UK terrestrial channels, which won't be on Saorsat but are on Astra. To that we can now add Sky Sports as a substantial incentive for people to subscribe to pay-TV also..

    I agree
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67021491&postcount=338

    Though Sky Sports is less than 2% of viewing, it's important viewing and the reason for over half (maybe 3/4) of subscriptions.

    The "2nd" dish won't be an issue as MMDS isn't and a Cassegrain boxed dish is less like a dish even than MMDS and smaller. The 9 degree higher elevation and closer to south may make mounting easier too.


  • #345
    mickko
    Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭mickko


    icdg wrote: »

    Pay-TV services have been successful without RTÉ before.

    Not so. They were somewhat successful to a certain point, probably driven by Sky Sports. I dont have the figures to hand, but I specifically remember reading in the SBP, probably around 2003, that Sky had released subs figures for the financial year after the release of RTE and the allocation of the four channels to slots 1-4 on the EPG, and their subs had exploded several fold. From a professional point of view, I'm only well aware of the inpact that Sky subs have had on Cable subs in this country since RTE joined forces with Sky.
    icdg wrote: »
    Likely they would adopt Saorview as an **addition** to their Sky service, not a replacement. Its also likely that if this situation came to pass, blind eyes would be thrown to people putting up both Astra and Saorsat dishes in order to recieve both.

    I agree, but the idea of continuing to pay Sky for a load of repeats could become stale in the mouth for alot of punters, particularily when they realise what they can get for free. Receiving free services, from 2 sats, could see alot of people ditch their Sky payment over time. After the RTE's, BBC's and other FTA's, Sky is pretty much useless except for Sports. The Premiership is one of the real driving forces Sky have, but I'd imagine only a small proportion of Sky subs are really interested in it. I think Watty meationed 2% in a previous post.

    I'm looking at this from a more financial perspective. For arguments sake, lets say there's 500million leaving the country every year to Sky. That's 1 billion every 2 years. That's up there with the type of figures being thrown around when we start talking about Anglo, Levies increasing, introduction of property tax, etc, etc, etc. Surely even half this figure would be worth trying to save. This is of course very much in the interest of the state and those genuinely trying to sort out our financial woes. Thats if the powers that be can see that, which I sure they probably cant.
    icdg wrote: »
    RTÉ's fear was that the same phenomeon would effect it if it did not go on the Sky EPG. I don't think that fear is gone away suddenly because it is launching Saorsat.

    I dont think this fear exists at all within RTE. They're just interested in the easy way out, and Sky gave them the easy offer, to Skys benefit of course. Things in Britain are different. ITV needed to be on the EPG because there is more competition from other British Braodcasters. People in Ireland want RTE and will want it no-matter which platform it is on. Sky are powerful. But RTE in Ireland is more powerful than Sky. Is'nt this why Sky pay their carraige charges.
    RTE available only through DTT and Saorsat could be the way of the future if someone had the balls to do it, and I for one think it could be a roaring success, and break Sky's dominance here, which would be both financially and socially better for us in the long run.


  • #346
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Sky are not totally dominant. UPC is strong competition. They have about 40% of homes each, but UPC is now recovering from the MMDS losses to Sky and allege 70,000 Sky customers have switched (sounds high to me).

    Since c4 and Five joined BBC& ITV unencrypted and the "Freesat" brand and boxes has launched (Almost Sky ease of use compared to generic FTA boxes) we have seen an increase in people with no desire to pay for Sky Sports switching to FTA and Freesat.

    It's up to individuals to cancel Sky (or UPC and just have their phone & Broadband), or not. I think if UPC and Sky want to carry the basic station line up they should.

    I think thought they should not get HD, extra channels etc and when deal with sky come for renewal RTE should be looking for a Royalty instead of Sky having the content "free" (Sky pay their carriage costs, so it's anything but "free" for Sky, but AFAIK, RTE, TV3 and TG4 get nothing). BBC gets paid by Sky because Sky puts BBC on Irish EPG.


  • #347
    Digifriendly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,056 ✭✭✭Digifriendly


    mickko wrote: »
    RTE available only through DTT and Saorsat could be the way of the future if someone had the balls to do it, and I for one think it could be a roaring success, and break Sky's dominance here, which would be both financially and socially better for us in the long run.

    I simply can't agree that Sky's dominance will be broken by DTT or Saorsat. Whether we like it or not they presently dominate UK and ROI. Take the release today of their coverage of the HC rugby in new season and it is unsurpassed as is their coverage of many other sports. Saorsat or RTE via DTt will not change that.


  • #348
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    I agree, Pay TV sports with exclusives and limited geographic coverage of UPC ensures that both Sky & UPC are unlikely to go below a joint 70% market.

