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PSU EGM - 4th July

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  • Registered Users Posts: 48 Teslacuted


    Subject: Access to email lists
    From: "Hugh O'Brien" <hugh.obrien<>ul.ie>
    To: itss<>ul.ie

    Good afternoon,

    Last week I made use of the Taught Postgraduates and Research Postgraduates
    list to discuss an ongoing political issue within the postgraduates student
    union.

    Today I attempted to make use of this list again and received an automated
    reply stating that I was not authorised.

    As mentioned, these lists were being used for an urgent political issue and
    the sudden, unannounced changes to their access policy are quite unwelcome.

    Could you please, at least for the coming weeks, restore the ability for
    postgraduates to send to these lists? Was there a particular reason for the
    change?

    Thank you,

    Hugh O'Brien

    This part partly redacted, as I imagine the ITD person wants nothing to do with this. I'm presuming their permission to post it.
    From: XXXXX <XXXXX<>ul.ie>
    To: Information Technology Student Support
    <Information.Technology.Student.Support<>ul.ie>, Hugh.O'Brien
    <Hugh.OBrien<>ul.ie>
    Subject: RE: Access to email lists

    Hi Hugh,


    This change was requested by Seamus Noonan, the Students Union President.
    He was getting complaints from members of those lists about inappropriate use of those lists and they were asking to be removed from said lists

    Regards

    XXXX


    As mentioned, the opinions list (an additional list, unrelated to the PSU in any way) has now been closed off to me. It could only be his work as I've caused much bigger controversies there in the past without issue.

    Also note that the ITD person misunderstood Seamus' position, and likely his authority. Seamus Noonan may be suffering from megalomania. I suggest we help him through this troubling time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,300 ✭✭✭freyners


    To be quite honest, Im glad thats been done. We get enough needless crap in our emails without getting more of it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 48 Teslacuted


    freyners wrote: »
    To be quite honest, Im glad thats been done. We get enough needless crap in our emails without getting more of it.

    Fair enough, but to do it secretly, and suddenly, avoiding any consultation with those his office represents, yet doing it in their name, and without providing an alternative, in the midst of a scandal that's personally damaging to him, thus effectively silencing dissent, and to go further and directly influence my personal access to a non-PSU related list for my audacious act of criticising him?

    Abuse of power. And that's before we discuss matters (a) through (g).


  • Registered Users Posts: 16 nutsnboltz1


    I just don't get what he's going to do with the 120,000 I mean thats a lot of money, he has failed to explain how his student hardship fund will be administered who will decide who qualifies for support ...... the president I mean that is clearly open for abuse, will the PSU not have to hire additional staff to administer this project, if so will there actually be interviews for these jobs or are they for the presidents mates??

    (a)Are these grants that the PSU will be offering, short term loans?
    (b)Can we really trust someone who does not believe in transparency and accountability with this amount of money ?
    (c) Another point to note is that the external account was removed from the draft constitution (very dodgy)
    (d)Under the draft constitution only the President and the VP have to sign off on expenditure so if the President is chumming it with the VP then this would be open to wide scale abuse.
    (e) The PSU is not a bank a building society or part of the social welfare system. I know that many postgrads are finding it tough, I know this year was very difficult finically for me but this is not the role of the PSU it's primary role is to represent Students.


  • Registered Users Posts: 48 Teslacuted


    I think the question of trust has been answered many times over. I'm no longer interested in debating the proposed changes. I'm interested in making a case for his removal. He's had more than enough time to act responsibly, it's now our responsibility to clean up the mess we made by electing him.

    No employee in any job could mess up this badly without being shown the door.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,334 ✭✭✭reunion


    Teslacuted wrote: »
    I think the question of trust has been answered many times over. I'm no longer interested in debating the proposed changes. I'm interested in making a case for his removal. He's had more than enough time to act responsibly, it's now our responsibility to clean up the mess we made by electing him.

    No employee in any job could mess up this badly without being shown the door.

    I think that is a little too much too fast... I mean by the AGM if we have another constitution which is attempted to be rushed through without consultation from members and another new PSU website; he should be reconsidered immediately. My only concern would be filling the vacancy mid-term as the PSU, in general, isn't that well contested during normal election time.


