N4 since the toll road opened

Saruman · 23-02-2006 12:18pm #1

Has anyone noticed (and it may have been posted) that once the new M4 toll way opened the speed limit on the N4 dropped from 100 to 80 along the whole stretch until after Kinnegad?

It used to be 100 from Kilcock then dropping to 80 on the way to enfield then 100 from Enfield.. then it alternated between the two for a while until Kinnegad.
Its like they are forcing drivers on to the overpriced motorway by making it illegal for them to drive at 100kph on a long straight stretch of road when it was perfectly safe before the motorway.

Hagar · 23-02-2006 12:20pm

Shock horror gasp. They wouldn't do that would they...

spacetweek · 23-02-2006 3:38pm

Saruman wrote:

Has anyone noticed (and it may have been posted) that once the new M4 toll way opened the speed limit on the N4 dropped from 100 to 80 along the whole stretch until after Kinnegad?

It used to be 100 from Kilcock then dropping to 80 on the way to enfield then 100 from Enfield.. then it alternated between the two for a while until Kinnegad.
Its like they are forcing drivers on to the overpriced motorway by making it illegal for them to drive at 100kph on a long straight stretch of road when it was perfectly safe before the motorway.

That'll be because the N4 used be a national route (with a max speed limit of 100 km/h), but now it's only a regional route whose max can only be 80. Hence the change.

Saruman · 23-02-2006 6:58pm

???? Why is it only a regional route? Its still the N4 which is a national road. It has not been replaced with a new national route.. A private toll motorway has been added alongside it, so should it still not be a national route??

murphaph · 23-02-2006 7:26pm

Saruman wrote:

???? Why is it only a regional route? Its still the N4 which is a national road. It has not been replaced with a new national route.. A private toll motorway has been added alongside it, so should it still not be a national route??

It's not the N4 anymore. The M4 is only a name, the motorway's legal name is N4 and the old N4 now has a regional road number. It's a con alright. National routes replaced by tolled motorways should retain their original speed limits IMO.

cormthechippy · 23-02-2006 7:36pm

That's ridiculas. Speed limits don't always make sense in Ireland. Some of the dodgiest country lanes with grass in the middle of the road, are 80km/h! And then just because the old N4 looses it's name, it gets the same limit? Ridiculas, 100km/h is perfectly safe. It's the same story with the old N1 near Julianstown anyway, 80km/h limits with Gatso's, and signs still show N1 on them. Speed limits should be dished out, and suited to the exact road in question, not just "this is a secondary route, with more bends than a roundabout, but sure 100km/h is grand". The N81 from Blessington to Baltinglass is atrocious, a vicious road, and a 100km/h limit. Most of the time it's impossible to even reach near that.

Saruman · 23-02-2006 8:08pm

Agreed... and then you have 3 lane dual carriageways like the Naas road with 50kph coming off the M50 (120kph).

This is obviously the government trying to force people onto the toll road.
I mean in fairness i use the Toll road most of the time.. it may be €2.50 each way but its a LOT quicker and more importantly far less hassle and less stressfull than being stuck behind slow trucks and cars on the old road.

However its still unfair to change the speed limit down or change the roads designation.

TheBigLebowski · 23-02-2006 8:26pm

80 kmh is a safe speed limit for that road in my opinion. 100 was too high. Do you people not see how many people are being killed on our roads? It's happening on roads just like that.

murphaph · 23-02-2006 9:29pm

TheBigLebowski wrote:

80 kmh is a safe speed limit for that road in my opinion. 100 was too high. Do you people not see how many people are being killed on our roads? It's happening on roads just like that.

The limit on that road wasn't all 100km/h. What makes the former 100km/h stretches less safe since the motorway opened? The road may in fact be a bit safer as there are fewer cars to crash! Your 'logic' implies we should cut all speed limits without any thought.

