24-hour lane on the stretch of N11 from Foxrock Church to Loughlinstown (?)

breadmonkey · 22-02-2008 12:21am #1

I'm ont quite sure how far the bus lane runs for but why in the name of God is it 24 hour?!

GerardKeating · 22-02-2008 12:24am

breadmonkey wrote: »

I'm ont quite sure how far the bus lane runs for but why in the name of God is it 24 hour?!

Bus lanes which are built in former hard scholders are always 24 hour.

Ham'nd'egger · 22-02-2008 1:03am

breadmonkey wrote: »

I'm ont quite sure how far the bus lane runs for but why in the name of God is it 24 hour?!

Many of the bus lanes approaching the M50 are 24-7, it ensures a clear lane for public transport and emergency services if need be. While there isn't bus services at night, there can be times of severe traffic congestion, even late at night.

Wishbone Ash · 22-02-2008 1:05am

breadmonkey wrote: »

I'm ont quite sure how far the bus lane runs for but why in the name of God is it 24 hour?!

What difference does it make if it's 12 or 24 hour?

breadmonkey · 22-02-2008 1:35am

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

What difference does it make if it's 12 or 24 hour?

I don't understand. Traffic usually breaks around 7 on the N11 (town to foxrock) when the bus lane opens. I just thought the benefits would be similar here.

Bus lanes which are built in former hard scholders are always 24 hour

Why?

breadmonkey · 22-02-2008 1:38am

Hamndegger wrote: »

Many of the bus lanes approaching the M50 are 24-7, it ensures a clear lane for public transport and emergency services if need be. While there isn't bus services at night, there can be times of severe traffic congestion, even late at night.

Sorry missed this first time around.

John R · 22-02-2008 2:02am

This topic is brought up here every few months and so far no one has been able to explain why they need access to bus lanes in the extremely low traffic times that regular bus services don't run (1am-6am).

Regarding the N11 specifically, while all the bus lanes installed in the last few years are 24/7 the older sections (Donnybrook to Foxrock) are 7-7 and a small number of car users abuse this to skip traffic in the early evenings when there is still significant traffic on this section. The better question is why the older and more heavily used sections haven't been changed to 24/7 to match the rest.

mackerski · 22-02-2008 2:27am

John R wrote: »

a small number of car users abuse this to skip traffic in the early evenings when there is still significant traffic on this section. The better question is why the older and more heavily used sections haven't been changed to 24/7 to match the rest.

When did keeping left change from legal obligation to abuse?

breadmonkey · 22-02-2008 3:04am

I presume he's referring to people using the bus lanes before 7.

Cookie_Monster · 22-02-2008 6:00pm

GerardKeating wrote: »

Bus lanes which are built in former hard scholders are always 24 hour.

Not true, from Foxrock INTO town was built on hard shoulder also and are only 12 hour.

BrianD · 22-02-2008 7:03pm

It makes absolutely no difference if the bus lane is 24 hours when it is built on a former hard shoulder. Beforehand it couldn't be used at any time of the day.

mackerski · 23-02-2008 3:41am

BrianD wrote: »

It makes absolutely no difference if the bus lane is 24 hours when it is built on a former hard shoulder. Beforehand it couldn't be used at any time of the day.

Of course it makes a difference. Replace HS with part time bus lane and you get a lane that can be used out of hours by cars.

Unless you expect drivers to check every bus lane for evidence of burnt off HS markings just in case.

Carawaystick · 23-02-2008 2:25pm

I thought it's to do with the speed limit on the road - south of Foxrock it's 80 so 24hr buslane; north of Foxrock it's 60 so 12 hour buslane.

breadmonkey · 23-02-2008 7:56pm

BrianD wrote: »

It makes absolutely no difference if the bus lane is 24 hours when it is built on a former hard shoulder. Beforehand it couldn't be used at any time of the day.

Are you serious? Obviously it does make a difference because...

mackerski wrote: »

Replace HS with part time bus lane and you get a lane that can be used out of hours by cars.

Carawaystick wrote: »

I thought it's to do with the speed limit on the road - south of Foxrock it's 80 so 24hr buslane; north of Foxrock it's 60 so 12 hour buslane.

Why?

John R · 23-02-2008 8:16pm

breadmonkey wrote: »

Are you serious? Obviously it does make a difference because...

And again we have someone wanting the use of bus lanes outside peak times without any explanation as to why it is necessary. Are 2 lanes really not enough on the N11?

