Level crossings

subway · 22-02-2008 5:23pm #1

i live in dublin 13 and cannot drive from baldoyle to sutton or the coast without crossing the train tracks at sutton or moyclare (you may know the area or not)
i find that i cannot seem to go make this journey without being stuck at a level crossing.

yesterday mornign at around 6.50 am i was stuck for about 10 minutes as 2 trains needed to pass throught the level crossing.

does anyone know why these 3 level crossings need such an elongated period of "downtime" perhaps the 3 are linked?

i find it one of the most frustrating experiences when i know the dart is going to pass by at 15km or less anyway (approiaching / exiting a station).

why can they not use a luas style setup (there is no heavy freight on the sutton to howth line) or shorter downtimes?

markpb · 22-02-2008 6:10pm

There's a good reason for the different types of crossings. If a Luas crashes into you (or more likely, the other way round), you'll have a bit of a headache and your car will need a new paint job. If a Dart crashes into you, you won't be worrying about anything for a very long time, possibly ever.

The reason for the long delay before a train comes through is to allow for the train to be stopped if something happens like a car breaking down on the crossing or a pedestrian slipping and falling. I would guess it's triggered at a set distance from the crossing so it needs to accommodate both the slowest and fastest trains on the track.

If it makes you feel better, the priority given to the Dart crossings is still biased in favour of the road crossing. If they were given equal footings, the Dart carrying over 1,200 people would get more time to cross. As it is, Dart trains have to slow down to make sure the barriers aren't down for too long or too often.

subway · 22-02-2008 6:33pm

markpb wrote: »

There's a good reason for the different types of crossings. If a Luas crashes into you (or more likely, the other way round), you'll have a bit of a headache and your car will need a new paint job. If a Dart crashes into you, you won't be worrying about anything for a very long time, possibly ever.

how does the level crossing being down for 10 minutes before a dart gets there prevent this?
cars hit into the luas becuase of the lack of barriers, not the time given to the car / luas to stop

The reason for the long delay before a train comes through is to allow for the train to be stopped if something happens like a car breaking down on the crossing or a pedestrian slipping and falling

.

that makes no sense, surely the level crossing being up or down has no relevance on a trains ability to stop?

I would guess it's triggered at a set distance from the crossing so it needs to accommodate both the slowest and fastest trains on the track.

if thats in relation to stopping distance, there are only darts on this line, and see my point above about level crossings and their bearing on a trains ability to stop

If it makes you feel better, the priority given to the Dart crossings is still biased in favour of the road crossing. If they were given equal footings, the Dart carrying over 1,200 people would get more time to cross. As it is, Dart trains have to slow down to make sure the barriers aren't down for too long or too often

that may be so, but if you have ever tried to get in or out of sutton dart station between 5 and 7 you would see the absolute mess that is caused by the level crossing being down for around 30 minutes per hour.
the gates at sutton also stay down longer per train than those at merrion for example (open to correction on this) but it certainly feels that way

markpb · 22-02-2008 6:38pm

subway wrote: »

how does the level crossing being down for 10 minutes before a dart gets there prevent this?

The difference in crossings is down to the difference in trains. Light rail - low risk - simple crossings. Heavy rail - high risk - proper crossings. Dart is most definitely heavy rail so it gets the full treatment.

cars hit into the luas becuase of the lack of barriers, not the time given to the car / luas to stop

Cars hit the luas because their drivers are ignorant idiots who run red/amber lights and/or block yellow boxes.

that makes no sense, surely the level crossing being up or down has no relevance on a trains ability to stop?

