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The Ascension and the whereabouts of Heaven?
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12-12-2007 12:17pm#1I am genuinely intrigued by where heaven might be. I am wondering if any of you guys here have any ideas on that?
Obviously in biblical times people belived it was in the clouds. I can find no references though in the bible describing Heaven as a pysically invisible (well, to human anyways) realm which I'm sure is the only possible explanation for it's location now, given that, with the advent of aviation and space aviation in the 20th century we can rule out that Heaven actually manifests materialistically somewhere near us - unless we suppose it's a part of one of the inumerable gigantic universes yet to be seen by the human race.
Do you think that in biblical times poeple were able to imagine spiritual dimensions the way we do now? Or is it more likley that they believed that Heaven existed in the clouds? Although there are numerous mentions of the 'spirt' in the bible whenever Heaven (as a place) is mentioned it is nearly always as an actual 'place' physically manifesting somewhere in the universe commonly the sky above the very heads of the people, this is why it is said that they felt closest to heaven when on a mountain or hill but if Heaven actually exists in another dimension or some ultra remote part of a trillion light year away galaxy then I don't imagine standing on a mountain somewhere in Israel would be an effective way of getting closer to it.
So by what I gather from modern theology Heaven is a non physical realm. I wonder then why Jesus ascended? Was this just a symbolic act? It seems to me that the people who recorded the inital events believed that Jesus was going up to heaven through the clouds? No? Does the modern understanding of heaven as a non physical realm make this notion defunct? How can someone ascend upwards into a non physical realm - surely it would exist outside of time and physics and therefore in no specified earthly direction?
What do you think?0
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I though someone on here would have had some insight into the modern christian thinking on this....0
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He ascended to a higher plane, not necessarily one above him.0
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Well, as christians are not biting in large numbers, I'll have a go explaining.
It seems that the writers of the OT thought that heaven was up in the clouds -- Elijah is said to have driven up into the clouds in a horse and chariot which were on fire:
The writers of the NT had similar thoughts:2 Kings 2:1, 11-12 wrote:When the LORD was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal. As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. Elisha saw this and cried out, "My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!" And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them apart.
It shouldn't surprise anybody that the writers of the OT and the NT thought this way, as that's pretty much what most people thought at the time.Luke 24:50-52 wrote:When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.
Aquinas has Bede reporting that paradise is somewhere around the moon, and "disproves" Bede's claim in a short dialog (see here) and develops the idea that it's a "spiritual location" rather than a physical one.
As time moved on, people realized that the heavens, just as Aquinas had said, were not in, or beyond, the clouds, nor did they seem to be at all visible, so the idea that heaven, like god, belonged to a parallel "dimension" of some kind or more simply, existed "outside of space and time". I believe the 'dimension' idea is a 19th century formation, and the outside-of-space-and-time idea is a 20th century religious development, following on from Einstein. I'd certainly like to hear of any earlier occurrences of either of these ideas, if there are any.
As the lack of responses shows, the exact location of heaven isn't something that christians discuss very much and it's not all that easy to trace how the idea has changed over the years. Basically, as humanity's knowledge has expanded past the clouds, the locations available for heaven has stayed one step beyond the evidence available from a pair of eyes.0 -
Well, as christians are not biting in large numbers, I'll have a go explaining.
That they are not..I'm sure it's just my scurrilous reputation rather the difficult subject matter though...:)robin wrote:It seems that the writers of the OT thought that heaven was up in the clouds -- Elijah is said to have driven up into the clouds in a horse and chariot which were on fire:The writers of the NT had similar thoughts:It shouldn't surprise anybody that the writers of the OT and the NT thought this way, as that's pretty much what most people thought at the time.
Aquinas has Bede reporting that paradise is somewhere around the moon, and "disproves" Bede's claim in a short dialog (see here) and develops the idea that it's a "spiritual location" rather than a physical one.
As time moved on, people realized that the heavens, just as Aquinas had said, were not in, or beyond, the clouds, nor did they seem to be at all visible, so the idea that heaven, like god, belonged to a parallel "dimension" of some kind or more simply, existed "outside of space and time". I believe the 'dimension' idea is a 19th century formation, and the outside-of-space-and-time idea is a 20th century religious development, following on from Einstein. I'd certainly like to hear of any earlier occurrences of either of these ideas, if there are any.
As the lack of responses shows, the exact location of heaven isn't something that christians discuss very much and it's not all that easy to trace how the idea has changed over the years. Basically, as humanity's knowledge has expanded past the clouds, the locations available for heaven has stayed one step beyond the evidence available from a pair of eyes.
Interesting isn't it..the way Heaven moved.?0 -
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Bottom line is that we don't know it's location, only how to get there.
It is our spirit that goes and we eventually get a new body. Not sure whether or not it is right away or at th eend of time.
I do think that Heaven is beyond our space and time.0 -
stevejazzx wrote: »I though someone on here would have had some insight into the modern christian thinking on this....
In between our bouts of 'hell and brimstone' Bible bashing some of us find the time to work normal jobs
I'd guess that's the reason.
Boards is unfortunately deemed unsuitable (i.e. too entertaining) by my employers
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stevejazzx wrote: »I am genuinely intrigued by where heaven might be. I am wondering if any of you guys here have any ideas on that?