If there is congestion outside the posted times then they should still be reserved for buses to cut through the congestion and if there is no congestion then there is no need for cars to have a third lane to use.

breadmonkey · 24-02-2008 5:25pm

more lanes = more capacity = faster travel time. It's as simple as that really and you are aware of this. Why not try and answer my initial question instead of needling me with this rubbish?

It's not that there's a huge amount of congestion at these times, it's rather that I like the ability to drive unimpeded past the queues of morons in the middle lane.

BrianD · 24-02-2008 9:25pm

breadmonkey wrote: »

more lanes = more capacity = faster travel time. It's as simple as that really and you are aware of this. Why not try and answer my initial question instead of needling me with this rubbish?

It's not that there's a huge amount of congestion at these times, it's rather that I like the ability to drive unimpeded past the queues of morons in the middle lane.

Because, to be frank, you are talking rubbish!

Here's the facts ...

There has been no change to the status quo for private motorists on this stretch or road. What was an unusable hard shoulder is now an usable bus lane.

Buses now have a 24 hour dedicated bus lane even if it be relatively unused in the post midnight to 6am time of day. Two lanes will adequately carry all private traffic. I might point out that you should not be using any lane to undertake "morons' as you call them. This is against the law.

Finally, the indisputable fact - as discussed elsewhere on this board - is that the overall capacity of the N11 corridor has increased since the introduction of 12 hour and 24 hour bus lanes. What has happened on the Foxrock to Loughlinstown stretch is that an extra traffic lane has been added to the route so you are correct: more lanes = more capacity = faster travel. Has the penny dropped yet?

Trust your questions are now answered.

breadmonkey · 25-02-2008 1:01am

There has been no change to the status quo for private motorists on this stretch or road. What was an unusable hard shoulder is now an usable bus lane.

Right so what you're saying is let's just keep it the same despite the fact that there's a perfectly usable lane wasted on an infrequent bus service? Why not use it to improve on the existing situation?

I might point out that you should not be using any lane to undertake "morons' as you call them. This is against the law.

Of course. I simply drive in the left hand lane as I'm supposed to. That's not against the law is it? No, in fact quite the contrary.

Finally, the indisputable fact - as discussed elsewhere on this board - is that the overall capacity of the N11 corridor has increased since the introduction of 12 hour and 24 hour bus lanes. What has happened on the Foxrock to Loughlinstown stretch is that an extra traffic lane has been added to the route so you are correct: more lanes = more capacity = faster travel. Has the penny dropped yet?

So extra traffic lane + unused bus lane < extra traffic lane? Did you actually think about any of this before you wrote it?

Trust your questions are now answered.

No, you're inane comments are derailing my thread. I want to know why the bus lane is a dedicated 24 hour one, not to discuss my wish not to have it so.

Stark · 25-02-2008 1:12am

breadmonkey wrote: »

Right so what you're saying is let's just keep it the same despite the fact that there's a perfectly usable lane wasted on an infrequent bus service? Why not use it to improve on the existing situation?

There are quite a lot of buses that use that lane even after 7PM. By giving them a dedicated lane, you're encouraging more people to leave their cars at home and get the bus. Afaik, bus usage has increased quite a bit on that route over the last few years. Taking that lane away from those people and giving it back to private car traffic isn't a sound long term traffic plan.

The current situation seems to work well. The buses run quickly and congestion on the other two lanes is relatively light compared to other routes in Dublin.

breadmonkey · 25-02-2008 1:33am

Stark wrote: »

There are quite a lot of buses that use that lane even after 7PM. By giving them a dedicated lane, you're encouraging more people to leave their cars at home and get the bus. Afaik, bus usage has increased quite a bit on that route over the last few years. Taking that lane away from those people and giving it back to private car traffic isn't a sound long term traffic plan.

Are there really a lot of buses running that route? I'll have a check in my Street Guide but I really don't think there are. Though I'm sure you're right that bus usage has increased, especially with the introduction of the 145.

I'm not talking about taking the lane away from the buses except after 7! I'm all for encouraging public transport but we all know that'll take more than a bus lane. Anyway, that's another thread.

Ham'nd'egger · 25-02-2008 2:00am

breadmonkey wrote: »

Are there really a lot of buses running that route? I'll have a check in my Street Guide but I really don't think there are. Though I'm sure you're right that bus usage has increased, especially with the introduction of the 145.

I'm not talking about taking the lane away from the buses except after 7! I'm all for encouraging public transport but we all know that'll take more than a bus lane. Anyway, that's another thread.

