am i leaving myself open to a lawsuit.

21-06-2014 2:00am #1

so today in work i see two young girls aged between 15-16 come into the store , go straight for the alcho aisle and look at bottles for no less than 30secs then walk on outside. which is no issue. they sit away from the shop front. about 40 mins later i go on my break and i notice the two girls still sitting there. i get a call on phone ,yapping away and i catch a glimpse of a man speaking to them. conversation over and start to eat my lunch. the man goes into the store and out five minutes later. i watch him as he walks on over to the girls and slyly put a bottle of vodka into one of the girls handbag.
i rush over and i grab the vodka before she can zip the bag up and brought the man back into the store stating that im am making a citizen arrest as it is illegal to buy or sell alchol to minors. i makeacall to AGS,1hr later i make a call again only to be told that extremely busy and could be a further hour or two. at the same time as my last call to AGS the man i held was onto the guards himself but of course the denyed any wrong doing . i spoke with the guard on the phone explained what happened .. "oh i see" she said and asked me to get his details but he refused to give. i handed the phone back to him and he went on to say that he hoped the cctv is working outside and his lawyer won't be to happy for keeping me here so long. produced his id to me and gave me back the phone. AGS said to me then i will log this incident but you have to let him leave. i said to AGS he just broke the law and now he is treathen me legal action.how is that right and the fact your telling me to let him go will make his case stronger.
i have logged this incident myself with my employer which they say is sufficant but i get a horrible telling that this guy will take legal action.
what are your views?

edit. when outside i did ask the two young girls that if they showed me i.d. i would give bottle back. they had none.

mickdw · 21-06-2014 2:04am

Moral of the story is dont get involved

21-06-2014 2:06am

mickdw wrote: »

Moral of the story is dont get involved

yes moral is the key word. gaud forbid anything was to happen to these two young kids. imagine it was your own child. would you thank me or myob?

goz83 · 21-06-2014 2:07am

Sounds like you did everything about as right as you could. Afaik, it's your employer who is on the hook re any action, because you were acting on their behalf, under their watch. At least thats how it worked in the security industry when i was there. If you have cctv, then great. It all helps. I wouldn't worry about it though.

tvnutz · 21-06-2014 2:11am

mickdw wrote: »

Moral of the story is dont get involved[/QUOTE

That's one of the reasons why the world is such a ****ty place. That kind of attitude.

21-06-2014 2:11am

goz83 wrote: »

Sounds like you did everything about as right as you could. Afaik, it's your employer who is on the hook re any action, because you were acting on their behalf, under their watch. At least thats how it worked in the security industry when i was there. If you have cctv, then great. It all helps. I wouldn't worry about it though.

all on cctv when inside the store but none where he gave bottle to outside.

Tokarev · 21-06-2014 2:13am

Crime. You just hate that crime, don't you? Whether it's because your parents were brutally murdered or your television was brutally stolen, you've vowed to do everything you can to stop crime. Not stop it; you want to kick crime's teeth in. Talk is cheap, and you're ready for something concrete, more concrete than "nothing at all," which is what the rest of us are planning on doing. "But what?" you ask, while browsing the aisles of a cape store. "What can one man -- one extraordinarily surly man -- do?" I'll tell you what. You're going to going to make a citizen's arrests.

Only joking op, you did right.

21-06-2014 2:17am

Tokarev wrote: »

Crime. You just hate that crime, don't you? Whether it's because your parents were brutally murdered or your television was brutally stolen, you've vowed to do everything you can to stop crime. Not stop it; you want to kick crime's teeth in. Talk is cheap, and you're ready for something concrete, more concrete than "nothing at all," which is what the rest of us are planning on doing. "But what?" you ask, while browsing the aisles of a cape store. "What can one man -- one extraordinarily surly man -- do?" I'll tell you what. You're going to going to make a citizen's arrests.

Only joking op, you did right.

fun is the real crime here. and i do like the taste of concrete

okioffice84 · 21-06-2014 2:20am

I'm assuming that you can only hold someone under a citizens arrest for an arrestable offence. afaik what the guy did is not an arrestable offence. So to answer your question, yes you may have left yourself or your employer open to being sued.

21-06-2014 2:23am

Did he get to keep the bottle or did he get a refund for it?

Either way he won't proceed with legal as it'd do him no favours. Considering the content of the Garda phone call (stating why you brought him back in), and that you have him on camera inside the store, and the girls prior to him looking at the same drink, I'd she he's not really able to worm his way out.

