Is a politicians home fair game?

AudreyHepburn · 07-09-2013 7:51pm

The amount of people here who believe they have the right to traumatize children and families to make a point is a little worrying to be honest.

Phoebas · 07-09-2013 7:52pm

ScumLord wrote: »

Depends on your definition of good. If you mean "good" as is morally right then no, but if you mean "good" as in more effective at accomplishing their goal of making the politicians uncomfortable then, yes.

I suppose you could take it a step further and threaten to burn their house down with their families inside of they didn't do what you wanted. That would be really effective, but clearly morally wrong.

Annasopra · 07-09-2013 7:52pm

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

The amount of people here who believe they have the right to traumatize children and families to make a point is a little worrying to be honest.

I think it's quite heartening that the majority here see this as it is; shameful bullying

Am Chile · 07-09-2013 7:54pm

mango salsa wrote: »

Recently some protesters from the CAHWT water tax charges are protesting outside the homes of TDs.

I launched into a blistering attack on one of them yesterday for doing this.

In my view political protests are perfectly legitimate but it is completely morally wrong to protest outside the personal home of a politician. Other people I was speaking to agreed with me but the woman handing out the leaflets claimed the majority of people agree with her.

Regardless of what the issue is, Are the personal homes of politicians fair game for protests?

IM well aware there some people protesting and placing pickets outside tds homes-however they are nothing to do with cahwt-they are just Independent protesters separate from any campaign- mick barry in cork had this to say a while ago.

A leading figure in the Cork anti-property and water tax campaign has distanced the movement from claims that they plan to take their fight to the family homes of government politicians.

Mr Barry distanced the campaign from the tactic. "Picketing the family homes of those politicians is not the policy of the campaign.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2013/0611/world/home-pickets-aposnot-part-of-anti-tax-campaign-policyapos-233808.html

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Independent-Resistance/230497473763335

I can fully understand peoples anger and frustation in taking protests outsides tds homes and agree with the tactic- they are bringing the pain and misery to almost every home in ireland- they passed laws recently enough to make it easier for banks to evict people and repossess homes faster and they also threatned to restrict water supply to people who wont be able to afford to pay the water rates- so tds homes are more then fair game in my view-if anything protests outside tds homes should be stepped up by protesters-no use protesting outside their clinic when they arent even there.

A surge in the number of home repossessions is on the cards after the Central Bank decided to change the rules.

Debt-ravaged homeowners will no longer have one year's protection from having their houses repossessed.

The 12-month ban on banks taking back properties from homeowners in arrears is being cut to two months.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/home-repossessions-set-to-surge-as-12month-grace-period-is-cut-29361602.html

My name is URL · 07-09-2013 7:55pm

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Another staggeringly insightful post from Hootanany. So an individual TD makes the decision yeh?

Have you seen what happens to individuals who go against the party whip?

So essentially, yes.. individuals do make the decision. They toe the party line regardless of what they believe in, and those who don't are alienated and turfed out. They know what they're getting into by becoming a party member, and they are responsible for the expanding line between party and constituent representation.

If individuals make empty promises to their constituents, and then blatantly go back on them then they can and do expect to be protested against at an individual or personal level.

Phoebas · 07-09-2013 7:55pm

wexie wrote: »

Keeping that in mind I think everybody should feel free to make their lives as uncomfortable as possible within the bounds of the law.

If I got bad service from Tesco, should I feel free to seek out the home address of the local Tesco manager and call around to his house in order to make his life as uncomfortable as possible?

My name is URL · 07-09-2013 7:56pm

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

The amount of people here who believe they have the right to traumatize children and families to make a point is a little worrying to be honest.

It's not like yourself to be overly dramatic and emotive, Audrey

:pac:

AudreyHepburn · 07-09-2013 7:58pm

My name is URL wrote: »

It's not like yourself to be overly dramatic and emotive, Audrey

:pac:

Don't even bother trying to get a rise out of me.

wexie · 07-09-2013 7:59pm

Phoebas wrote: »

If I got bad service from Tesco, should I feel free to seek out the home address of the local Tesco manager and call around to his house in order to make his life as uncomfortable as possible?