Breadmonkey, I notice that you didn't really take my point into account. To put it into a very real perspective, June last, a footbridge replacement on the N 11 forced the Saturday night closure of it and the M 11. While this closure was well signalled in the media, there was dire tailbacks as a result. If on this night, any bus or ambulance needed to reach (For arguments sake, Loughlinstown hospital, it being handy), it didn't have a prayer were it not for the bus lane. One friend of mine was working that night in Wexford; he spent over an hour on the road around here; I am sure that you will agree that we allow access to a major road at it's arteries as these 24-7 lanes allow.

breadmonkey · 25-02-2008 2:24am

Hamndegger wrote: »

Breadmonkey, I notice that you didn't really take my point into account. To put it into a very real perspective, June last, a footbridge replacement on the N 11 forced the Saturday night closure of it and the M 11. While this closure was well signalled in the media, there was dire tailbacks as a result. If on this night, any bus or ambulance needed to reach (For arguments sake, Loughlinstown hospital, it being handy), it didn't have a prayer were it not for the bus lane. One friend of mine was working that night in Wexford; he spent over an hour on the road around here; I am sure that you will agree that we allow access to a major road at it's arteries as these 24-7 lanes allow.

Sorry, I got bogged down in all the superfluous rubbish.

I do take your point but I don't think the comparison you make above is valid. The closure of an entire road is obviously going to cause chaos compared to a "congested" 3 lane dual carriageway. They aren;t close.

Plus, everyone who's getting on my back about this is using the argument that there's no congestion to speak of so surely then no ambulance will be impeded?

So anyway, is emergency service access the definitive answer?

mickoneill30 · 25-02-2008 10:01am

No hard shoulder is the definitive answer. Well it seems to be if you actually read the posts above.

There are two options.

1: Have a hard shoulder and a normal lane. Nobody complains.
2: Open up the hard shoulder to public transport and still have the normal lane. People complain. Its a really "glass is half empty" kind of complaint that is common these days.

Taxis can use bus lanes too so at the times the buses aren't running that's at least 10% of traffic taken out of your way Breadmonkey.

breadmonkey · 25-02-2008 10:50am

No hard shoulder is the definitive answer. Well it seems to be if you actually read the posts above.

No hard shoulder what? There was talk of hard shoulder and emergency service access. So it seems to be eh? Wow, that's pretty definititive alright.

There are two options.

1: Have a hard shoulder and a normal lane. Nobody complains.
2: Open up the hard shoulder to public transport and still have the normal lane. People complain. Its a really "glass is half empty" kind of complaint that is common these days.

I have a great idea. Let's call it "Option 3". What happens is you have a bus lane in operation 7:00 - 19:00 and then you open it up to all traffic thereafter. And how exactly is this a "glass is half empty complaint"? Does that actually mean anything or were you just trying to sound intelligent? All I'm trying to do is find out why the bus is 24 hour. I'm taking an objective view and wondering why what seems an obvious improvement to me is not in operation.

Taxis can use bus lanes too so at the times the buses aren't running that's at least 10% of traffic taken out of your way Breadmonkey.

10%. Sure why not.

mickoneill30 · 25-02-2008 10:56am

breadmonkey wrote: »

No hard shoulder what? There was talk of hard shoulder and emergency service access. So it seems to be eh? Wow, that's pretty definititive alright.

To explain the glass half empty comment (as it seems to have gone over your head).

Glass half full - Great they opened up the hard shoulder to public transport. That means more room for me on the normal lane.
Glass half empty - They only opened up the hard shoulder to public transport. I want more room dammit.
I wasnt' trying to sound intelligent. Obviously though it was too complicated for some.

As to the rest of your post it's been answered before.

For the 10% I posted for the taxis number. That is a number I took off the top of my head for the times that buses wouldn't be around (say between 11pm - 7am). I thought it was low. If you know better then feel free to correct me (with facts, not meandering posts).

John R · 25-02-2008 12:36pm

breadmonkey wrote: »

more lanes = more capacity = faster travel time. It's as simple as that really and you are aware of this. Why not try and answer my initial question instead of needling me with this rubbish?

It's not that there's a huge amount of congestion at these times, it's rather that I like the ability to drive unimpeded past the queues of morons in the middle lane.

That is what the outside lane is for, overtaking on the left is still illegal.

Again, if there is enough traffic to hold you up then there is good reason for the bus lane to still be in operation, unless of course if what you really want is to be able to pass a handful of cars at high speed by using the bus lane.