    I find the all students emails annoying and ITD should stop all these emails. You should have to request access not automatically be given the right to email everyone. God knows I get sooo many HOUSE TO RENT emails each year. Granted there was that one funny email chain a year or 2 ago.


  • Registered Users Posts: 48 Teslacuted


    His intentions are clear for anyone to see, both from his own writings and from his actions on record, (and from some of his off-record, but noted, actions). I think there's more than enough to make a strong case. We shouldn't shy away from some ugliness when it's justified and the alternatives are much worse.


  • Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭DaveR1


    Teslacuted wrote: »
    His intentions are clear for anyone to see, both from his own writings and from his actions on record, (and from some of his off-record, but noted, actions). I think there's more than enough to make a strong case. We shouldn't shy away from some ugliness when it's justified and the alternatives are much worse.

    I'm afraid in this instance I agree....... Enough is enough and the situation needs to be dealt with before it gets out of control. His intentions have been made clear. To go to ITD about one in particular person and have his personal e-mail settings altered is an absolute abuse of power and can't be tolerated.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,334 ✭✭✭reunion


    DaveR1 wrote: »
    I'm afraid in this instance I agree....... Enough is enough and the situation needs to be dealt with before it gets out of control. His intentions have been made clear. To go to ITD about one in particular person and have his personal e-mail settings altered is an absolute abuse of power and can't be tolerated.

    I think it should be noted here that it was ALL students not just one student (as far as I understand).

    I am in favour of removing the ability of people notifying me about an empty room in college court. Hardly Seamus' fault that ITD have been allowing such stupid emails to be sent to all students. I think stopping people emailling everyone would be a plus out of Seamus' rather short time as PSU president.

    I'm certain if you talked to the ULSU president (as post-grads are members of that too!), they can notify Post-grads with a single email and not spam them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 48 Teslacuted


    As I said, in addition to him shutting down the postgrad list in the middle of a discussion regarding his actions, my personal access to the unrelated 'opinions' list was removed shortly after moving the discussion over to there.
    From: Microsoft Outlook
    <MicrosoftExchange329e71ec88ae4615bbc36ab6ce41109e<>staffmail.ul.ie>
    To: <Hugh.OBrien<>ul.ie>
    Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 20:20:05 +0100
    Subject: Undeliverable: PSU: New Constitution

    Delivery has failed to these recipients or groups:

    Opinions (Opinions2<>ul.ie)<mailto:Opinions2<>ul.ie>
    Your message can't be delivered because delivery to this address is restricted.

    I had successfully posted to this list on '2014-07-11 16:42', Seamus replied at 17:37, and the censorship was applied immediately after.

    Let me say this again for clarity, first Seamus shut down postgraduate access to the postgraduate list, while retaining access himself. This shutdown occurred during a conversation about his actions. The list would rarely see more than one email a week.

    When I found myself denied access to the postgrad list, I moved the discussion to the UL opinions list, which is an optional subscription for anyone with a staff or research email address. I posted, he replied, and then when I went to reply again, I was denied access. He is shutting down any dissenting discussion of his unjustifiable actions. Is this the man you want acting in your name?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,300 ✭✭✭freyners


    Teslacuted wrote: »
    As I said, in addition to him shutting down the postgrad list in the middle of a discussion regarding his actions, my personal access to the unrelated 'opinions' list was removed shortly after moving the discussion over to there.



    I had successfully posted to this list on '2014-07-11 16:42', Seamus replied at 17:37, and the censorship was applied immediately after.

    Does that list send an email to every post grad?


  • Registered Users Posts: 48 Teslacuted


    freyners wrote: »
    Does that list send an email to every post grad?

    Edited my post for clarity. All staff / post-grads are subscribed to 'opinions' by default, but can easily unsubscribe. ITD documentation online discusses how.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28 Kelefants


    I currently have 6 posts that I copied and pasted from here to the wordpress site addressing Séamus which he is yet to respond to. It has been almost a week. Now one might think he just hasn't seen it, however he has responded to one of the questions that was posed at the same time by me. Once again, further stifling of discussions regarding his actions.