Unrelatedly, if it were me, I'd mind my own business. If someone was getting a beating outside the shop I'd interfere in a heartbeat. But for trivial things like this, you're better off just letting it slide.

If the girls didn't get the drink there, they'd have gotten it somewhere else.

I do admire you getting involved, though. Unfortunately it was just too petty a crime in the grand scheme.

21-06-2014 2:30am

okioffice84 wrote: »

I'm assuming that you can only hold someone under a citizens arrest for an arrestable offence. afaik what the guy did is not an arrestable offence. So to answer your question, yes you may have left yourself or your employer open to being sued.

is buying alcohol for a minor an arrestable offense? can someone clarify this. i know one can be fined according to citizen info.

21-06-2014 2:33am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Did he get to keep the bottle or did he get a refund for it?

Either way he won't proceed with legal as it'd do him no favours. Considering the content of the Garda phone call (stating why you brought him back in), and that you have him on camera inside the store, and the girls prior to him looking at the same drink, I'd she he's not really able to worm his way out.

Unrelatedly, if it were me, I'd mind my own business. If someone was getting a beating outside the shop I'd interfere in a heartbeat. But for trivial things like this, you're better off just letting it slide.

If the girls didn't get the drink there, they'd have gotten it somewhere else.

I do admire you getting involved, though. Unfortunately it was just too petty a crime in the grand scheme.

i know it was but if anything bad was to have happened to them it would always stick in the back of my mind and i thought of my own kids at the time.

okioffice84 · 21-06-2014 2:35am

420 wrote: »

is buying alcohol for a minor an arrestable offense? can someone clarify this. i know one can be fined according to citizen info.

Just checked: it's not, sorry.

fasttalkerchat · 21-06-2014 2:41am

How did you detain him? Physically or did he willingly wait one hour?
I think you should take this very seriously if he does get a lawyer involved.

21-06-2014 3:16am

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

How did you detain him? Physically or did he willingly wait one hour?
I think you should take this very seriously if he does get a lawyer involved.

my hand his arm. "lets go back inside".
no struggle. how should i take this more seriously .

biko · 21-06-2014 3:25am

My non-legal opinion is you did everything right.
You apprehended him and immediately phoned the gardai. You then followed their instructions and let him leave.
The old fella was just trying to scare you, he was ****ting himself inside.

I doubt very very much the old fella will allow himself be exposed to anything in connection to buying alcohol to under-aged girls...

Well done OP, we need more like you!

21-06-2014 3:46am

sad thing is that sometimes the system backfires . maybe i should have myob , maybe i shouldn't . sure i feel bad for ruining those girls plans. I'll admit myself that i did drink alcohol underage. yes i'm a hypocrite and yes they'll get it somewhere else one way or another.

But what really blew my mind and made my blood boil even more , so much so that it could have made the news.

he told me that he worked in an off licence but told garda he was a carer. i could have killed him then and there when he said off licence to me.

okioffice84 · 21-06-2014 4:23am

If anything comes of this consult a solicitor

Zambia · 21-06-2014 7:05am

I can only think of one reason a grown man would buy alcohol for a tennage girl and it's not good.

Op you went overboard but your heart is in the right place.

josealdo · 21-06-2014 7:11am

420 wrote: »

my hand his arm. "lets go back inside".
no struggle. how should i take this more seriously .

if ANYONE grabbed me over something so trival I would break his jaw

plus did you ever underage drink . mary whitehouse

josealdo · 21-06-2014 7:16am

Zambia wrote: »

I can only think of one reason a grown man would buy alcohol for a tennage girl and it's not good.

Op you went overboard but your heart is in the right place.

Zambia , you are a pervert to think that . maybe the grown man was reflecting on his own youthful days when half the buzz was asking some adult to "get us some drink"

then you get the drink and puke your heart up . all part of growing up .

OP ... get a life

Arbiter of Good Taste · 21-06-2014 7:26am

Anyone who thinks this is a trivial offence, cop on. Three weeks ago there were hordes of teens drinking and causing havoc in Howth - where do you think they got the drink? B***ards like that guy. That's just one example.

OP morally you did the right thing. Hope it works out ok for you.

Ted_YNWA · 21-06-2014 7:29am

figs666 wrote: »

Zambia , you are a pervert to think that . maybe the grown man was reflecting on his own youthful days when half the buzz was asking some adult to "get us some drink"

then you get the drink aund puke your heart up . all part of growing up .

OP ... get a life

That's the problem with this country

supposedly all part of growing up .....

OP you did as much as you could do, can't see anything happening here.

I did / he did ...... Case.

whupdedo · 21-06-2014 7:29am

theirs no such thing as a citizens arrest, from what it seems you physically restrained a man on a public footpath and held him for an hour against his will, it might not have happened like that but their is a case to be made for it
You did the right thing but, if anything comes of this it could all be turned on its head by the fact you held him in the shop for an hour
What kind of guy was he to let himself be kept in the store for that amount of time anyway, what he right in the head, most people would just tell you to **** off

Harry Angstrom · 21-06-2014 8:20am

Was it worth all that just for a naggin of vodka?

No Pants · 21-06-2014 9:20am

I get asked by teenagers (girls and boys) to buy drink for them approximately once a year as I go into the local shop. I always decline with a laugh. The risk is all mine and there is no reward; why would I do it?

I would not allow shop staff to detain me though. I'd let an accusation be made and I'd wait for the Gardai if they were turning up immediately. If not, then I'd leave.

smcgiff · 21-06-2014 9:36am

I'm surprised the gardai didn't point out there is no such thing as citizen's arrest while talking to them on the phone.

It could be construed you assaulted the man by putting your hand on his shoulder. Again, why did he stay? Maybe he knows there's much €€€ in such cases.

It was good of you to take the alcohol off the kids, but it was beyond your remit to detain the moron that obliged the kids. Your employer is at risk here, not you.

userod · 21-06-2014 9:44am

What will happen here is the gaurds will do nothing, the man will do nothing, the girls will do nothing, and you'll do nothing.

Your man must have had the patience of jove to wait around for you for a couple of hours while you saved the world from this grotesque tragedy.

Stay out of other peoples business in future.

userod · 21-06-2014 9:47am

No Pants wrote: »

I get asked by teenagers (girls and boys) to buy drink for them approximately once a year as I go into the local shop. I always decline with a laugh. The risk is all mine and there is no reward; why would I do it?

I would not allow shop staff to detain me though. I'd let an accusation be made and I'd wait for the Gardai if they were turning up immediately. If not, then I'd leave.

I've done it a few times, mainly because I remember my younger days when I needed the favour myself.

Karma is c*nt.

gctest50 · 21-06-2014 9:56am

smcgiff wrote: »

I'm surprised the gardai didn't point out there is no such thing as citizen's arrest while talking to them on the phone.

It could be construed you assaulted the man by putting your hand on his shoulder. Again, why did he stay? Maybe he knows there's much €€€ in such cases.

It was good of you to take the alcohol off the kids, but it was beyond your remit to detain the moron that obliged the kids. Your employer is at risk here, not you.

The murderous rage maybe ? "so much so it could have made the news"

The guy played along with him to give the girls a chance to escape.

420 wrote: »

But what really blew my mind and made my blood boil even more , so much so that it could have made the news.

he told me that he worked in an off licence but told garda he was a carer. i could have killed him then and there when he said off licence to me.

Mikros · 21-06-2014 9:59am

whupdedo wrote: »

theirs no such thing as a citizens arrest

Yes there is. Power of arrest for anyone (not just a member of An Garda Siochana) is clearly provided for in Section 4(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 1997. It only applies for an arrestable offence though - buying alcohol for a minor is not such an offence.

In addition at common law all persons, including a member of the Garda Síochána, may arrest without warrant any person who has committed or is committing a breach of the peace in his or her presence.

Finally, under section 19 of the Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Act 1976 any person may arrest a person whom he or she reasonably suspects of being in the act of committing, or having committed, any offence scheduled in that Act, these are offences of the kind associated with terrorism, if committed in Northern Ireland.

smcgiff · 21-06-2014 10:23am

Mikros wrote: »

Yes there is. Power of arrest for anyone (not just a member of An Garda Siochana) is clearly provided for in Section 4(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 1997. It only applies for an arrestable offence though - buying alcohol for a minor is not such an offence.

In addition at common law all persons, including a member of the Garda Síochána, may arrest without warrant any person who has committed or is committing a breach of the peace in his or her presence.

Finally, under section 19 of the Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Act 1976 any person may arrest a person whom he or she reasonably suspects of being in the act of committing, or having committed, any offence scheduled in that Act, these are offences of the kind associated with terrorism, if committed in Northern Ireland.