Oh and I did answer your original question, the original N11 lanes were 7-7 as was the policy when they were commissioned, now the policy is for lanes that are not intended for general traffic to be 24/7

maxheadroom · 25-02-2008 1:30pm

Its actually very simple. They have decided that this lane is to give public transport priority in times of traffic congestion.

If there is traffic congestion after 7pm, then it makes sense for the bus lane hours to extend beyond 7.

If there is no congestion after 7pm, then it makes no difference if the bus lane is available for general use, as the available road capacity is adequate for general traffic.

breadmonkey · 25-02-2008 2:10pm

How intensely frustrating.

To explain the glass half empty comment (as it seems to have gone over your head).

Glass half full - Great they opened up the hard shoulder to public transport. That means more room for me on the normal lane.
Glass half empty - They only opened up the hard shoulder to public transport. I want more room dammit.

And now for the clincher - "Great they opened the hard shoulder to public transport 7:00 - 19:00 and then I can use it after that. Now not only do I get more room on the normal lane but I also get even more room after 19:00, making my travel time even less!" Is that really that hard to understand? This isn't a case of glass being half full or half empty, it's bout being at the correct level. Do you understand that? Please for the love of God don't reiterate yourself.

For the 10% I posted for the taxis number. That is a number I took off the top of my head for the times that buses wouldn't be around (say between 11pm - 7am). I thought it was low. If you know better then feel free to correct me (with facts, not meandering posts).

I don't know better. That's why I wouldn't pull numbers out of my head and use them to argue a point.

John R wrote: »

Oh and I did answer your original question, the original N11 lanes were 7-7 as was the policy when they were commissioned, now the policy is for lanes that are not intended for general traffic to be 24/7

OK but WHY?

maxheadroom wrote: »

Its actually very simple. They have decided that this lane is to give public transport priority in times of traffic congestion.

If there is traffic congestion after 7pm, then it makes sense for the bus lane hours to extend beyond 7.

If there is no congestion after 7pm, then it makes no difference if the bus lane is available for general use, as the available road capacity is adequate for general traffic.

Adequate yes but could be improved further. That's my point.

L1011 · 25-02-2008 2:22pm

John R wrote: »

That is what the outside lane is for, overtaking on the left is still illegal.

I thought it was specifically legal *IF* the right hand lane is going slower? I've definately undertaken a garda car due to the outside lane of the N4 suddenly getting glacial (while I was in the inside anyway)...

BrianD · 25-02-2008 2:29pm

breadmonkey wrote: »

How intensely frustrating.

And now for the clincher - "Great they opened the hard shoulder to public transport 7:00 - 19:00 and then I can use it after that. Now not only do I get more room on the normal lane but I also get even more room after 19:00, making my travel time even less!" Is that really that hard to understand? This isn't a case of glass being half full or half empty, it's bout being at the correct level. Do you understand that? Please for the love of God don't reiterate yourself.

I don't know better. That's why I wouldn't pull numbers out of my head and use them to argue a point.

OK but WHY?

Adequate yes but could be improved further. That's my point.

i think this thread should be closed. Bread monkey you seem unwilling to accept the facts of the matter and clinging to the old "why is there a 24 hour bus lane when Dublin Bus don't run 24 hours" malarkey.

The fact of the matter is that a new traffic lane has been opened when there wasn't one before. MORE LANES MORE CAPACITY FASTER TRAVEL TIMES

This creates a dedicated route 24 hours for high capacity vehicles.

it takes these high capacity vehicles out of the existing two lanes of the route.

The existing two lanes of traffic are more than adequate to carry traffic post 19:00. There would be no improvement to your journey times

You are looiking for more MORE LANES MORE CAPACITY and FASTER TRAVEL TIMES. This is achieved for all N11 users by the addition of this 24 hour lane. QED.

breadmonkey · 25-02-2008 2:31pm

MYOB wrote: »

I thought it was specifically legal *IF* the right hand lane is going slower? I've definately undertaken a garda car due to the outside lane of the N4 suddenly getting glacial (while I was in the inside anyway)...

I thought this too. Just had a quick look at the Rules Of The Road and found this:

You may overtake on the left when
1)You want to go straight ahead when the driver in front of you has moved
out and signalled that they intend to turn right.
2)You have signalled that you intend to turn left.
3)Traffic in both lanes is moving slowly and traffic in the left-hand lane is
moving more quickly than the traffic in the right-hand lane.

I don't know if this applies to 3 lane carriageways but I'd rather if another thread was started to discuss this.

24-hour lane on the stretch of N11 from Foxrock Church to Loughlinstown (?)

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