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Leisure Battery

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    #2
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The deep cycle battery is alive and well.

    Starter battery in a deep cycle application: 300 cycles.
    Bosch/Vatra Silver Calcium starter battery in a deep cycle application: 600 cycles.
    Semi-traction Lead Antimony battery in a deep cycle application: 1000 - 1200 cycles.

    "Our sole aim here is to prolong the life of Motorhome chargers which most of the time are damaged by Batteries past their best." not fit for purpose.

    The only way a Silver Calcium will outperform a deep cycle is if it is being abused or used as a starter battery/hybrid.


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    #3
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I really wouldn't advise paying too much attention to that web-site it's full of miss-information and bad practice. Although they almost know what they are talking about I can find a fault with their method about every third paragraph. It's mostly just testament to how badly MHs are wired that implementing their practices could improve things.
    It's a bit like them monkeys writing Shakespeare imho.


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    #4
    browniepoints
    Site Banned Posts: 118 ✭✭browniepoints


    Cant see why anyone would use the old fashioned lead acids AGB gels or otherwise when Lead crystal lworks far better

    Lead crystal charge recharge any amp rates gives 3000 cycles all 100% deep cycles
    Minimum expected life time is 15 years

    Bullet proof .
    Only reputed downside is they can be fragile if used in four wheel drive use where there is lots of excessive vibration eg dont drop them .
    However most other batteries wont do well in drop tests
    Even that fragility seems to be overrated as the only thing the other battery makers could say negative about it .
    Cost are about they say 50% more than gel cells
    The lead crysal system is that when battery is dischaged the wet material turns into a lead crystal powder .
    When fully recharged the lead crystal powder becomes a liquid

    http://leadcrystalbatteries.com

    Only source i saw for the battery in Europe was in Belgium but I haven't the time to look it up now.

    These batteries have been available and tested in Asia more than one decade now .

    I think the rest of lead battery market wont talk about them as they will destroy the battery market.

    http://leadcrystalbatteries.com/technology-lead-crystal-batteries/lead-crystal-product-range

    7.2ahm version for eletronics here
    http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/lead-acid-rechargeable-batteries/8262723/

    technical specs
    http://www.bettabatteries.com/

    Jed


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    #5
    JonMac
    Registered Users Posts: 467 ✭✭JonMac


    Sir Liamalot - anything specific on their mistakes?


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    #6
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Interesting.

    http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/lead-acid-rechargeable-batteries/8262758/

    £206 for 55Ah =
    Price / (Watt hours to 50% DOD x cycles ) = £0.21 per kWh

    I can get semi-traction lead antimony delivered to my door for £0.13 per kWh.


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    #7
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    JonMac wrote: »
    Sir Liamalot - anything specific on their mistakes?

    pacman.gif I'll get back to you on that...could take a while.
    Here's a taster.

    Their solar suggestions are pretty dreadful.


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    #8
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Here lead crystal is a registered trademark....smells like AGM to me...


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    #9
    moodrater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,638 ✭✭✭moodrater


    browniepoints wrote: »
    Cant see why anyone would use the old fashioned lead acids AGB gels or otherwise when Lead crystal lworks far better

    You can't see any reason why anyone would use a battery that is available everywhere locally with local comeback in the event of a problem and has stood the test of time for 150 years versus a battery that there is little or no real world data on, costs at least 3 times as much, and you can't even buy. I'll sit this one out for another few decades.


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    #10
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Battery Technology

    "There is a lot of misinformation about Batteries in Motorhomes and Caravans. "

    pot-kettle.jpg


    "During this time while we have had people propose an alternative Battery and/or Technology, none have provided the technical documentation backing up their 'claim', despite our request."

    No technical documentation on any claim has been provided to substantiate any A & N claims.

    "Yet many Motorhomes have Inverters of up to 3,000watts drawing almost 300amps from the batteries"

    This is a woefully inadequately designed system then.

    "There is not a single old style Deep Discharge Leisure battery that we know of designed to handle this power draw."

    Forklift cells; 6500Ah @ 12V
    Don't expect a 100Ah silver calcium battery to handle it either.

    "Similarly, many Caravans now have Motor Movers, huge Electric Motors on each wheel, that draw similar amounts of current to a Car Starter Motor that will again very quickly degrade an old style Leisure battery. This will in turn strain the charger shortening its life."

    It should not be connected to a leisure battery, this is a fitment fault. It should have a dedicated starter battery. Same as boats have bow thruster batteries.
    If the charger can't hack it then it's not fit for purpose.

    "Some Motorhomes are fitted with Intelligent Power distribution units which prevent any power being taken from the battery when it drops below 10.5v - 11v. Where these units are fitted, a Deep Discharge battery will not be allowed to Deep Discharge to the very low volts for which they are designed."

    11V is too low. Low voltage disconnect should be set to 11.8V.

    "The key to protecting your Battery Charger is understanding how a Battery deteriorates after only a very short time."

    Correction: Simply buying one that can do what's asked of it.

    "Because of the way a conventional Plate Corrodes, a Lead Acid Battery (Gel, AGM or Wet) starts its decline from the moment it is manufactured."

    A battery will increase in capacity during the first 200 conditioning cycles under recommend cycle levels, plateau and then decline from 500 cycles.

    "The final Bosch technological trick, is to seal the tank so no vapour escapes.This technology has been Patented by Bosch/Varta, it connot be copied by any other manufacturer. It really is unique to them, placing them head and shoulders above the rest."

    Correction: We've been drinking the kool-aid.
    There's plenty other calcium inert metal batteries out there in competition...how much silver do you reckon is inside the cell?

    "Click HERE to see how this new advanced Plate construction "

    New composite, but they're still thin plates with high surface area.

    "We don't think any other battery in the price range works better in a Motorhome or Caravan Habitation area."

    ...for Joe Public with a stock system that was never right to begin with, further debased by over-sized loads.

    "A battery does not have to be heavy to be long lasting."

    OPzS batteries 20year service life, two man lift.

    "AGM batteries are amazing bits of technology"

    Over-priced rudimentary lead acid with fancy electrolyte, non-serviceable, finicky, spill free whoop-de-do.

    "However, aside from the risk of premature failure of an AGM, they can take almost twice as long to charge as a Varta Silver/Bosch S5."

    What evidence? Coloumbic efficiency of AGM is 0.9.

    "Why would anyone recommend an AGM battery if your Generator will take twice as long to charge up the batteries using more fuel?"

    Efficiency is subjective of discharge level: real world scenario it's like for like as the battery is nearing fully charged it will take longer to charge.

    "Note also that most of the Motorhome specific Solar Regulators do not have AGM support."

    Well they're a waste of time anyway get a decent regulator.

    "If you require a Habitation battery to discharge as low as 60% (lower than even some AGM batteries) then try the Bosch L4 Traction Wet Acid range."


    Correction: get more batteries.

    "If you have different technology batteries and the charger is optimised for just ONE, how can it be efficient in charging the other?"

    Solution 1: battery chemistry module.
    Solution 2: design the system correctly in the first place.


    "If your battery is twice the age of the warranty, we strongly suggest you replace it."

    If it's not broken don't fix it.

    "We have not seen a Battery tester yet that measures how hard a battery is to charge and the load it places on a charger unit. "

    Ah counter, ammeter, hydrometer, pencil. (they claim to be electronic engineers of a sort offering charger repairs :rolleyes:)

    "If your charger has failed because of a Battery past its best, the battery won't take long to do the same with the replacement/repaired charger unit. "

    Replace batteries if required and don't buy the same charger again.

    "came to us for a charger repair after just spending nearly £600 at the Mercedes Dealer having a new Alternator."

    Gobsh1te!

    "However, if you expect any battery to last 5 years in a Motorhome environment, which is probably one of the toughest there is for a battery, you might be expecting a bit too much from something that only cost you £87!! "


    For weekend use only for half the year and one or two weeks in the Summer. If it doesn't you're doing something wrong...not even 200 cycles.

    Domestic off-grid, forklifts, scissor lifts, golf carts, mobility equipment all tougher markets.


    "We would be interested to see a battery comparison that evaluates batteries 'over time' as this is very applicable to our community."

    This guy gets 8 years from a set of Trojans in daily use.



    "A & N Motorhome and Caravan Services do not profess to being experts in battery technology."


    ...yet you sell and repair battery chargers. Tsk tsk.



    Sorry folks point proven I think, halfway through just one article...couldn't be bothered with the rest.


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    #11
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




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    #12
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




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    #13
    blabley
    Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭blabley


    @Sir Liamalot, Cheers for those... It's bloody interesting watching the SterlingPower YouTube channel, but think i'm also more confused now as to what i might need for my build. lol

    As for the OP link, yeah with my very limited knowledge. I can see where A and N are coming from and what point they are trying to make but... nah! think i'll stick with battery's thanks all the same


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    #14
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yeah I've long been a fan, nice to see someone actually doing things right. Expensive gear though.

    Dig in here for the motherload.



    Batteries are a question of range and use. If you want complete autonomy then the DC charging & distribution system are the hardest parts of the puzzle and usually the most difficult resource to recuperate on the road.

    If you want campsite to campsite it's of little consequence.


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    #15
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    blabley wrote: »
    I can see where A and N are coming from and what point they are trying to make

    Me too.

    Calcium starter batteries are the best choice for some people.

    Like them old dry cell batteries.
    Lithium batteries are taking over for drills laptop and portable devices.
    Lithium typically give 600 cycles.
    The old Ni-Cads nobody wants anymore gave 1000 cycles.

    The crux of the matter is Ni-Cads had a memory and needed complete discharge recharge cycles or lost capacity, they also self discharge stupidly fast, so if you're on the job you charge your drill battery, don't use it, then charge it again when you want it.
    Lithium holds it's charge and doesn't have a memory.

    On the face of it the Ni-Cad is a longer lived battery, due to how we use batteries the lithium lives longer.

    I had a laugh when A & N said they don't do solar PV anymore because it doesn't work, if you follow their instructions it won't.
    Blaming the batteries for charger failure doesn't hold much water for me, especially for the price of those things and they are chocolate teapots for wild camping.


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    #16
    browniepoints
    Site Banned Posts: 118 ✭✭browniepoints


    Sir Liamalot wrote: »
    Interesting.

    http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/lead-acid-rechargeable-batteries/8262758/

    £206 for 55Ah =
    Price / (Watt hours to 50% DOD x cycles ) = £0.21 per kWh

    I can get semi-traction lead antimony delivered to my door for £0.13 per kWh.

    What sources do you use for semi traction batteries to Ireland

    I agree with your logic and then the numbers can show the logic doesn't always apply
    Here in Spain where i rest for few weeks before going to Turkey the same Lead crystal 55Ah battery in euros from RS Spain is €307 to the door with 21% VAT included

    Compared to similar AGM type about 60 Ah if your doing light loads such as lights overnight and run battery down to zero in 8 hours the AGM will be cheaper battery in the short run . However for many ocasional leausre battery users might be OK

    The cycle rate on AGM look to be about 250 cycles down to 100% and 500 cycles down to 80% ( correct me if there is other figures but I cant find them so easy. Its seems to me it is the dirty little secret of AGM they dont seem to want to give out so its from unofficial sources. The Lead crystal is fairly exact 860 cycles to 100% and 1600 to 80% depth and at 10% some 7000 cycles with all sorts in between )

    I normally look the one hour watts power rates from tables and then its a totally different story .
    The 55AH if you look the watts per cell you get out for one hour compared to 75Ah AGM they are similar .
    This means if you put a 35 amp load on these batteries 35*12= 400 watts approx they run out in the same time one hour

    The 75 Amp AGM battery is still cheaper but the difference is less

    For practical reasons if we had to compare a AGM with the lead crystal to get 100% deep cycle from lead crystal will give us some 860 cycles . It would mean that to get some some 900 cycles from AGM it will probably require going to 100Ah in a AGM and doing 70% depth cycles best I can figure out ( when we are talking heavy 1 hour to finish 100% deep ccyle use )

    Then the price difference isnt so large between the 100 AH AGM and the 55AH lead crystal and the AGM looks to me to be more fragile to uneducated battery users which is most of the public

    In the caravan motor home world where lets face it most the people are not remotely interested in battery specs and with zero comprehension they can wreck them and will always run the batteries flat
    the Leisure batteries are broken in the hundreds every year .
    I know the camp sites I go to with broken batteries tells the stories

    So for me if I was in the leisure battery sales game they would get only one choice of battery baboon proof lead crystal batteries

    yes knowledgeable people can use AGM and semi traction but for the rest its get the most baboon proof solutions out there to quit to get broken under warranty leisure battery returns .
    Often people who buy these motor homes for €50,00o might bitch to pay €800 for pair of Lead Crystal batteries but often wreck the AGM set they bought for €400 and then give the shops the ear full until they get replacements free.Then and they promptly wreck those replacement AGM again .They often put 2 or 3000 watt inverters on to replace the original too small 1000 watt inverters and keep the same AGM all to run air-con that takes 2.5kilowats

    Also In time lead Crystal cost will probably go down

    I am surprised the Lead crystal prices are so high .Looks like proof the market will pay the price the market will bear than any logic why the lead Crystal battery is so expensive .

    Also the lead crystal batteries have been on the Asian market and other third world regions for over a decade so for me there is no issue on them unless somebody can prove other wise .

    Sorry thats just the way I see it but solar battery collect brigade would come at it from different point of view as they are dealing in 5 kilowatts to run the house for 10 hours .



    Jed


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    #17
    moodrater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,638 ✭✭✭moodrater


    browniepoints wrote: »
    I am surprised the Lead crystal prices are so high .Looks like proof the market will pay the price the market will bear than any logic why the lead Crystal battery is so expensive.

    Also the lead crystal batteries have been on the Asian market and other third world regions for over a decade so for me there is no issue on them unless somebody can prove other wise.

    I'd look at the fact that they're not readily available anywhere as proof that the general market won't bear the price of them.

    With regard to their use in Asia for a decade I don't find any evidence of that except for allegations on their site or to what extent they are supposedly in use.

    They have one 'asian distributer' in an office in dubai. Website registered 2013. Half the suppliers don't even list them on the site.

    The only 'scientific' paper (as an engineer I wouldn't put my name on it) I can find about them is from 2015 and the only references it has are to a pdf on the manufacturers webpage, and a pdf on deltecpowers website. If thats all 5 engineers could come up with for a paper then there is no research papers to back up any of their claims.

    Also in that paper it makes a far more believable claim of 1000 cycles at 80% DOD and 7-10 year lifespan.


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    #18
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I buy my batteries in the UK.


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    #19
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,191 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    Sir Liamalot wrote: »
    I buy my batteries in the UK.

    Sir Liamalot, as those are 6 volt, not every one would have room to fit two in series. Or are they half size ?


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    #20
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Nope. Economy of scale.
    Just honest ta goodness lead: 27kg each.

    Length: 260 mm
    Width: 179 mm
    Height inc. terms: 278 mm

    They're taller and slimmer than a 12V (Smaller footprint than 2 x 12volts) .

    6v is handy you can rotate the weak cells to the middle, outer cells age faster.
    I'd probably buy a Banner or Numax and more PV if I was going solo.
    I hear Trojan TMX are reliable too.


    I'd barely discharge more than 10-15% most of the year with PV, so if I didn't want the van in the Winter there'd be no need for the payload. Overspec-ing has some nice benefits like I can work to the C50/C100 capacity and there's plenty of room to derate for weather and age. They give me 2-3 weeks to 50% DOD in the depths of Winter, alternator (Mk-1) compensated.


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    #21
    browniepoints
    Site Banned Posts: 118 ✭✭browniepoints


    Sir Liamalot wrote: »
    I buy my batteries in the UK.

    Those prices with British VAT of 10% do they deliver them to Ireland for that money or do you pay extra for delivery to ROI ,or do you need to run up north to collect them ,or do you need northern Ireland address to get them sent to Ireland without to pay delivery costs .If you, pay delivery is it HAZ MAT rates or normal kilo rates to ROI and roughly how much for each battery based on needing at least four batteries with mail order .

    I ask because my mate in his field in ROI has a 9 meter 1980s USA 8 liter engine van with LPG that ant gonna anywhere for few years and he needs to make a good solar solution as the genie is killing him in fuel . in few years from now he will go back touring but needs to sell the 7 liter v8 engine to the hot rod people and put in modern diesel to have change left over for the tour .

    Jed


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    #22
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I collect them in the UK.
    Shipping batteries is a little difficult as it's a hazardous substance. A lot of companies won't deal with them.
    I only spotted the minimum order there last night night, the CR-235s which I have, you can get as singles. They're a bit more oomph than most MHs would need (unless there's a compressor fridge in the mix), the CR-220 was cheaper per watt.

    Trojan T-105s are much easier get in Ireland, every scissor-lift in the country runs on them. I just believe Crown are a better battery, but I'm taking someone else's word for it because I've never had Trojans.

    The exchange rate is pretty crap these days so it's not as good a deal as when I bought my last set.


    If your friend isn't moving, get a set of ex-service forklift cells and sort the good from the bad. They're indestructible and you can fill them with rainwater.


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    #23
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    browniepoints wrote: »
    he needs to make a good solar solution .

    Probably best go >24V,
    250W panels are cheap as chips.


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    #24
    browniepoints
    Site Banned Posts: 118 ✭✭browniepoints


    @ Sir Liamalot
    Yes I shall pass on all that info let him decide what plan he will do .He made noises that he might leave and go to France where he knows a field in France with electric on tap even the ferry costs with 9 meter thing are mad money .

    He isn't very electronic the last Time I sorted him out with a 180Ah flooded wet battery all that he could afford in that time . That was combined with 200 watt solar and the petrol 2kw genie and 10 amp charger and I told him to top up the water
    Anyway he forgot to top up the water and killed battery after a few months . He was lucky they gave him a new one so he probably needs something VLRA or SLA Like many Motor home users when he get a skin full which is most every night with the locals potatoes brew his favorite in the west of ROI he forgets most everything .

    Will see how this new idea works or doesn't work or is affordable or not

    Thanks for all the info

    Jed


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    #25
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Was there aira solar charge controller in the mix? If he boiled a FLA dry in months I doubt he'll get much longer from a SLA. Sounds like a charger problem, no battery should be gassing that much.
    Hydrocaps are an option for FLA but cheaper just maintain them. Low budget off-gridding doesn't really suit the non-technically minded.
    Wouldn't be too difficult setup an auto-running gene with a fuel tank level sensor if one was inclined, most higher end inverters have relays built in just for that, some MPPT solar controllers too, MidNite Classic I believe has this feature.

    France is a long way to go for lecky. :pac:
    Cheap land though.

    Wind works well in the whest, about 4 times the cost of PV though.


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    #26
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]





    RelayDriver-F__retouched-430x365.png

    This will do it too.


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    #27
    Odyssey 2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,065 ✭✭✭✭Odyssey 2005


    Sy to butt in here but can any of you clever ppl tell me if a regular battery tester can test a leisure battery or is there a specific tool. Battery was new in sept.but I've a feelin its nackered.
    Thanks Odyssey


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    #28
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A hydrometer is the most accurate.

    2832.jpg

    You can always discharge test it, as that'll give you the most practical results.

    I generally test the charger second.


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    #29
    Odyssey 2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,065 ✭✭✭✭Odyssey 2005


    It may be a problem with the mover (kept cutting out) but I've a feeling it's the bat. Thanks a mill


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    #30
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The regular CCA, voltage drop testers most motor factors have are not recommended for deep cycle batteries.


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    #31
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ah it might be the mover. They're pretty hard on batteries. They should have a dedicated starter battery imho. They'll wreck a deep cycle battery in short order.


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