That is an incredibly bad and naive comparison.

In your case I'd recommend you take it up with Tesco Ireland, or the UK head office.

You should try googling accountability.

tayto lover · 07-09-2013 7:59pm

My name is URL wrote: »

Are the personal homes of citizens fair game for government?

Yeah, they don't mind targeting our homes and families. Good enough for us - good enough for them.

Dyr · 07-09-2013 8:02pm

in normal, non bankrupt countries, no

Phoebas · 07-09-2013 8:03pm

wexie wrote: »

That is an incredibly bad and naive comparison.

In your case I'd recommend you take it up with Tesco Ireland, or the UK head office.

And people who have a problem with a politician are perfectly free to take it up with the politician at their place of work. And if that doesn't work, vote against them at the next election.

If that doesn't work then suck it up.

wexie wrote: »

You should try googling accountability.

You should try googling democracy.

Banjoxed · 07-09-2013 8:07pm

My name is URL wrote: »

Have you seen what happens to individuals who go against the party whip?

So essentially, yes.. individuals do make the decision. They toe the party line regardless of what they believe in, and those who don't are alienated and turfed out. They know what they're getting into by becoming a party member, and they are responsible for the expanding line between party and constituent representation.

If individuals make empty promises to their constituents, and then blatantly go back on them then they can and do expect to be protested against at an individual or personal level.

Or they could very simply be turfed out by the electorate at the next election.

wexie · 07-09-2013 8:08pm

Phoebas wrote: »

And people who have a problem with a politician are perfectly free to take it up with the politician at their place of work. And if that doesn't work, vote against them at the next election.

If that doesn't work then suck it up.

You should try googling democracy.

Oh believe me I have and in a democracy politicians should be accountable (there's that word again) to the people.....

Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.
H. L. Mencken

ScumLord · 07-09-2013 8:09pm

Phoebas wrote: »

If I got bad service from Tesco, should I feel free to seek out the home address of the local Tesco manager and call around to his house in order to make his life as uncomfortable as possible?

You're really comparing consumer service to politics? Politicians are managing your life and your children's life. Even though you don't see them everyday it is a very personal experience. Tescos aren't devaluing your wealth, they have little affect on you.

We seem very disconnected from our politicians and politics in general in this country. The government shouldn't be considered a service provider like any other company. They're our employees, it's our company their ruining and it affects our lives directly and intimately.

My name is URL · 07-09-2013 8:10pm

Phoebas wrote: »

And people who have a problem with a politician are perfectly free to take it up with the politician at their place of work

Their place of work is at home about 60% of the time...

You should look up democracy yourself. You shouldn't be long realising that it's something which depends on the allowance for all forms of protest within legal bounds.

bleg · 07-09-2013 8:12pm

Bertie Ahern should be harassed everywhere he goes.

Phoebas · 07-09-2013 8:13pm

wexie wrote: »

Oh believe me I have and in a democracy politicians should be accountable (there's that word again) to the people.....

They are - through the normal democratic process.

Let's be clear here. People who would turn up at a politicians private home are attempting to intimidate by applying personal rather than political pressure. That is deeply anti democratic.

Am Chile · 07-09-2013 8:17pm

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=269506039862478&set=pb.230497473763335.-2207520000.1378581357.&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=243058505840565&set=pb.230497473763335.-2207520000.1378581365.&type=3&theater

Phoebas · 07-09-2013 8:17pm

ScumLord wrote: »

You're really comparing consumer service to politics? Politicians are managing your life and your children's life. Even though you don't see them everyday it is a very personal experience. Tescos aren't devaluing your wealth, they have little affect on you.