DerekP11 · 23-02-2006 10:02pm

Drove the M4 yesterday, not a truck in sight. One glance left to the old N4 and the trucks were streaming along it. Was on it during peak hours and traffic was very light. Its a great road, but couldn't be making money for the operator.

Litcagral · 23-02-2006 10:10pm

spacetweek wrote:

That'll be because the N4 used be a national route (with a max speed limit of 100 km/h), but now it's only a regional route whose max can only be 80. Hence the change.

Same thing happened to the N1 when the M1 was opened. The limit was reduced to 80kph and it was rebadged the R132.

cormthechippy · 23-02-2006 11:26pm

It's suprising how many northern cars still used the old N1 to travel north, why in the name of God?!

TheBigLebowski · 24-02-2006 3:50am

murphaph wrote:

The limit on that road wasn't all 100km/h. What makes the former 100km/h stretches less safe since the motorway opened? The road may in fact be a bit safer as there are fewer cars to crash! Your 'logic' implies we should cut all speed limits without any thought.

My "logic implies" that 100 was too high (for any stretch of the N4 between Kilcock and Enfield) in the 1st place as I stated. I drive it at 80 and at no point do I feel I'm driving too slow.

Our man in Havana · 24-02-2006 4:48am

cormthechippy wrote:

It's suprising how many northern cars still used the old N1 to travel north, why in the name of God?!

Tight Bastards?

murphaph · 24-02-2006 9:11am

TheBigLebowski wrote:

My "logic implies" that 100 was too high (for any stretch of the N4 between Kilcock and Enfield) in the 1st place as I stated. I drive it at 80 and at no point do I feel I'm driving too slow.

So you personally feel 100km/h to be too high, fine. Grannies often feel like 50km/h is fast enough on a motorway, should we make that the new 'safe' speed limit on them? Course not-the former stretches with 100km/h were fine and would have been safer as fewer cars are using them. Slashing speed limits across the land in recent years hasn't saved any lives by the way. We're still killing each other in the same numbers as before metrication when 90% of Ireland's roads saw a decrease in speed limit.

Hagar · 24-02-2006 9:22am

cormthechippy wrote:

It's suprising how many northern cars still used the old N1 to travel north, why in the name of God?!

They may be observing the law.
1) They may be driving on a provisional which doesn't allow them to drive on motorways, a law that most people in the South seem to ignore.
2) They may have their full licence for less than 1 year and cannot drive on a motorway unaccompanied.

murphaph · 24-02-2006 9:55am

Hagar wrote:

They may be observing the law.
1) They may be driving on a provisional which doesn't allow them to drive on motorways, a law that most people in the South seem to ignore.

They wouldn't legally be allowed to drive outside the UK on a provisional (and possibly just NI given the peculiar licencing laws up there), accompanied or otherwise.

mackerski · 24-02-2006 10:39am

spacetweek wrote:

That'll be because the N4 used be a national route (with a max speed limit of 100 km/h), but now it's only a regional route whose max can only be 80. Hence the change.

There is no law preventing a local authority from applying a limit higher than the 80km/h default to a regional road. Likewise, it is valid and legal to apply a 120km/h limit to a "Green Motorway". Can we get a sticky thread for this particular misconception? It seems to crop up weekly.

Dermot

jlang · 24-02-2006 11:15am

It is valid and legal, but it has to be officially declared by the local council. Without the council actively doing so, the speed limit will have to fall to the default for the new class of road. The issue of planning and accesses to the road from neighbouring fields (sites) also arises as it's easier to develop land along the alignment if the speed limit is lower. As councils can't impose direct taxes, development levies are a major source of income.

Capt'n Midnight · 24-02-2006 2:58pm

cormthechippy wrote:

It's suprising how many northern cars still used the old N1 to travel north, why in the name of God?!

another reason is they might be tourists and going to somewhere local, and/or bypassing the Drogheda toll bridge.

After you pass a test up north you have to wear R plates for a year and are limited in the speed you can go. None of your answer a multiple choice and then do 70mph on a motorway with having to worry about anyone checking you on you up there.

Saruman · 24-02-2006 5:13pm

jlang wrote:

It is valid and legal, but it has to be officially declared by the local council. Without the council actively doing so, the speed limit will have to fall to the default for the new class of road. The issue of planning and accesses to the road from neighbouring fields (sites) also arises as it's easier to develop land along the alignment if the speed limit is lower. As councils can't impose direct taxes, development levies are a major source of income.

Exactly... i noticed that today in Mullingar! 100kph road from Mullingar to Tyrellspass and on to Tullamore.

@TheBigLebowski I was not talking about the short stretch from Kilcock to enfield.. i was talking about the whole length to Kinnegad. As i said it was 100 from kilcock (where its long and straight) then when it narrows and winds it was 80 then from enfield it was 100 again except at narrower bendy sections where it was 80. they were perfectly fine speed limits as they were and STILL if i was doing 100 i would have someone overtake me.

Speed limits do not save lives unless enforced... and speed does not kill, careless driving kills.. what kills people is overtaking 20 cars and hitting a truck head on. Thats what kills... not the fact you are driving fast.
What we need on rural roads are lots of slow lanes every few miles where possible... people are not going to be too impatient if they know they can overtake a slow driver a few mins down the road!

mackerski · 24-02-2006 6:04pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

After you pass a test up north you have to wear R plates for a year and are limited in the speed you can go.

Not on this side of the border - there's no provision in Irish law to restrict the scope of a full EU licence.

Dermot

MT · 24-02-2006 8:31pm

I’m not usually one for conspiracy theories but is there a cynical political motive behind the downgrading of national routes that have been bypassed by new stretches of motorway to R status? Does this transfer the cost of their maintenance to the DoE and local authorities from the NRA/DoT* allowing the latter to spend most of their budget on vote grabbing… er, building shiny new roads.

I understand the reasoning behind removing the N4 route number: this has been taken by the motorway and would be quite confusing if left in place as M4 and N4 sound alike. But could a new, unused Nx not have been assigned? A routes, often primary, are found running alongside motorways throughout the UK. Of course, the various departments responsible for roads in Britain can’t offload them to some other department through reclassification.

And why have some of the downgraded routes still not had their signage changed to reflect this? The situation on the R132 is completely misleading. I mean I’ve heard of the manana culture in Spain but there must be a never ethos in local government down there! Why do LAs in the Republic find maintenance/keeping things up to date such an overwhelming task – is it just laziness? They make your typically lethargic authority in NI look like a well oiled machine.

After all, it’s the land of the Celtic tiger for goodness sakes: putting up road signs can hardly compare to manufacturing high-tech components for Intel!!

*Shouldn't this department really be the DoST - Department of Some Transport for when it comes to the road network it only has authority over a bit of it?

murphaph · 24-02-2006 8:37pm

MT wrote:

is it just laziness?

Yes.

Litcagral · 24-02-2006 8:43pm

cormthechippy wrote:

It's suprising how many northern cars still used the old N1 to travel north, why in the name of God?!

Louth residents?, many of whom drive NI registered vehicles

cormthechippy · 25-02-2006 1:39am

Litcagral wrote:

Louth residents?, many of whom drive NI registered vehicles

Good point. I'd love to live near the border, I love the north.

KeithMur · 25-02-2006 1:53pm

Saruman wrote:

Exactly... i noticed that today in Mullingar! 100kph road from Mullingar to Tyrellspass and on to Tullamore.

The Mullingar to Tyrellspass to Tullamore road is a national route N52 hence the 100kph. It probably shouldn't be with all the crashes that happened there just outside Mullingar a couple of years back, but when you leave things to the councils to do themselves you can be sure that nothing will be done.

jesus_thats_gre · 25-02-2006 6:29pm

Bond-007 wrote:

Tight Bastards?