    I am curious as to the constant use of (the royal) we he uses. Who is he speaking for? Does his exec back him? Considering he tried to remove two members of exec (clubs and socs rep and Mary I rep) I would think he doesn't give a fiddlers.

    I also must ask Reunion and I hope you don't take this the wrong way but, what will it take before you would seek his removal? Considering everything he's done, and every chance he's been given, how many more chances are you willing to give him? I'm genuinely curious as to why you still have faith that he can turn this around.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,334 ✭✭✭reunion


    Kelefants wrote: »
    I also must ask Reunion and I hope you don't take this the wrong way but, what will it take before you would seek his removal? Considering everything he's done, and every chance he's been given, how many more chances are you willing to give him? I'm genuinely curious as to why you still have faith that he can turn this around.

    How long has he been in office? about a month/month and a half?

    As far as I'm aware, he doesn't have experience in industry nor with the Students' Unions (PSU, ULSU or C&S) and that this is really his first experience with such a large and broad membership. There is a learning curve and I personally know, my first time on a committee, I wanted to change a lot too quickly and I can see how that might be considered a grab for power.

    Also I don't believe he is intentionally malicious and I honestly don't think he'd take the job of president to change the constitution so that he can pay himself/his friends to go to meetings or hire his friends. I believe that he has just tried to do too much too fast. If he takes this as an opportunity to learn from his mistakes, not rush extreme changes, listen to every member (and other bodies UL, ULSU, C&S and former sabbats) and correctly inform members then everyone wins really.

    I feel a vote to remove him is way too quick and an overreaction to a mistake and not really giving him a chance to learn.

    If you are the defeated candidate I understand why you want him removed :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 48 Teslacuted


    reunion wrote: »
    There is a learning curve and I personally know, my first time on a committee, I wanted to change a lot too quickly and I can see how that might be considered a grab for power.

    That would be a very reasonable explanation, if he was taking the time to learn the ropes, engage with his colleagues and the students he represents, hold discussions on issues he wasn't sure of yet, and promote an atmosphere of positive engagement and progress.

    Sadly, he is doing the opposite of all of those things. Censorship. Misleading legal claims. Rushing votes. Nepotism. Cancelling meetings when caught out. Dismissing rooms full of students who want to know what's going on. Not replying to online questions and silencing the discussions of others.

    Justification for removal has never been so definitive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,334 ✭✭✭reunion


    Teslacuted wrote: »
    That would be a very reasonable explanation, if he was taking the time to learn the ropes, engage with his colleagues and the students he represents, hold discussions on issues he wasn't sure of yet, and promote an atmosphere of positive engagement and progress.

    Sadly, he is doing the opposite of all of those things. Censorship. Misleading legal claims. Rushing votes. Nepotism. Cancelling meetings when caught out. Dismissing rooms full of students who want to know what's going on. Not replying to online questions and silencing the discussions of others.

    Justification for removal has never been so definitive.

    I have since been informed privately by someone else about more concerns regarding Seamus current tenure. I'm shocked that I created this thread and someone else more informed didn't. I'm off campus at the moment (but still a post-grad). All I knew (at the time) was an EGM was called quite quickly to change the constitution which didn't give me, as an off campus post-grad member, enough notice nor was I informed of these proposed changes. So I created this thread to try to advertise the EGM a little better (and hopefully get some conversation on such a massive change to the constitution).

    Just to note; I was never against his removal nor was I for it. I personally feel that removing someone from office should really be a last resort after every avenue has been explored.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18 Keano84


    Just bumped into this thread now as I was forwarded on the below email and was curious to what is going on. As an MIC Postgrad in my first year I am concerned that we are potentially loosing our connection with the UL PSU. I deleted some irrelevant material from the below email but it speaks for its self in relation to the removal of the MISU Rep. I am not the MISU Rep btw :)




    Dear all,

    Sincere apologies for the delayed reply I have been out of office on contract work over the last two weeks, I would like you all to take serious note of this email, perhaps grab a strong coffee before reading, instant will do. I have divided this email in three sections:

    3. Constitutional Changes. If you want to get to the serious part skip to part three.

    We must look at the national state of Postgraduate studies in the country, cuts of funding, manipulation of calls for research funding, a blatant lack of employee rights or training for Postgraduates that work as lecturers or those who give tutorials. The low rate of employment for PhD graduates, work schemes coercing MA and PhD graduates into lackluster positions. But hey, that is just my two cents…



    3. Constitutional amendments
    Now that the housekeeping is out of the way, I would like to point you all in the direction of a more important issue. I noticed on the proposed “new” agenda that the MISU Representative has been taken out of the Executive team. This is a grave concern to me personally but also to the MISU.
    Unlike UL having two SU’s, Mary Immaculate College has one SU. The MISU Postgraduate Officer acts as an executive member of the MISU.
    a) We have our own constitution, the Postgraduate Officers role according to the current - 2013/14 MIC Constitution is;
    " (v) The Postgraduate Officer shall liaise with all postgraduate class representatives and the Postgrad Students Union in the University of Limerick, where s/he is a full member, regarding their activities and those of the Union."

    b) The current UL PSU constitution lists the MISU representative as:
    “Article 8. Executive: 8.1 Executive shall consist of a Mary Immaculate College Representative”
    This current version that was passed through quorum in May 2014, lists this position seven times throughout the document. This is in accordance with the MISU constitution. I ensured that the wording and position remained the same as the previous constitution to avoid a referendum in MIC.

    c) The draft ‘proposed’ constitution, lists this role at a lower standing of PSU council, and lists the position once in the document:
    “ARTICLE VIII: PSU COUNCIL 1. e. A Mary Immaculate College Representative.”
    It also fails to list the responsibilities or role of the position. I am aware that the UL PSU can change their constitution by quorum (50 persons). However your proposed draft eliminates the position of the Mary Immaculate Representative from the Executive Team, hence not complying with the MISU constitution.

    It is imperative to note that the MISU constitution may only be amended by referendum. A referendum can be called by the Executive Committee (MISU), Union Council or a petition from at least 15% of the Union’s membership. For a referendum to be valid, at least 10% of Union members must vote, that is 353 students of MIC. If you can all understand this causes a multitude of problems for MIC. We would have to hold a referendum costing in excess of €2,000 for printing and staff, we would need to get 353 minimum number of students to vote and an executive committee to veto the referendum. All which is impossible as they are mostly undergrads and not on campus till September. You then need to give two weeks notice during the academic year.
    I hope all members of the UL PSU Executive team realise the basic fact that the University of Limerick awards all Undergraduate and Postgraduate degrees of Mary Immaculate College. More importantly, all Postgraduate courses and running of the courses must adhere to your guidelines, in the UL Academic handbook. So if there are any major changes to this handbook, you would think that the MISU Postgrad Rep should be at Executive level to discover these changes and be given the opportunity to report to the Postgrads of MIC? Even more importantly, I am not too sure if you can comprehend that UL are the governing authority of all Level 10 degrees in MIC? In layman’s terms UL are in full control of all PhD’s in Mary I. If these are not important reasons to maintain the MISU Postgraduate Rep on the Executive team then I do not know what else is.

    Besides all of these technicalities and inconvenience for the MIC student body to host a referendum in the first place, we should be strengthening the ties between MIC, UL and indeed LIT. Only on the 7th of May 2014 Mary Immaculate College (MIC), Limerick Institute of Technology (LIT) and the University of Limerick (UL) have committed to a new strategic alliance involving a detailed programme of enhanced collaboration, co-operation and development between the three higher education institutions.
    Further to this, the three colleges submitted draft ‘Performance Compacts’ to the HEA in January with the expectation that the Performance Compacts of all HEIs would be formally approved by the HEA shortly. It was agreed that the members of this Regional Cluster had adopted the name ‘Shannon Consortium Strategic Alliance’ and had forwarded a MoU to the HEA. Noted also that the MoU set out how Mary Immaculate College, Limerick Institute of Technology and the University of Limerick had committed to a detailed programme of enhanced collaboration, co-operation and development in accordance with HEA recommendations for the future higher education landscape.
    In summary, there will be a type of merged Graduate School between three institutions. I would envisage that now is the time to collaborate any issues or ideas from the Postgraduate students that will be affected by this merger. It is also the time not to take our eye of the ball with smaller insignificant issues and look at the bigger picture of events that concern the Postgraduate students.

