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RPA defends capacity of proposed metro trams
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Here, to the rescue...
I'm confident Metro North has MORE THAN ENOUGH capacity to deal with the increases in population density that will inevitably occur along its corridor.
Comparing it with the metro of a densified city like Barcelona, which has 6 car metros every 2-3 minutes in the rush hour, I don't see why if Barcelona's metro is rarely overcrowded, in a city with a population density many times higher than Dublin, that the Dublin metro could be overcrowded with 90 metre trains every 90 seconds, as it possible with the system the RPA has planned. MetroNorth is the best system for Dublin's population profile and projected growth patterns. In fact the more realistic accusation is that it is overcapacity, not undercapacity.
Dublin isn't a world city, it's a glorified town. Its tallest building, Liberty Hall, would look like a cottage in Manhattan. Most Dubliners live in semi detached or terraced houses with gardens. Yes, the city is changing, new styles of living are being realised and new transport systems are being buildt But to talk of building a New York or London style subway system for a city like Dublin just doesn't stand up to any proper analysis.
MetroNorth is a terrific transport system for Dublin and just wait and see, all the moaning and griping that's taking place will all be forgotten the day after it opens and all the whingers on this forum will end up coming on and demanding extensions to MetroNorth left right and centre, just like they did with luas. Remember?
With all due respect Metrobest, people are fully justified to have reservations in relation to Metro north. Whats promised and whats delivered may well be very different. As a bone fide "whinger" on this board, I have first hand experience of how we get it wrong time after time in Ireland. While I continuously read about how great metro north will be with its 90 metre units at 90 sec headways, I just can't help myself thinking about the Luas lines that we built. 30m units on the red line. Upgraded to 40m after the RPA stated publically it wasn't necessary. A feeder service for Heuston - Connolly...still not fully implemented, despite the build cost of a bay at Heuston and rediculous over crowding between two major transport hubs. I remember Ger Hannon from the RPA telling me that the 30m trams on the red line were adequate at 2 min frequencies. It never happened. The success of Luas has been judged on the basis of serious overcrowding. That is not a way to judge the success of a transport system.
Finally, this particular whinger has not and will not call for extensions to the Luas, because I think its a woefully inadequate system for what we expect it to do. Metro north may be different. But that depends on keeping design promises and actually building it in the first place. In Ireland the best way to monitor projects is on the basis of history rather than engineering and operational aspirations.0 -
I'm confident Metro North has MORE THAN ENOUGH capacity to deal with the increases in population density that will inevitably occur along its corridor.
Comparing it with the metro of a densified city like Barcelona, which has 6 car metros every 2-3 minutes in the rush hour, I don't see why if Barcelona's metro is rarely overcrowded, in a city with a population density many times higher than Dublin, that the Dublin metro could be overcrowded with 90 metre trains every 90 seconds, as it possible with the system the RPA has planned. MetroNorth is the best system for Dublin's population profile and projected growth patterns. In fact the more realistic accusation is that it is overcapacity, not undercapacity.
Agree 100%0 -
DWCommuter wrote: »With all due respect Metrobest, people are fully justified to have reservations in relation to Metro north. Whats promised and whats delivered may well be very different. As a bone fide "whinger" on this board, I have first hand experience of how we get it wrong time after time in Ireland. While I continuously read about how great metro north will be with its 90 metre units at 90 sec headways, I just can't help myself thinking about the Luas lines that we built. 30m units on the red line. Upgraded to 40m after the RPA stated publically it wasn't necessary. A feeder service for Heuston - Connolly...still not fully implemented, despite the build cost of a bay at Heuston and rediculous over crowding between two major transport hubs. I remember Ger Hannon from the RPA telling me that the 30m trams on the red line were adequate at 2 min frequencies. It never happened. The success of Luas has been judged on the basis of serious overcrowding. That is not a way to judge the success of a transport system.
Finally, this particular whinger has not and will not call for extensions to the Luas, because I think its a woefully inadequate system for what we expect it to do. Metro north may be different. But that depends on keeping design promises and actually building it in the first place. In Ireland the best way to monitor projects is on the basis of history rather than engineering and operational aspirations.
Yes. All very rational.
But the bottom line is the same stuck record -the glass is half empty, brethren.....the END OF THE WORLD IS UPON US.........0 -
DWCommuter wrote: »With all due respect Metrobest, people are fully justified to have reservations in relation to Metro north. Whats promised and whats delivered may well be very different. As a bone fide "whinger" on this board, I have first hand experience of how we get it wrong time after time in Ireland. While I continuously read about how great metro north will be with its 90 metre units at 90 sec headways, I just can't help myself thinking about the Luas lines that we built. 30m units on the red line. Upgraded to 40m after the RPA stated publically it wasn't necessary. A feeder service for Heuston - Connolly...still not fully implemented, despite the build cost of a bay at Heuston and rediculous over crowding between two major transport hubs. I remember Ger Hannon from the RPA telling me that the 30m trams on the red line were adequate at 2 min frequencies. It never happened. The success of Luas has been judged on the basis of serious overcrowding. That is not a way to judge the success of a transport system.