    I think at 80% the market has peaked and both Sky & UPC will offer increasing blandishments in Autumn 2011 and Especially 2012 when the will sow uncertainty about ASO.

    We need a good Information campain about Saorview. The TV dealers and Installers are starting to get act together and be professional

    http://www.isaa.tv/
    Quality Assured satellite and aerial installations

    The ISAA (Irish Satellite & Aerial Installers Association) has been formed
    by professional installers all over Ireland who adhere to high standards of
    workmanship and professional conduct.

    Using an ISAA approved installer gives peace of mind and a trouble free
    installation

    We need a similar association of Knowledgeable Sales people as the British & German owned Multiples just assume here is same as UK. :(

    We are lucky Tesco and Lidl don't ask for Sterling!


  • #349
    FREETV
    Registered Users Posts: 1,673 ✭✭✭FREETV


    Digifriendly wrote: »
    I simply can't agree that Sky's dominance will be broken by DTT or Saorsat. Whether we like it or not they presently dominate UK and ROI. Take the release today of their coverage of the HC rugby in new season and it is unsurpassed as is their coverage of many other sports. Saorsat or RTE via DTt will not change that.
    It will decrease the number of Sky customers in Ireland who had poor analogue reception up until now and had no alternative but to subscribe to Sky for proper viewing reception and recording. With Saorview going live on October 31 and the chance for the first time ever to receive crystal clear digital Irish TV then who would pay for Sky if they can use either a small aerial on a window, in an attic or a roof mounted aerial with no extra costs ever? Unless of course they were Sports fanatics or had to go for a roof aerial because of terrain to receive Saorview and weren't allowed to install one because of a reluctant/fussy Landlord. Saorsat should be another alternative for others in remote rural areas next year where Saorview cannot be received. UPC's digital television service will never come close to Sky's. Very few channels and a poor selection of channels when compared to Sky and lower bittrates through cable. Only those interested in a package deal of broadband, telephone and digital tv through UPC in order to save money or who aren't allowed to install dishes or aerials in rented accomodation to go FTA will be their dominant customer base. The majority of the population in Ireland still don't know about the DTT tests and the forthcoming Saorview and Saorsat launches yet or the amount of channels available FTA on Astra 28.2E so probably thought that Sky or UPC were their only options. I can see a huge drop in the number of Sky and UPC subscribers in about sixteen months time. :)


  • #350
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    watty wrote: »

    We are lucky Tesco and Lidl don't ask for Sterling!

    I think they would lose out if they did. UK Sterling prices are 20% to 30% cheaper.

    The main problem with them is that, for us, the most important fact about TVs is whether they have MPEG4 and MHEG5. This is rarely mentioned on UK sourced products, even if they have it. I was setting up a TV for someone (an LG iirc) and it did not even have Ireland as a country setting! (Nor did it have MPEG4), but it did have a digital tuner, and Freeview that could receive 40 or so channels without subscription from an aerial.

    If DTT is accepted and HD is included, and works for most people without much fuss, the sky box could be dumped in favour of Freesat so easily that I think sky could lose half its market quite quickly.

    The saorsat idea is very attractive, because it is more like an aerial solution than a dish solution, and will be more acceptable in rural areas I would think, as it can be installed low down, and fed around to many tvs. I hope the satelllite makes it up to orbit.


  • #351
    FREETV
    Registered Users Posts: 1,673 ✭✭✭FREETV


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I think they would lose out if they did. UK Sterling prices are 20% to 30% cheaper.

    The main problem with them is that, for us, the most important fact about TVs is whether they have MPEG4 and MHEG5. This is rarely mentioned on UK sourced products, even if they have it. I was setting up a TV for someone (an LG iirc) and it did not even have Ireland as a country setting! (Nor did it have MPEG4), but it did have a digital tuner, and Freeview that could receive 40 or so channels without subscription from an aerial.

    If DTT is accepted and HD is included, and works for most people without much fuss, the sky box could be dumped in favour of Freesat so easily that I think sky could lose half its market quite quickly.

    The saorsat idea is very attractive, because it is more like an aerial solution than a dish solution, and will be more acceptable in rural areas I would think, as it can be installed low down, and fed around to many tvs. I hope the satelllite makes it up to orbit.
    You hit the nail on the head there Sam Russell, I can't see Tesco or Lidl ever charging us in Sterling even if the Euro should rise in value as a currency in the next twelve months or more. I predict between 35-40% of Sky customers will go Freesat or FTA in the next eighteen months from now and use Saorview or Saorsat for their remaining channel viewing lineup. I think that Watty was also pointing out the confusion, ignorance and lack of training and knowledge of the majority of sales people here about technology in general and specifications/technical requirements particularily with television broadcasts and services. :)


  • Advertisement
This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement