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Gas boiler that also generates electricty.

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  • 28-10-2014 1:02pm
    #1
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭


    Just spotted this new type of boiler.
    Been launched by flowenergy.co.uk

    Looks interesting, had heard of concept before.
    If anybody can post link to article, or website please do. As I can never get that to work.
    Thanks.

    Look up Daily Mail on line.


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    #2
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    scudo2 wrote: »
    Just spotted this new type of boiler.
    Been launched by flowenergy.co.uk

    Looks interesting, had heard of concept before.
    If anybody can post link to article, or website please do. As I can never get that to work.
    Thanks.

    Look up Daily Mail on line.

    Here is the link Scudo.
    http://www.flowenergy.uk.com/

    Had a quick look at the tech end of it. Information a bit sparce. How much does the switching gear (to allow its electricity to be used alongside your normal supply) cost? It is using gas to evaporate a liquid to to produce electricity...surely this is using heat that could otherwise be used by the heating system. Perhaps, it still produces electricity cheaply. Maintenance costs? How much is this extra feature adding to the cost of the boiler? 92% efficiency..does this use the electricity produced in this calculation? It seems that you are tied into a contract with Flowenergy if you want to buy this.
    Anyway, I am a natural sceptic. People can make up their own minds.

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #3
    Robbie.G
    Registered Users Posts: 1,884 ✭✭✭Robbie.G


    scudo2 wrote: »
    Just spotted this new type of boiler.
    Been launched by flowenergy.co.uk

    Looks interesting, had heard of concept before.
    If anybody can post link to article, or website please do. As I can never get that to work.
    Thanks.

    Baxi/ Potterton have one can't think of what's it's called


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    #4
    JamesM
    Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭JamesM


    Micro CHP it's called. I first heard of it when Neil, whose boiler you serviced a while back did some investigation into it.
    This site explains how it works. http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generating-energy/Choosing-a-renewable-technology/Micro-CHP-micro-combined-heat-and-power
    Jim.


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    #5
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    A total waste of time unless you can buy gas at wholesale prices. A good condensing boiler is 98 percent thermally efficient. If this is able to deliver 98 present of the energy into the heating system that only leaves 2% for energy generation. Hardly worth talking about.

    Systems like this generally work by being principally electrical generators and using the waste heat for heating. This is the system used in district heating systems. A central heating system is principally used for heating. A system like this advertised would be slower to heat up and burn more gas. It's usefulness would depend on the cost of a kilowatt hour of electrical output from burning gas vs a kilowatt hour from the mains supply. I doubt it is more efficient.

    Looks like green washing to me.


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    #6
    Aln_S
    Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭Aln_S


    With the stresses on the Low Voltage power grid at the moment especially in the UK these may be closer than we think.

    Volkswagen have developed a unit too http://www.volkswagenag.com/content/vwcorp/info_center/en/news/2010/11/Launch_of_the_home_power_plant.html

    The idea of these units too is part of the swarm power thinking where everybody can contribute to the grid taking the pressure off the power stations.


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    #7
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Someone should tell Eirgrid. The feed in tariff is to be scrapped.


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    #8
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,774 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    I priced this out for a larger CHP unit for a relatively large electricity user customer a while ago (I work in the electricity business.)

    Here is the basic concept.

    When you buy a unit of electricity, it is the result of the burning of two or three units of fossil fuel, because the generation is so inefficient. The inefficiency is lost in the form of waste heat.

    With this unit, much the same applies. The difference is that the waste heat gets put to use in your house. This means that pretty much all the energy should be used.

    It may be that this works well in the UK is because there is a good 'feed in' tariff available. By and large, you won't get much of a feed-in tariff in Ireland. Even in the UK, it's hard to see how it would really make sense in a domestic setup. These systems return only 16 percent of the energy as electricity, a KW or so. What is the real point in that? If you have a requirement for the heat, it might work. (It didn't make sense for the customer I evaluated it for, because although he could use all the electricity he could get, he had no real use for the heat.)

    I don't think there are all that many gas CH installations getting 92 percent efficiency in Ireland, because the temperature of the water returning to the boiler is too high.

    Re wholesale gas prices, it's sort of swings and roundabouts. You have to pay for the distribution cost of the gas, for sure, and that is a cost that power stations may be able to avoid, but on the other hand you avoid paying the distribution/transmission cost of the electricity you generate.

    These types of systems don't do much to relieve the power grid, unfortunately. The concept of micro generation is controversial to say the least. Having a lot of small sources changes the way the grid needs to be managed and people who run grids tend to whine a bit about this. The accepted wisdom (not accepted by everybody, it must be said and solar PV is changing this) is that in general, if you want to generate electricity cheaply, it is better to do it on a vast scale at a centralised location.

    It is worth saying that peak demand in Ireland has fallen over the last few years. There is headroom on the network for a while yet. (This is a very simplified statement of the state of affairs.)


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    #9
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,300 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Wearb wrote: »
    Here is the link Scudo.
    http://www.flowenergy.uk.com/

    Had a quick look at the tech end of it. Information a bit sparce. How much does the switching gear (to allow its electricity to be used alongside your normal supply) cost? It is using gas to evaporate a liquid to to produce electricity...surely this is using heat that could otherwise be used by the heating system. Perhaps, it still produces electricity cheaply. Maintenance costs? How much is this extra feature adding to the cost of the boiler? 92% efficiency..does this use the electricity produced in this calculation? It seems that you are tied into a contract with Flowenergy if you want to buy this.
    Anyway, I am a natural sceptic. People can make up their own minds.

    CHP efficiency genreally includes both heat and power in its calculation

    What is interesting is that they operate a PAYS deal. These are meant to be in Ireland already and replace the SEAI grants. It'll be interesting to see what PAYS scheme our utilities companies come up with


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    #10
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    ted1 wrote: »
    CHP efficiency genreally includes both heat and power in its calculation

    In that case, it might be just as cheap to have a gas fired generator and heat electric heaters from it.
    Only joking... to illustrate the problem of evaluating these things.

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #11
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,300 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Wearb wrote: »
    In that case, it might be just as cheap to have a gas fired generator and heat electric heaters from it.
    Only joking... to illustrate the problem of evaluating these things.

    A kwh of gas is 1/3 the price of electricity. So if the unit is only 34% efficent when generating electricity, then the heat element is free. That's where these things come into their own, they need to be sized correctly, without seen the actual figures it's hard to say how good or bad they actually are. If you end up dumping heat then it's wrongly sized


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    #12
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    ted1 wrote: »
    A kwh of gas is 1/3 the price of electricity. So if the unit is only 34% efficent when generating electricity, then the heat element is free.

    Almost exactly my point about going the whole hog with a gas fired generator.

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #13
    lgk
    Registered Users Posts: 589 ✭✭✭lgk


    On top of scrapping the feed in tariff for new applicants after Dec. 31st, (currently only 9c a kWh anyway), Eirgrid will no longer pay for the installation of the import/export meter required. So you'll have to factor that into any payback calculations. You'll only save on the electricity you're using at the time the boiler is running, and you'll get nothing for the excess.


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