Finally, this particular whinger has not and will not call for extensions to the Luas, because I think its a woefully inadequate system for what we expect it to do. Metro north may be different. But that depends on keeping design promises and actually building it in the first place. In Ireland the best way to monitor projects is on the basis of history rather than engineering and operational aspirations.
Actually, the real problem in Dublin is not about the undercapacity of the luas lines, it's about the lack of a proper integrated mass transit system in the first place.
Red line luases are ridiculously overcrowded btw Heuston and Connolly because there is no sufficient mass transit system to take passengers from the national intercity train station into the heart of the city centre. An interconnector will solve this problem. Then the Red line luas from Heuston-Connolly will be free of overcrowding. Problem solved - in 2015.
The Green line is also overcrowded, (although it can increase capacity through higher freq and upgrades to metro if neccessary) reason being that it's the only high frequency transit line in Dublin and it has beaten all projections of passenger numbers. But MetroNorth has much higher extra capacity built into it, capacity on a par with all cities of similar size to Dublin, such as Cologne, Oporto, Amsterdam, Valencia, Stockholm, etc etc.
Of all these cities it's probable Dublin has the lowest population density, therefore the chances of MetroNorth every being truly overcrowded in the sense that the luas red line is, are slim.0 -
I would just like to make a couple of points
1. On a general basis Ireland comes from an Anglo Saxon viewpoint with regard to transport infrastructure - preference for roads, large expenditures on public transport are always prefaced with seemingly endless debate as to whether we actually need it/cost/people whinging (defo an Irish Past time all in itself)
2. It is standard practice in Europe to build in excess capacity on metro/tram lines in order to cater for unforeseen circumstances in the future
3. Transport 21 is a very poor strategic document. This is really the case when one looks at 'Platform for Change' upon which T21 is supposed to be based
4. Platform for Change envisaged a Metro line running from Swords to Bray - we will get a metro from swords to stephen's green thereby worsening congestion on the LUAS GREEN line
5. We are building an extension from Sandyford onto Cherrywood even though everybody acknowledges this will have to be upgraded to Metro ASAP!
6. According to the RPA, the proposed Metro West is actually not a Metro but an at grade Luas (which can be upgraded in the future)
7. As indicated in Platform for Change (based on extensive traffic modelling) there was (in 2001) a need for:
a. A Swords/Bray metro line
b. An orbital metro line from close to the airport to Tallaght
c. A metro line from Tallaght to Stephens Green via Kimmage and Harolds Cross
Under T21 we are making a mess of a. and b. and totally ignoring c.
8. Based on settlement patterns since 2001 it is clear that the other proposed luas lines (primarily to Lucan and the city centre link up) are inadequate and could accomodate metro capacities.
9. The key is to have a couple of Metro lines (one north/south, a second east/west) with a variety of luas lines feeding off them. A good example here is Brussels which has 2 metro lines interspersed with a variety of tram lines and suburban rail lines.
Overall, the debate on metro has become redundant - we need METRO and not just METRO NORTH. Metro lines permit planners to grant higher residential densities and are our only hope of trying to consolidate settlement patterns in Dublin. But, the RPA seems to be run by idiots. Congestion on the LUAS (S) is here to stay0 -
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You've made some interesting points.
1. Agree
2. MetroNorth has been designed with excess capacity built into it. The facts are clear on this point.
3. Platform for Change was not a realistic document. It was a fantasy "unlimited budget" document. And in relation to the green line it spoke of the density on this line justifying capacity as it "approaches the canal". In actual fact, PFC is what the red and green luas densities were planned on.
4. PFC envisaged a fantasy metro line from Swords to Bray yet it admitted that the population densities in Dublin did not warranty metro capacity. That is the dichotomy Dublin faces - the need for high capacity transport yet a settlement pattern that actively discourages it.
5. Indeed.
6 Again MetroWest comes from PFC. Running through areas of even lower population density than the Green line or Red line on a route on which the car will always have a natural monopoly. (6 lane M50 versus a half empty tram)
7. c. A metro line from Tallaght to Stephens Green via Kimmage and Harolds Cross is an idea I support. What tends to happen in cities is that metro creates and stimulates demand for more metro, so I expect this line to be given the green light after 2012.
8. I haven't seen any data that convinces that lucan has the population density to justify metropolitan transport. Lucan is deeply suburban.
9. Agree.
10. I don't think idiots run the RPA. I think they're doing a good job with MetroNorth in the face of a hostile anti-metro campaign from the witless Frank McDonald.0 -
Hey
I basically agree with all of the above!
What did Frank McDonald say about Metro North?0
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