Intercity capacity reconfiguration

TheBandicoot · 09-09-2013 5:10pm #1

http://www.irishrail.ie/cat_news.jsp?i=4918&p=116&n=237

For Intercity services, Iarnród Éireann is to reconfigure the Intercity railcar fleet. Currently, the 234 carriages in the fleet are configured to form 48 three-carriage trains and 15 six-carriage trains. This has lead to capacity shortages on some services and oversupply on others. The fleet will be reconfigured to form 45 four-carriage trains and 18 three-carriage trains, allowing greater flexibility in train size, with 3, 4, 6, 7, 8 and 9 carriage Intercity trains possible as result by combining train sets together. These changes will be implemented on a phased basis by year end.

So, this means that there will no longer be any single 6car sets, the only way to get a 6car formation is two three cars? I'll miss the 6car 22ks, always thought they are a very impressive sight.

This 3+4 fleet will allow for lots of interesting combinations from a trainspotting perspective. 4 car sets will also allow for improved services on the DSE. I also wonder what will happen to the 'First Class' and buffet carriages, how they will be split between the fleets. The buffet car especially will take a big chunk of seating capacity out of any 3 or 4 car set.

Very interesting times ahead for railcar gricers.

bikeman1 · 09-09-2013 5:51pm

TheBandicoot wrote: »

http://www.irishrail.ie/cat_news.jsp?i=4918&p=116&n=237

So, this means that there will no longer be any single 6car sets, the only way to get a 6car formation is two three cars? I'll miss the 6car 22ks, always thought they are a very impressive sight.

This 3+4 fleet will allow for lots of interesting combinations from a trainspotting perspective. 4 car sets will also allow for improved services on the DSE. I also wonder what will happen to the 'First Class' and buffet carriages, how they will be split between the fleets. The buffet car especially will take a big chunk of seating capacity out of any 3 or 4 car set.

Very interesting times ahead for railcar gricers.

Oh yes riveting stuff alright! I might even come out of retirement for them. A 7 car 22 set what a sight to behold.

dowlingm · 11-09-2013 6:07pm

Seems to me that IE have spent the last few years optimizing their network platforms for 3/6 car 22Ks (90m/176m) and are now binning it. Can a 7 car consist serve a 176m platform without SDO?

goingnowhere · 11-09-2013 6:49pm

Every intercity platform as well as DART + Dublin Commuter area is 165m or longer bar Rosslare line, designed for 7 coach Mk3 or 8 coach 29k

7 coach ICR is the same length as a 8 coach 29k, so go anywhere.

Only gotcha is you cannot use a 4 coach ICR on Cork local, WRC or Nenagh line services which is no bad thing really.

dowlingm · 11-09-2013 9:01pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Every intercity platform as well as DART + Dublin Commuter area is 165m or longer bar Rosslare line, designed for 7 coach Mk3 or 8 coach 29k

7 coach ICR is the same length as a 8 coach 29k, so go anywhere.

Only gotcha is you cannot use a 4 coach ICR on Cork local, WRC or Nenagh line services which is no bad thing really.

Except there are 3 car 22Ks used on the first and second mentioned in recent times, in the WRC case as a link between Dublin-Galway and Dublin-Limerick runs. There are some 90m platforms on Westport too, the avoidance of which means certain loop passings cannot be done if both sets are 4+ length.

For me a lot of the deemed problems could have been addressed by just fitting SDO - which was supposed to happen YEARS ago - instead of empty 4 and 5 set sets flogging around the network doing certification runs, and even if that was actually necessary it could have been done back when 22039 (I think) was in drydock because of the split points incident. Is the reluctance because RSC decided SDO would have to be done by a guard and not a driver?

end of the road · 11-09-2013 10:34pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Except there are 3 car 22Ks used on the first and second mentioned in recent times, in the WRC case as a link between Dublin-Galway and Dublin-Limerick runs. There are some 90m platforms on Westport too, the avoidance of which means certain loop passings cannot be done if both sets are 4+ length.

For me a lot of the deemed problems could have been addressed by just fitting SDO - which was supposed to happen YEARS ago - instead of empty 4 and 5 set sets flogging around the network doing certification runs, and even if that was actually necessary it could have been done back when 22039 (I think) was in drydock because of the split points incident. Is the reluctance because RSC decided SDO would have to be done by a guard and not a driver?

would make sense, after all they wanted rid of all staff on trains apart from the driver and the odd trolly person if one is lucky

LXFlyer · 12-09-2013 11:37am

goingnowhere wrote: »

Every intercity platform as well as DART + Dublin Commuter area is 165m or longer bar Rosslare line, designed for 7 coach Mk3 or 8 coach 29k

7 coach ICR is the same length as a 8 coach 29k, so go anywhere.

Only gotcha is you cannot use a 4 coach ICR on Cork local, WRC or Nenagh line services which is no bad thing really.

dowlingm wrote: »

Except there are 3 car 22Ks used on the first and second mentioned in recent times, in the WRC case as a link between Dublin-Galway and Dublin-Limerick runs. There are some 90m platforms on Westport too, the avoidance of which means certain loop passings cannot be done if both sets are 4+ length.

For me a lot of the deemed problems could have been addressed by just fitting SDO - which was supposed to happen YEARS ago - instead of empty 4 and 5 set sets flogging around the network doing certification runs, and even if that was actually necessary it could have been done back when 22039 (I think) was in drydock because of the split points incident. Is the reluctance because RSC decided SDO would have to be done by a guard and not a driver?