Interesting. How does someone arrest a person and are you allowd to touch them?

gavindublin · 21-06-2014 10:24am

There is no law stopping an adult purchasing alcohol to give to a minor. Its against the law for an under 18 unaccompanied by an adult to be in your shop/off license area browsing though.

and its illegal to allow alcohol purchased in your store to be consumed on any road, lane or byway within 100m of the store.

that would cover you taking the bottle back, but not the male.

PLUG71 · 21-06-2014 10:30am

Yes o/p I think you left yourself open here and I can also see why you did what you did.

The guy had every right to have you for assault or defend himself againt you.

To be honest I have been there under slightly diffrent circs and sometimes we just act without thinking.

Anyone that buys booze for minors are stupid anyway so he is unlikely to do fcuk all!

Pro Hoc Vice · 21-06-2014 10:39am

gavindublin wrote: »

There is no law stopping an adult purchasing alcohol to give to a minor. Its against the law for an under 18 unaccompanied by an adult to be in your shop/off license area browsing though.

and its illegal to allow alcohol purchased in your store to be consumed on any road, lane or byway within 100m of the store.

that would cover you taking the bottle back, but not the male.

There is a law prohibiting an adult from purchasing alchool for a minor. Section 32 of the 1988 Act, http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1988/en/act/pub/0016/sec0032.html#sec32

sham58107 · 21-06-2014 10:40am

how are you connected to shop,security? owner?.how do you know guy was not with girls did you see money change hands?.
Citizens arrest in such trivial matter hold no water and why did guy stay FOR 1 HOUR. were you detaining him in any way ie holding against his will which he could later say.

Mikros · 21-06-2014 10:42am

gavindublin wrote: »

There is no law stopping an adult purchasing alcohol to give to a minor.

Yes there is. There are so many amendments to the Intoxicating Liquor Acts I can't be bothered looking through it all, but here is the original provision:

INTOXICATING LIQUOR ACT, 1988
32.—(1) A person shall not—
(a) purchase intoxicating liquor for delivery to, or consumption by, a person under the age of 18 years in any place other than a private residence,
...
(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence

FreudianSlippers · 21-06-2014 10:42am

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

There is a law prohibiting an adult from purchasing alchool for a minor. Section 32 of the 1988 Act, http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1988/en/act/pub/0016/sec0032.html#sec32

With the exception of private residences IIRC.

Sorry, cross-post with Mikros; is private residence defined in the Act by chance? Sorry, not being lazy just can't click through ATM. It would be interesting if it wasn't - wouldn't that suggest if you brought a bunch of alcohol to a house party for minors you wouldn't fall afoul of the act?

gavindublin · 21-06-2014 10:43am

Mikros wrote: »

Yes there is. There are so many amendments to the Intoxicating Liquor Acts I can't be bothered looking through it all, but here is the original provision:

INTOXICATING LIQUOR ACT, 1988
32.—(1) A person shall not—
(a) purchase intoxicating liquor for delivery to, or consumption by, a person under the age of 18 years in any place other than a private residence,
...
(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence

sorry lads my mistake, I was only reading from the code of practise on the sale and service of alcohol. It wasnt mentioned in that.

Pro Hoc Vice · 21-06-2014 10:44am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

With the exception of private residences IIRC.

Yes, in the instant case the drink was given in a public place.

To the OP the other guy has a very good case for trespass on the person and unlawful detention, depending on the facts he may also have a defamation case but I doubt he would win on that one. It was a very stupid thing to do and could end up costing tens of thousands, hop your employer has insurance to cover this.

Dangel4x4 · 21-06-2014 10:54am

420 wrote: »

my hand his arm. "lets go back inside".
no struggle. how should i take this more seriously .

You've left yourself open to an allegation of false imprisonment by laying hands on a person and bringing back him onto your premises. You might have been able to justify that if you reasonably believed he has stolen something, but what you did was insane...

Section 15 of the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act, 1997
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0026/sec0015.html

You and your employer should be seeking legal advice from a professional at this point.

Mikros · 21-06-2014 11:01am

smcgiff wrote: »

Interesting. How does someone arrest a person and are you allowd to touch them?

The same principles would apply as to an arrest by An Garda Siochana, with the proviso that the power is only available if the person would otherwise avoid, or attempt to avoid arrest by AGS and that as soon as possible after the person is arrested they are transferred to the custody of AGS.

So reasonable force would be allowable, depending on the circumstances.