If the train is travelling at speed (which the Luas doesn't, but the Dart does), closing the junction in the plenty of time allows someone to spot a problem, report it to the station master or Irish Rail and have that news communicated to the driver in time to stop the train. A heavy-rail train carrying over a thousand people has a lot of momentum. The don't stop on a penny

that may be so, but if you have ever tried to get in or out of sutton dart station between 5 and 7 you would see the absolute mess that is caused by the level crossing being down for around 30 minutes per hour. the gates at sutton also stay down longer per train than those at merrion for example (open to correction on this) but it certainly feels that way

It's crap because the system was designed as a kludge to an existing IC system. If it was built properly it would be physically segregated. The current system is bad for drivers and bad for Dart passengers but it's safe. Ultimately, safety tops convenience.

subway · 22-02-2008 6:45pm

The difference in crossings is down to the difference in trains. Light rail - low risk - simple crossings. Heavy rail - high risk - proper crossings. Dart is most definitely heavy rail so it gets the full treatment.Cars hit the luas because their drivers are ignorant idiots who run red/amber lights and/or block yellow boxes.

yes, but drivers are not hitting into darts because the gate is in the way, not because the light is red for longer.
i ahve no isse with the gate, it is the length of time it is down for.

If the train is travelling at speed (which the Luas doesn't, but the Dart does), closing the junction in the plenty of time allows someone to spot a problem, report it to the station master or Irish Rail and have that news communicated to the driver in time to stop the train. A heavy-rail train carrying over a thousand people has a lot of momentum. The don't stop on a penny

are you familiar with the section of line i am talking about?
it goes -
level crossing
50 metres of track
station
level crossing
200 metre of track
level crossing
500 metres of track
station

the trains generally travelly fairly slowly around this section of line and its also a clear line of sight between all 3 gates and about 250 metres of the way to bayside.

It's crap because the system was designed as a kludge to an existing IC system. If it was built properly it would be physically segregated. The current system is bad for drivers and bad for Dart passengers but it's safe. Ultimately, safety tops convenience

thats the real answer, so does anyone know what are the chances of it ever being upgraded?

trellheim · 22-02-2008 8:22pm

the trains generally travelly fairly slowly around this section of line

do you want the signalling to worry about the worst case or the best case ?

Prof_V · 22-02-2008 8:27pm

Regarding how they work: these crossings are full-barrier, and that type of crossing has to be proved clear of traffic and pedestrians before the train can be allowed onto them (because there's no escape route, unlike half barriers that block only the way onto, not off, the crossing). During the time it takes to lower the barriers and check the crossing via CCTV, the train has to be kept where it can be stopped before reaching the crossing (taking account of braking distance, where the signals are, etc.). This affects the time a train will take to reach the crossing. Line of sight doesn't come into it because heavy rail , except maybe for a few very low-speed freight lines, runs on signals, not line of sight. The difference is more about stopping distances than weight per se.

Half-barrier crossings work entirely automatically; the train triggers the closing sequence when it passes a designated point (which is determined by the need to give adequate warning to traffic, not to stop the train; there's normally no interaction with the railway signals). The delay is less, but the crossing isn't quite as safe (potential to zigzag, no guarantee that the crossing will be clear ahead of a train). As far as I know, they're frowned upon in urban areas (pedestrians/cyclists going round the gates) and at higher train speeds, and I don't think there have been any new ones in Ireland, even in rural areas, for years. CIÉ proposed half-barrier crossings on what's now the DART line in the seventies, and the then Corpo turned them down on safety grounds, probably not without reason- imagine the trucks that regularly hit the barriers at Merrion Gates trying to zigzag round half barriers.

As for grade separation: the Howth line probably isn't going to be a priority, given that train speeds are low, the extra rail capacity you'd get from closing crossings wouldn't be needed there and, as in any urban location, there's considerable cost involved, plus hassle from people living next to crossings. Even with the crossings in Dublin 4, where the extra rail capacity would be useful, there seem to be no plans, probably because there isn't a solution that's acceptable to the locals. There is an aspiration to get rid of the crossings on the Maynooth line, but it's proving difficult.

See also http://www.rsc.ie/uploads/rsc/section5.pdf for the official guidance on crossings.

Stark · 23-02-2008 1:26am

subway wrote:

yes, but drivers are not hitting into darts because the gate is in the way, not because the light is red for longer.
i ahve no isse with the gate, it is the length of time it is down for.

Many of the accidents with the Luas happened because impatient drivers tried to make it across the junction only to be blocked by traffic ahead and finding themselves in the yellow box when the Luas came.

Closing the level crossing in advance allows everyone time to react if a driver does a similar thing at a DART crossing. Especially as you're closing one barrier at a time, so if you've closed one barrier, you can still get some eejit entering from the other barrier and getting stuck before you've a chance to close it. And it's probably quicker to radio the train driver to stop than it is to try and instruct a line of cars to reverse.