We seem very disconnected from our politicians and politics in general in this country. The government shouldn't be considered a service provider like any other company. They're our employees, it's our company their ruining and it affects our lives directly and intimately.

Corporations have much more impact on my life than politicians do.

But if you don't like the Tesco example how about public services; if I don't like the service my kids are getting from their school, should I show up at the headmaster's home?
What is uniquely special about my local TD that makes it acceptable to turn up at his house?

ScumLord · 07-09-2013 8:18pm

Phoebas wrote: »

They are - through the normal democratic process.

Let's be clear here. People who would turn up at a politicians private home are attempting to intimidate by applying personal rather than political pressure. That is deeply anti democratic.

How?

We can't really just kick back, relax and just vote for the other guy at the next election when it comes around. People live day to day, politics takes months and years, for no good reason either.

ScumLord · 07-09-2013 8:19pm

Phoebas wrote: »

Corporations have much more impact on my life than politicians do.

But if you don't like the Tesco example how about public services; if I don't like the service my kids are getting from their school, should I show up at the headmaster's home?

If it's convenient to do so I don't see why not. See I come from a small town, many people probably would go directly to his house if they knew him and depending on the issue.

Aineoil · 07-09-2013 8:20pm

If a person doesn't like their boss does that give them the right to sit outside the boss's house and harass the boss, their partner and children?

Talk your issue out with the boss.

Whether your boss is male or female, the issue is with them, surely.

Bully boy tactics on the boss or that person's partner or children is just wrong.

Being a bully is just wrong, full stop.

I just take a very hard line on bullies who think bully boy/girl tactics are ok.

Bully tactics are never ok.

Bullies can destroy people and their lives.

ScumLord · 07-09-2013 8:23pm

Aineoil wrote: »

If a person doesn't like their boss does that give them the right to sit outside the boss's house and harass the boss, their partner and children?

Talk your issue out with the boss.

I actually have a friend who did just this. The boss wouldn't pay him, ignored and avoided him. My friend has children he needs the money so he eventually went to the house. I think he was justified in doing so.

Politicians affect you in your home.

blatantrereg · 07-09-2013 8:23pm

Not at all ok. People doing this should be told to move on by guards and if they don't then arrested. Nobody should be getting hassled at their home like that. Tolerating it sends a bad message.

Protesting their offices is fine.

Aineoil · 07-09-2013 8:24pm

ScumLord wrote: »

If it's convenient to do so I don't see why not. See I come from a small town, many people probably would go directly to his house if they knew him and depending on the issue.

That's still wrong. He should be allowed to live.

Am Chile · 07-09-2013 8:25pm

the three main banks have sent more than 12,000 legal letters to struggling householders threatening repossession.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/banks-imposing-draconian-rules-on-loan-deals-29554145.html

And a lot more houses then 12.000 will be receiving similar letters all because of recent new laws passed by government tds-for those of you who are saying tds homes are off limits etc- you sure are putting them on a higher pedestal then struggling homeowners-.

Phoebas · 07-09-2013 8:25pm

ScumLord wrote: »

How?

We can't really just kick back, relax and just vote for the other guy at the next election when it comes around. People live day to day, politics takes months and years, for no good reason either.

There are lots of ways of influencing politics short of voting every four or five years, including protesting.
But when you've exhausted those and you still haven't been able to get your way through argument, then you need to accept that you lost and suck it up.

Upping the anti by taking your argument to someones personal home when you failed when you took it to their workplace has no other purpose other than to intimidate. That is anti democratic.

COYVB · 07-09-2013 8:30pm

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

Yeah. They cant expect to ruin peoples lives by piling more taxes on people already on the brink and swan off home to forget about it and play happy families. We are not talking about blowing houses up but standing outside with some banners.

Id love to know what people with this kind of opinion think the governmental system actually operates like. I get the impression they think politicians are sitting around having meetings on how to screw the people of Ireland, laughing as they come up worth schemes more diabolical than the last.