But the whole area is a legal minefield, and there is a very good reason why AGS are trained as they are. Good intentions won't carry much weight if you illegally detain someone.

Vision of Disorder · 21-06-2014 11:03am

OP, having worked in retail for years and dealt with countless incidents not a million miles from yours (mostly shoplifting) I can assure you that you will almost definitely never hear from that guy again. Mouthing off about potential legal action is an instinctive reaction for the average jackass that is rarely followed up on. Shoplifters (again, not the same in your instance I know) are predictable creatures for the most part.

They,

1) Deny
2) Ask to pay
3) Tell you it's the first time they've done it
4) Spin some tale of personal hardship.

It's all about damage limitation. In your case this guy was basically flexing his muscles. If he felt that aggrieved he would have stuck around to present his case to the police. I'm sure you'll worry for a while but you won't hear from him again.

Dangel4x4 · 21-06-2014 11:16am

Vision of Disorder wrote: »

OP, having worked in retail for years and dealt with countless incidents not a million miles from yours (mostly shoplifting) I can assure you that you will almost definitely never hear from that guy again.

Really? You can be 100% certain of that?

The most recent settlement I read about was €70,000 to six schoolkids who were falsely imprisoned by a clothes shop... That's a nice payout.

21-06-2014 11:44am

figs666 wrote: »

if ANYONE grabbed me over something so trival I would break his jaw

plus did you ever underage drink . mary whitehouse

well it obvious that you have not read the entire thread. maybe go and break your own jaw.read fully then reply. a-hole

21-06-2014 11:46am

figs666 wrote: »

Zambia , you are a pervert to think that . maybe the grown man was reflecting on his own youthful days when half the buzz was asking some adult to "get us some drink"

then you get the drink and puke your heart up . all part of growing up .

OP ... get a life

get a life . then in that case i hope it wasn't your own child.

Pro Hoc Vice · 21-06-2014 11:46am

Vision of Disorder wrote: »

OP, having worked in retail for years and dealt with countless incidents not a million miles from yours (mostly shoplifting) I can assure you that you will almost definitely never hear from that guy again. Mouthing off about potential legal action is an instinctive reaction for the average jackass that is rarely followed up on. Shoplifters (again, not the same in your instance I know) are predictable creatures for the most part.

They,

1) Deny
2) Ask to pay
3) Tell you it's the first time they've done it
4) Spin some tale of personal hardship.

It's all about damage limitation. In your case this guy was basically flexing his muscles. If he felt that aggrieved he would have stuck around to present his case to the police. I'm sure you'll worry for a while but you won't hear from him again.

A month or so ago in cork circuit court a person awarded the max in defamation €50,000. There are numerous such cases every day. You are of course correct shoplifters don't bring defamation cases but that's because they are shoplifters. In this case it is not a shoplifter he may have broken a minor law but that does not justify his detention, trespass I the person, possible assault, possible defamation.

If the guy is anyway clever he will be going into a solicitor On monday.

21-06-2014 11:52am

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

There is a law prohibiting an adult from purchasing alchool for a minor. Section 32 of the 1988 Act, http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1988/en/act/pub/0016/sec0032.html#sec32

that's the one. i was really hoping that this guy will be fined fir such offence. and yes the did break the law when he supplied alcohol to minor.

on another note some peoples attitudes stink here. so much so i can't stand the smell anymore.
case closed

Dangel4x4 · 21-06-2014 11:59am

420 wrote: »

that's the one. i was really hoping that this guy will be fined fir such offence. and yes the did break the law when he supplied alcohol to minor.

on another note some peoples attitudes stink here. so much so i can't stand the smell anymore.
case closed

*Your* attitude stinks - you come across like a wannabe cop.

Were you expecting people to congratulate you for your actions?

Your employer should be looking for a way to distance himself from you - saying you were off the clock, and on a frolic during your lunchbreak...

gctest50 · 21-06-2014 12:01pm

420 wrote: »

.......
case closed

You can tell the judge that

"Sorry Your Honour, I'm not really interested in this - case closed"

You must say it exactly like that though

PLUG71 · 21-06-2014 12:03pm

:rolleyes:

420 wrote: »

that's the one. i was really hoping that this guy will be fined fir such offence. and yes the did break the law when he supplied alcohol to minor.

on another note some peoples attitudes stink here. so much so i can't stand the smell anymore.
case closed

am i leaving myself open to a lawsuit.

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