    I endeavor that you will not perceive my email as a rant but as a letter of grave concern over the issues I have raised. I would hope that the year is not consumed by disagreements on wording of constitutions or coffee but that the Executive team with support from the UL SU will give 110% commitment of representation of the students.

    Remember in all students’ Unions, it is the students that are the supreme governing body, not the President, not the Executive Team, and not the PSU Council, you must never forget that.

    Le Buíochas,


  • Registered Users Posts: 48 Teslacuted


    I think Mary-I has been sidelined in this discussion so far, so I'm glad they have someone keeping tabs on this debacle.
    Keano84 wrote: »
    c) The draft ‘proposed’ constitution, lists this role at a lower standing of PSU council, and lists the position once in the document:
    “ARTICLE VIII: PSU COUNCIL 1. e. A Mary Immaculate College Representative.”
    It also fails to list the responsibilities or role of the position. I am aware that the UL PSU can change their constitution by quorum (50 persons). However your proposed draft eliminates the position of the Mary Immaculate Representative from the Executive Team, hence not complying with the MISU constitution.

    It's a good thing that Seamus sought out the opinions of all relevant stakeholders and worded his new constitution in a clear and reasonable manner while paying heed to all those it affects. I'm particularly pleased at how he followed best practices by forming an open-invitation committee to form a draft and then circulated it for the greatest exposure. [He wrote it himself, secretly, ended up with a half-arsed draft, and then tried to pass it on the sly. He was caught.].

    This is just more fuel for the fire.

    Meanwhile, in the fantasy world he lives in, he's circulated a letter to all postgraduates. An ability he has, that you'll recall, was shared by all other postgraduates until such time as he disliked the discussion, wherein he revoked the access of the students he claims to represent. Now only he can contact them, lest we disagree with any of his dictums.

    Here are some excerpts:
    Our office has instigated a request to have members of our Executive Committee and PSU Council to become eligible for recognition through the highly prestigious President’s Volunteer Awards.

    Ah, he's back to using the royal 'we', that way our minds can't single him out as a target of disdain. Note how he tells us of all the great prizes he'll be able to apply for.
    We have an increasing number of means of communication with our members (email, facebook, twitter, etc.) and we will continue to work to improve these platforms into the future.

    As a Union, we have to ensure that we facilitate the contribution of ideas and feedback from all our members. Our website has several mechanisms by which members can communicate with us, as well as through the use of emails. We have added an additional feature to our website which will allows us to substantiate that suggestions received are from our members, as these are the people who should be able to direct their union however they wish.
    Emphasis mine, because you couldn't write bull**** like that if you tried.

    Note that his 'additional feature' requires disclosing your ID before you may comment, a thoroughly considered and progressive decision that I somehow missed out on being consulted on. Note that boards is not present, despite it being the most significant venue for online discussion. It would be a shame if he were to direct people here, they might be exposed to dangerous information. Also note that all of the methods listed are under his control, and can therefore, as we have seen, be silenced, at his whims.
    I intend, during the course of the year, in affording students every opportunity to voice their opinions thus ensuring that union policy will become more student driven while still performing its primary role of advising and helping students to progress with their studies as efficiently and productively as possible.
    Emphasis mine. Apparently you can write bull**** like this. This man is on record for censuring and silencing any dissenting discussion. If he hadn't carefully worded this statement to be in the future, it would be an outright lie.
    Now that the election is over, and we all look forward to a new academic year I understand I will not please everybody all of the time
    This is a less than subtle attempt to solidify his election in our minds, such that we couldn't dream of the possibility of removing him. He wants us to consider him a fait accompli, while we ignore his misdeeds and look to a future of sunshine and flowers (and PVA awards).

    Let me refer you all to article 16: 'removal of an officer', in the current, valid PSU constitution. The same constitution that Seamus told us all was legally deficient, but was careful never to say how.
    Every directly elected Executive Officer or Council members shall be liable to be removed from office
    . The sooner the better, I feel.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 114 ✭✭goldencrisp62


    right lads, is there any means of reproach with regards getting this guy out of office?