That's far from how it works. These people have friends and family who are affected as badly by these things as the rest of the nation. Believe it or not, the majority of these guys are going for what they see as the fairest and least disruptive measures available for the tax payer.

Want a different system? Get off your arse, find like minded people and go do something about it. Raise awareness of the alternatives you've clearly put loads of time into developing and try to change how it all works. A motivated and dedicated public cannot be ignored or swept under the carpet. Indifference is Ireland's problem, not politicians

Am Chile · 07-09-2013 8:31pm

Phoebas wrote: »

There are lots of ways of influencing politics short of voting every four or five years, including protesting.
But when you've exhausted those and you still haven't been able to get your way through argument, then you need to accept that you lost and suck it up.

Upping the anti by taking your argument to someones personal home when you failed when you took it to their workplace has no other purpose other than to intimidate. That is anti democratic.

Are you somehow involved in party politics ? reading over your posts on this thread- the idea and suggestion of protesting outside their homes seems to really touch a nerve with you.

Dyr · 07-09-2013 8:31pm

Phoebas wrote: »

And people who have a problem with a politician are perfectly free to take it up with the politician at their place of work. And if that doesn't work, vote against them at the next election.

If that doesn't work then suck it up.

You should try googling democracy.

you should try booking a round of golf with the taoiseach or a personal audience with the minister for finance

Seachmall · 07-09-2013 8:31pm

Phoebas wrote: »

They are - through the normal democratic process.

Let's be clear here. People who would turn up at a politicians private home are attempting to intimidate by applying personal rather than political pressure. That is deeply anti democratic.

They're not attempting to intimidate, they're attempting make their protest more effective.

Protesting is fundamental to the democratic process and attempting to apply limitations to what is "acceptable" for a peaceful protest is deeply anti-democratic.

COYVB · 07-09-2013 8:36pm

Seachmall wrote: »

They're not attempting to intimidate, they're attempting make their protest more effective.

The only effective protest is one with more than a handful of people. The problem isn't those who protest (not counting those who resort to doing it at someone's home which is not acceptable IMO), it's those who don't. It's not what's being protested, it's the lack of effort to make the whole country understand the problems.

Irish people are, for the most part, collectively happy enough to be walked over by whoever wants to do it, and until that changes it's something thatll continue to happen

Phoebas · 07-09-2013 8:37pm

Seachmall wrote: »

They're not attempting to intimidate, they're attempting make their protest more effective.

Through intimidation. What possible reason would there be to take the protest into someone's personal life when there is a perfectly reasonable opportunity to protest at their place of work?

Seachmall wrote: »

Protesting is fundamental to the democratic process and attempting to apply limitations to what is "acceptable" for a peaceful protest is deeply anti-democratic.

Would it be acceptable to protest outside of the homes of the elderly parents of politicians? There are no limits at all - really?

Busted Flat. · 07-09-2013 8:38pm

Banjoxed wrote: »

Or they could very simply be turfed out by the electorate at the next election.

Big deal, what about the golden hand shake and pension.

flutered · 07-09-2013 8:39pm

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

Yeah. They cant expect to ruin peoples lives by piling more taxes on people already on the brink and swan off home to forget about it and play happy families. We are not talking about blowing houses up but standing outside with some banners.

yes indeed.

KERSPLAT! · 07-09-2013 8:40pm

Phoebas wrote: »

Through intimidation. What possible reason would there be to take the protest into someone's personal life when there is a perfectly reasonable opportunity to protest at their place of work?

I'm on the fence in regards to protesting outside a politician's house but I will ask, what is the point of protesting outside their office when it seems to be so ineffective?

Seachmall · 07-09-2013 8:41pm

Phoebas wrote: »

Through intimidation.

What intimidation? What are they threatening to do? To continue to stand outside the house?

What possible reason would there be to take the protest into someone's personal life when there is a perfectly reasonable opportunity to protest at their place of work?