My ould fella (northern incidently) would agree with you.. He reckons the country are the tightest shower..

Litcagral wrote:

Louth residents?, many of whom drive NI registered vehicles

Would be doing this myself if I was back in me home town

register her in my grand parents place in Newry

SeanW · 10-07-2006 11:17pm

Sorry for bumping this old thread, but I'm looking for the "old" N4 and can't find any maps of it on the Internet. I may need to go to/from Dublin soon and have to avoid the motorway completely. What route numbers were the old roads or is there an easy way to identify it?

Capt'n Midnight · 10-07-2006 11:49pm

SeanW wrote:

What route numbers were the old roads or is there an easy way to identify it?

It used to be known as the T3.

But it's still signposted as the N4 with Green signs.

http://www.aaroadwatch.ie/routes/ - click the box to avoid motorways.

That 80 Kmph section would be an ideal candidate for 2+1 as it's wide enough. Instead much of it has a central rservation of white hatching. Took about 27 minutes to bypass the tolled section of motorway on Friday.

SeanW · 11-07-2006 12:01am

Cheers

Bogger77 · 11-07-2006 10:56am

Lucan - Leixlep - Maynooth-Kilcock- Then follow the N4 signs.

mackerski · 11-07-2006 10:59am

Bogger77 wrote:

Lucan - Leixlep - Maynooth-Kilcock- Then follow the N4 signs.

Don't do that unless you also want to avoid the free section of motorway.

Dermot

Bogger77 · 11-07-2006 11:10am

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

It used to be known as the T3.

But it's still signposted as the N4 with Green signs.

http://www.aaroadwatch.ie/routes/ - click the box to avoid motorways.

That 80 Kmph section would be an ideal candidate for 2+1 as it's wide enough. Instead much of it has a central rservation of white hatching. Took about 27 minutes to bypass the tolled section of motorway on Friday.

Unfortunately Kildare and Westmeath CoCo's have ensured for the last 5 or 6 years that the N4-N6 route from Rochfordbridge to Kilcock has been at 50mph/80kph. The only sections of 100kph are in Meath. From my recollection, there's just as high accident rate on both sections. 27minutes from Kinnegad to Kilcock would appear to be about right, it's 18miles.

Bogger77 · 11-07-2006 11:11am

mackerski wrote:

Don't do that unless you also want to avoid the free section of motorway.

Dermot

They asked to avoid motorway, guessing L plates.

mackerski · 11-07-2006 11:13am

Bogger77 wrote:

They asked to avoid motorway, guessing L plates.

Sure enough - the thread title had me focused on the word "toll".

Dermot

Bogger77 · 11-07-2006 11:18am

it's def the slow road. Maynooth can be a bitch to get through, but Leixlep is a nightmare seemingly

Tom Dunne · 11-07-2006 12:00pm

They are doing up the Salmon Leap bridge on the Dublin side of Leixlip, there are temporary traffic lights in place and it is a pain to get through.

Having said that Maynooth and Kilcock aren't exactly plain sailing either.

Imposter · 11-07-2006 5:34pm

Bogger77 wrote:

Unfortunately Kildare and Westmeath CoCo's have ensured for the last 5 or 6 years that the N4-N6 route from Rochfordbridge to Kilcock has been at 50mph/80kph. The only sections of 100kph are in Meath. From my recollection, there's just as high accident rate on both sections. 27minutes from Kinnegad to Kilcock would appear to be about right, it's 18miles.

Rochfortbridge to Kinnegad should be at 80kph. That road is awful and there are a lot of houses and entrances along it.

icdg · 11-07-2006 9:00pm

Indeed, the building of the Great Wall of Leixlip (an upgrade of the Salmon Leap Bridge which is proeeding at an extraordinarly snails pace) has a stop-go on the bridge a good chunk of the time.