Obviously in biblical times people belived it was in the clouds. I can find no references though in the bible describing Heaven as a pysically invisible (well, to human anyways) realm which I'm sure is the only possible explanation for it's location now, given that, with the advent of aviation and space aviation in the 20th century we can rule out that Heaven actually manifests materialistically somewhere near us - unless we suppose it's a part of one of the inumerable gigantic universes yet to be seen by the human race.
Do you think that in biblical times poeple were able to imagine spiritual dimensions the way we do now? Or is it more likley that they believed that Heaven existed in the clouds? Although there are numerous mentions of the 'spirt' in the bible whenever Heaven (as a place) is mentioned it is nearly always as an actual 'place' physically manifesting somewhere in the universe commonly the sky above the very heads of the people, this is why it is said that they felt closest to heaven when on a mountain or hill but if Heaven actually exists in another dimension or some ultra remote part of a trillion light year away galaxy then I don't imagine standing on a mountain somewhere in Israel would be an effective way of getting closer to it.
So by what I gather from modern theology Heaven is a non physical realm. I wonder then why Jesus ascended? Was this just a symbolic act? It seems to me that the people who recorded the inital events believed that Jesus was going up to heaven through the clouds? No? Does the modern understanding of heaven as a non physical realm make this notion defunct? How can someone ascend upwards into a non physical realm - surely it would exist outside of time and physics and therefore in no specified earthly direction?
What do you think?
The very short answer to your question is ‘No’ I don't actually know where Heaven or the Heavens are.
The Bible refers to heaven in the plural form a lot. There is more than one apparently. For instance Paul describes a man in Christ being caught up into the third Heaven. II Corinthians 12:2 and in 1 Kings 8:27 "But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!” If we are going to talk about heaven and if our basis for this discussion is grounded on the biblical references then we must also accept other biblical references that refer to multiple Heavens. I think that’s reasonable enough.
Ok so we do not know where the Heavens are we just know where they are not, they are not here on Earth that is for sure. In the beginning God created the Heavens (plural) and the Earth (singular). Seemingly in different locations be they physical or non Physical. If it or they are physical place(s) then it’s possibly they are not in the near vicinity of our visible universe or if it is we are unable to locate it by any technological means available to us today. Maybe a time will come when we will have the proper instruments to detect it, until then we'll have to go with what we do know about Heaven or the Heavens and work from there.
Here’s a strange verse: “From the heavens the stars fought, from their courses they fought against Sisera” Judges 5:20. According to this verse the stars are in the heavens. Interesting. "The earth trembled and quaked, the foundations of the heavens shook; they trembled because he was angry.” 2 Samuel 22:8 From this verse we learn that the heavens also have foundations. “For who in the skies above can compare with the LORD ? Who is like the LORD among the heavenly beings?” Psalm 89:6. “Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will” The heavens have hosts of beings according to these verses. They meet Jacob in Genesis 32:1-2 “And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him. And when Jacob saw them, he said, This is God's host: and he called the name of that place Mahanaim.” And Matthew 22:30 states: “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.” So there are stars in the heavens and the heavens have hosts of beings, let us move on.
Heaven in the scripture is always depicted as being up somewhere above the earth. “For as high as the heavens are ABOVE the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him;” Psalm 103:11. “And he directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking UP to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves.” Matthew 14:19 It is also referred to as a place to be inside. Jesus taught us to pray "Our Father who art IN Heaven" "..Thy will be done ON Earth as it is IN Heaven" from this we see Heaven is a place that could be enclosed somewhere as appose to being a planet like environment. As it is always referred to as a place to be inside as apposed to being upon it like the Earth. "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything IN heaven above or ON the earth beneath or IN the waters below” Exodus 20:4 Remember Paul describes a man being caught up INTO the third Heaven. “I will declare that your love stands firm forever, that you established your faithfulness IN heaven itself.” Psa 89:2. “Our God is IN heaven; he does whatever pleases him” Psalm 115:3. “Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward IN heaven” Matthew 5:12. “Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father IN heaven.” Matthew 6:1. “Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father IN heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father IN heaven. Matthew 10:32-32 And on I could go. I can only take my cues from scripture and the One who claimed to have come from Heaven itself. Jesus Himself. Anyway, He (Jesus) also described Heaven in various ways. If we are serious about wanting to know what Heaven is really like or where it is then I cannot think of anyone better to go by than Jesus, can you? Do you know anyone else ever to have claimed they came from Heaven? I don’t. Ok so what did Jesus have to say about it?
First of all Jesus describes heaven as a Kingdom. That God is there and is ruling this Kingdom. “But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;” Matthew 5:34. In terms of how to get there the following verse tells us that the way to this place is Jesus. He (Jesus) is the way??? “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” John 14:2-6
The following verse points out that not everyone will be equal in the Kingdom of heaven. There will be a least and a greatest. “I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.” Matthew 11:11 So we know there a least in the Kingdom.
There is also a greatest in the Kingdom. “At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 18:1-4
Getting back to your question as to where is heaven? Well who is to say that we can know where it is in our current state? Why do we assume that we can find out such a thing? Paul says: “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.” 1 Corinthians 13:12. If heaven exists and God truly rules it then it is up to Him who gets to go there. If you truly want to know where it is then I suggest asking Jesus to show you. Or if you believe what he says then just follow Him. Read His word and see what He would have you do in your life. God has declared that you will not enter heaven until certain conditions are met. Becoming as humble as a child for instance. If your serious about it then you will do these things, if not then you are wasting you’re time and effort being “genuinely intrigued”0
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