    Hopefully the lads with a stake in the SU and PSU like Ginge etc will figure out a work around to get rid of this parasite


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,652 ✭✭✭Chimaera


    At this point, it looks like the earliest opportunity that will allow for Noonan to be removed in a legally robust fashion will be September. I believe there are a number of people planning to do so when the opportunity presents itself.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    If anyone who is unaware of my tenure as ULSU President wishes to see the accusations levelled at me during a period of consultation on a new constitution which began BEFORE my term and was ratified AFTER it, then looks at this...

    I always knew I was acting democratically despite my insistence on certain issues making it LOOK like I wasn't, however Houdini couldn't have pulled this off.

    The PSU has a constitution. The president may interpret it, they may not disregard it!

    I engaged in a lot of interpretation in the name of progress, this is plain disrespect.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭Popoutman


    I'd like to see him out.

    He's unresponsive to my direct emails as well as ignoring all of the other people's attempts to enter discussion.

    Not fit for purpose - if he was something I bought in a shop I'd have returned him for my money back at this stage.

    Like everything, one would hope that a person new to a position would start as they mean to continue, and if this is the case with Seamus it's time to remove him before he manages to do any real damage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 38 Evergreen23


    ninty9er wrote: »
    If anyone who is unaware of my tenure as ULSU President wishes to see the accusations levelled at me during a period of consultation on a new constitution which began BEFORE my term and was ratified AFTER it, then looks at this...

    I always knew I was acting democratically despite my insistence on certain issues making it LOOK like I wasn't, however Houdini couldn't have pulled this off.

    The PSU has a constitution. The president may interpret it, they may not disregard it!

    I engaged in a lot of interpretation in the name of progress, this is plain disrespect.

    What term were you President or would you like to share your name?


  • Registered Users Posts: 38 Evergreen23


    right lads, is there any means of reproach with regards getting this guy out of office?

    Hopefully the lads with a stake in the SU and PSU like Ginge etc will figure out a work around to get rid of this parasite

    Do the 'lads' in SU have any say with the PSU?

    Guy is only new to the office so give him a chance!


  • Registered Users Posts: 38 Evergreen23


    "7. The reason for using WordPress is because it will allow for any authorised member of the union to easily update the information contained on the website. Unfortunately one would have to be very computer savvy to update the existing website that was built with the assistance of a web designer, and for that reason proves very difficult to edit/update. We will be migrating the WordPress site to the ulpsu.ie domain in the very near future, and will retain the existing website on ulpsu.ie under a subdomain."

    So, it's grand to waste PSU funds when it suits? Surely it would be possible to figure out how to use the previous site since so much effort was put in to making it.

    Agree 100%!!!

    I raised this issue at the beginning of April last and Gingeyoung replied:

    "The website I can tell you is in the works as we speak".
    "There will be a website in place before the end of the summer"

    I just checked and the website is still under construction, so Gingeyoung was wrong.

    The previous President Leanne Lilly included in her manifesto that she would create a new website and had a year to do this. Whole thing is a shambles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,334 ✭✭✭reunion


    The previous President Leanne Lilly included in her manifesto that she would create a new website and had a year to do this. Whole thing is a shambles.


    The website was launched in June I believe, it went through a year of testing and changes before being implemented. It was quite good (though a year is a long time until it was created) and had information. It was taken down within a month by the current PSU president and a new website was rushed (which is his current style), isn't complete and lacks basic information (but the president page on the about us section is complete).

    Derek Daly is Ninety9er, he was ULSU president from 2010-2011 and Welfare Officer from 2008-2010 - http://www.ulsu.ie/about/about-the-union/int/previousofficers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,652 ✭✭✭Chimaera


    Do the 'lads' in SU have any say with the PSU?

    Guy is only new to the office so give him a chance!

    He's been given many chances and ignored them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 857 ✭✭✭Polar Ice


    What term were you President or would you like to share your name?

    His name is in his profile... and there's a listing of past SU sabbats here: http://www.ulsu.ie/about/about-the-union/int/previousofficers


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