Because it's too easy to ignore those who are negatively impacted by your decisions when you compartmentalise them into your 9 to 5.

There are no limits at all - really?

Really.

mayordenis · 07-09-2013 8:46pm

Anyone who it's ok is a dope.

There is no situation where politicians could please everyone, even if they were doing a pretty good job, so should politicians whether doing well or not ever have a moments peace? sure why stop there? lets just beat the ****e out of them all 24/7 while we're at it.

Phoebas · 07-09-2013 8:47pm

Princess Petulia Pissy Pants wrote: »

I'm on the fence in regards to protesting outside a politician's house but I will ask, what is the point of protesting outside their office when it seems to be so ineffective?

Maybe no point at all.

But I'd ask, why do people feel that they have a right for their protests to be effective? Sometimes you've got to accept that your argument didn't win the day and live with it.
Otherwise power belongs to those who are prepared to shout the loudest, or, in the case of bringing the political argument into the personal lives of individual politicians, power belongs to those who are prepared to intimidate.

paddy147 · 07-09-2013 8:50pm

mango salsa wrote: »

Recently some protesters from the CAHWT water tax charges are protesting outside the homes of TDs.

I launched into a blistering attack on one of them yesterday for doing this.

In my view political protests are perfectly legitimate but it is completely morally wrong to protest outside the personal home of a politician. Other people I was speaking to agreed with me but the woman handing out the leaflets claimed the majority of people agree with her.

Regardless of what the issue is, Are the personal homes of politicians fair game for protests?

Would Denis O'Briens home be fair game????:pac::pac:

Phoebas · 07-09-2013 8:51pm

Seachmall wrote: »

Really.

No limits at all!!! So you think that it is perfectly reasonable to target the families of politicians, their parents and their kids!

Seachmall · 07-09-2013 8:51pm

Phoebas wrote: »

why do people feel that they have a right for their protests to be effective?

Because they have that right.

Phoebas wrote: »

No limits at all!!! So you think that it is perfectly reasonable to target the families of politicians, their parents and their kids!

Peaceful protests are an extremely important part of democracy. As soon as you try to limit them you're infringing on the democratic process.

paddy147 · 07-09-2013 8:53pm

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Political protests should be done outside political offices.

Not when they're shopping, not when they're in a pub, not outside their house, outside their offices.

......while using tax payers money to fund a lavish lifestyle??:pac:

My name is URL · 07-09-2013 8:54pm

mayordenis wrote: »

lets just beat the ****e out of them all 24/7 while we're at it.

Let's just make insane leaps of logic to make our positions seem more reasonable :rolleyes:

Annasopra · 07-09-2013 8:54pm

Am Chile wrote: »

IM well aware there some people protesting and placing pickets outside tds homes-however they are nothing to do with cahwt-they are just Independent protesters separate from any campaign

No

The Wicklow CAHWT clearly organised a protest outside a TDs house today.

Phoebas · 07-09-2013 8:55pm

Seachmall wrote: »

Because they have that right.

Let me get this straight. Its ok to protest at a politician's personal home because there is a legal right to do so?

Annasopra · 07-09-2013 8:57pm

Seachmall wrote: »

They're not attempting to intimidate, they're attempting make their protest more effective.

Protesting is fundamental to the democratic process and attempting to apply limitations to what is "acceptable" for a peaceful protest is deeply anti-democratic.

It is nothing less than intimindation.

Seachmall · 07-09-2013 8:58pm

Phoebas wrote: »

Let me get this straight. Its ok to protest at a politician's personal home because there is a legal right to do so?

Because it is a required right.

Phoebas · 07-09-2013 8:59pm

Seachmall wrote: »

Peaceful protests are an extremely important part of democracy. As soon as you try to limit them you're infringing on the democratic process.

Wow. You honestly believe its ok to deliberately target the children of politicians for protest.
That is an pretty extremist position to take.

Is a politicians home fair game?

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