Don't go looking for any N4 signs in Leixlip or Maynooth. You won't find any, what signage there is in Leixlip village (and incredible there is still no directional signage at the town's main junction, Captain's Hill, even though its the split between the R148 and R149) is practically all R-road white. There was never much N4 signage in the first place IIR.

spacetweek · 11-07-2006 10:09pm

icdg wrote:

Indeed, the building of the Great Wall of Leixlip (an upgrade of the Salmon Leap Bridge which is proeeding at an extraordinarly snails pace) has a stop-go on the bridge a good chunk of the time.

Don't go looking for any N4 signs in Leixlip or Maynooth. You won't find any, what signage there is in Leixlip village (and incredible there is still no directional signage at the town's main junction, Captain's Hill, even though its the split between the R148 and R149) is practically all R-road white. There was never much N4 signage in the first place IIR.

Haven't been round Leixlip way in a long time, which bridge is the Salmon Leap Bridge? Is it the smelly one beside the chipper or the one as you enter the town from Lucan? What work is being done?

Bogger77 · 11-07-2006 10:34pm

Imposter wrote:

Rochfortbridge to Kinnegad should be at 80kph. That road is awful and there are a lot of houses and entrances along it.

It's road surface quality has only gone downhill since the reduction of speed on it. No new house went up on it, and the accident rate on that road was never that bad. The CoCo have used the 80kph limit to avoid doing the simple things like leveling the margins of the road with the main road surface, drainage works and the like. The condition of the road through all Westmeath's towns on the N6, apart from Moate is brutal, Miltownpass and Tyrellspass in particular.

spacetweek · 12-07-2006 9:21pm

Bogger77 wrote:

It's road surface quality has only gone downhill since the reduction of speed on it. No new house went up on it, and the accident rate on that road was never that bad. The CoCo have used the 80kph limit to avoid doing the simple things like leveling the margins of the road with the main road surface, drainage works and the like. The condition of the road through all Westmeath's towns on the N6, apart from Moate is brutal, Miltownpass and Tyrellspass in particular.

True but will be a moot (moate?) point within about 2 years.

Tom Dunne · 13-07-2006 2:34pm

spacetweek wrote:

which bridge is the Salmon Leap Bridge? Is it the smelly one beside the chipper or the one as you enter the town from Lucan?

tom dunne wrote:

They are doing up the Salmon Leap bridge on the Dublin side of Leixlip

westtip · 14-07-2006 12:03am

Saruman wrote:

Has anyone noticed (and it may have been posted) that once the new M4 toll way opened the speed limit on the N4 dropped from 100 to 80 along the whole stretch until after Kinnegad?

It used to be 100 from Kilcock then dropping to 80 on the way to enfield then 100 from Enfield.. then it alternated between the two for a while until Kinnegad.
Its like they are forcing drivers on to the overpriced motorway by making it illegal for them to drive at 100kph on a long straight stretch of road when it was perfectly safe before the motorway.

You are dead right, why do you think they put traffic lights on the Enfield "by-pass", you will also notice on the old N4 the road has been narrowed by the extended use of a painted no go area in the middle of the raod for much of the section past Mother Hubbards (which by the way must have lost a lot of business), I use the motorway as an occasional user, and it enables me to finish the journey quickly to the East Coast, or make a good quick start on the way out West (one hour from Greystones to the Covert just north of Mullingar - with Motorway dual/carriageway for 71 miles from Bray, now the M4 to Mullingar and the southern section of the M50 are finished it takes so much of the misery out of the journey to the west. But I did use the old road recently and noticed the additional chevrons in the road and the lower speed limit. I would be interested if regular daily commuters from points West of Kilcock are using the motorway at 2.50 each way it will add 25 euro a week to the cost of commuting - is it worth it if you live in say Enfield, or Kinnegad for the ten minutes you save each way every day. What's it like in the morning at say 7.45, are the regulars using the motorway or the old N4? Just interested to hear

N4 since the toll road opened

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