John R · 23-02-2008 1:53am

Stark wrote: »

And it's probably quicker to radio the train driver to stop than it is to try and instruct a line of cars to reverse.

There is no need for the driver to be contacted as the signal that is protecting the level crossing remains red until the barriers are safely down and a signaller has visually confirmed it to be clear, only then will he clear the signal. In order for this to happen in enough time to allow the train to pass through without having to slow down or stop at the signal it must be done well in advance of the train passing the crossing.

The reason that crossings beside stations have extra long wait times is because railway signal sections have overlaps. In order for a train to be allowed approach a station with a level crossing beyond it but within the overlap the crossing must be cleared. AFAIR in the case of the Howth branch the proximity of two crossings to each other with a station in between means they are both in the same signal section so they both must be lowered for that section to be cleared.

subway · 23-02-2008 12:20pm

thanks for the further replies, some really good information there.

with regards the safety (worst case) comments, obviously i dont want an accident to happen, my intial concern was that they were being overly cautious and not doing this the best way.
i believe they are taking the easy way out, not the best way. (easy is not the right word)
with the detail provided john_r and prof_v i can see that the problem is caused by the need to convenience the dart travelling at full speed for as much as possible and that the delays (ie, level crossings goign down earlier than needed for a train to pass through unhindered) are to allow for the manual verification of clear crossings.

so i guess, armed with this information, is there a better way to do it?
the amount of people using sutton station is ever increasing (larger trains are testament to that) and the traffic problem is only going to get worse as time goes by.

what do they do on the continent or in the US/UK?
is there a solution to this problem?

Skyhater · 23-02-2008 2:12pm

subway wrote: »

............
is there a solution to this problem?

Get rid of all the LC's on all Dublin Suburban and DART Lines!!

I know it will cost a Fortune, and there are many "interesting" Engineering issues. But the Council/IE must seak a budget for these upgrades.

This would Dramatically improve safety, and maximise rail capacity & Flexibility.
Only then will the DART be able to Offer Dublin a real high frequency "metro" service. (obviously combined with the Interconnector)

Ham'nd'egger · 23-02-2008 2:13pm

subway wrote: »

so i guess, armed with this information, is there a better way to do it?
the amount of people using sutton station is ever increasing (larger trains are testament to that) and the traffic problem is only going to get worse as time goes by.

what do they do on the continent or in the US/UK?
is there a solution to this problem?

There is only three ways for a road to get past a railway; a bridge over it, under it or a level crossing. To bridge a line, you need to either dig under it or rise over it, which as you will understand, would be nigh impossible in central Dublin.

Victor · 23-02-2008 9:54pm

My greatest experience is with the one at Sutton Station and I suspect that is the worst of the 3. http://www.dto.ie/web2006/images/Sutton.pdf

The whole Howth peninsula has a problem insofar as there are only 3 ways out - the railway, Sutton Cross and some bask roads around Sutton Cross.

Some measures to aleviate things would be to

1. Provide a public pedestrian overbridge at Sutton Station and Baldoyle Road.

2. Provide a car park and bus turning area on reclaimed land north of Sutton Station (Sutton Strand?). This would reduce the delay to buses and reduce the overall amount of traffic using the crossing. That area is in a protected zone, although the impingement would be minor.

3. Connect this car park to Burrow Road, again on reclaimed land.

4. Close the Burrow Road level crossing and fit an bridge (road over railway)

5. Use the temporary relief from this to close Baldoyle Road and bridge it, potentially raising the railway and lowering the road.

6. Close Sutton Station level crossing permanently.

This would provide a lot of relief to Sutton Cross, as most traffic would be travelling through instead of turning.

the alternative is to convert the Howth branch to light rail and connect it via Clongriffen to the Metro West / Metro North junction.

A Dub in Glasgo · 23-02-2008 10:59pm

subway wrote: »

what do they do on the continent or in the US/UK?
is there a solution to this problem?

I was part of the team that wrote the Department (RSC) guidance document on Level Crossings and it mainly follows UK practice

Level crossings

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