Personally, I have strong reservations about this plan - I would have preferred that the 5 high capacity six-piece be shorted to 4pce, while retaining the 10 6pce sets and as a result you would have:
10 x 6pce Premier Class
15 x 4pce
38 x 3pce

The current plan will result in:
10 x 4pce Premier Class
35 x 4pce
18 x 3pce

Assuming that maintenance requirements will mean 2-3 3-car sets out of service at any time, that will mean only 15 units available each day. That leaves very little wriggle room for problems.

Turning to platform lengths, people are also forgetting that there is a stopping margin that has to be allowed for - which is 5m.

Therefore, the minimum platform lengths for operating ICR sets are:

3 car - 75m
4 car - 98m
6 car - 145m
7 car - 168m

That creates serious operational issues, as the following stations cannot accommodate a 4 car train at their loop platforms:

Mayo: Castlerea and Ballyhaunis
Kerry: Rathmore
South Tipperary: Carrick-on-Suir

Therefore, for example two 4pce trains cannot cross at those stations. One of the crossing trains MUST be a 3pce train.

Also, the following platforms will be too short for 4pce sets:
Heuston Platform 1
Foxford
Cloughjordan
Birdhill
Sixmilebridge
Gort
Ardrahan
Craughwell
All East Cork stations

From a rostering perspective I can see this potentially being an absolute nightmare. If a train is rostered as a 7pce, and one of the sets goes unserviceable, and no spare sets are available (quite possible with the small number of 3pce sets), then the train may have to operate as a 3pce or 4pce - and that will mean people left behind.

Only one platform at Limerick can accommodate a 7pce train.

8pce sets realistically can operate only to Cork or Connolly-Drogheda-Dundalk. 2 x 4pce sets (splitting at Athlone) can operate to Galway/Westport, but cannot serve Clara en route.

bikeman1 · 12-09-2013 12:19pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Personally, I have strong reservations about this plan - I would have preferred that the 5 high capacity six-piece be shorted to 4pce, while retaining the 10 6pce sets and as a result you would have:
10 x 6pce Premier Class
15 x 4pce
38 x 3pce

The current plan will result in:
10 x 4pce Premier Class
35 x 4pce
18 x 3pce

Assuming that maintenance requirements will mean 2-3 3-car sets out of service at any time, that will mean only 15 units available each day. That leaves very little wriggle room for problems.

Turning to platform lengths, people are also forgetting that there is a stopping margin that has to be allowed for - which is 5m.

Therefore, the minimum platform lengths for operating ICR sets are:

3 car - 75m
4 car - 98m
6 car - 145m
7 car - 168m

That creates serious operational issues, as the following stations cannot accommodate a 4 car train at their loop platforms:

Mayo: Castlerea and Ballyhaunis
Kerry: Rathmore
South Tipperary: Carrick-on-Suir

Therefore, for example two 4pce trains cannot cross at those stations. One of the crossing trains MUST be a 3pce train.

Also, the following platforms will be too short for 4pce sets:
Heuston Platform 1
Foxford
Cloughjordan
Birdhill
Sixmilebridge
Gort
Ardrahan
Craughwell
All East Cork stations

From a rostering perspective I can see this potentially being an absolute nightmare. If a train is rostered as a 7pce, and one of the sets goes unserviceable, and no spare sets are available (quite possible with the small number of 3pce sets), then the train may have to operate as a 3pce or 4pce - and that will mean people left behind.

Only one platform at Limerick can accommodate a 7pce train.

8pce sets realistically can operate only to Cork or Connolly-Drogheda-Dundalk. 2 x 4pce sets (splitting at Athlone) can operate to Galway/Westport, but cannot serve Clara en route.

Some very good points there. This could all have been solved if they ordered them with selective door operation in the first place or at least got it installed.

How much staff time and effort is going to be wasted changing all these sets around. Re-programming them. Testing them. Route clearing them. Re working all the diagrams and links etc?

Seems like a huge waste when the problems listed above cause great concern?

corktina · 12-09-2013 1:12pm

Cost cutting in action...we've also seen it with the Dart....where next I wonder?

Jamie2k9 · 12-09-2013 2:38pm

7 coach sets limit trains crossing at certain stations and any sort of delay that sometimes trains are allowed to cross at the following stations won't be possible.

I'm sure we can expect changes by the end of 2014 and I expect that most of the first class sets will be back to normal.

They will get some savings mid week but other days operations will increase as plenty of 6 coach services at weekend are needed and 3 or 4 won't do so they will have no choice in most cases to increase from 6 to 7 as they have left themselves without enough 3 car sets to make 6.

corktina · 12-09-2013 3:22pm

I fear that what we shall actually see is the withdrawal or storing of large parts of the fleet, with savings being achieved (on paper at least) in servicing and spares costs on the remaining fleet.

What does the future hold for the fleet I wonder?
ICRs operating all Cork line services would be a saving I would imagine if they could dispense with all the 201s
Older railcars must be in jeopardy, as must some DARTs

LXFlyer · 12-09-2013 4:18pm

corktina wrote: »

I fear that what we shall actually see is the withdrawal or storing of large parts of the fleet, with savings being achieved (on paper at least) in servicing and spares costs on the remaining fleet.

What does the future hold for the fleet I wonder?
ICRs operating all Cork line services would be a saving I would imagine if they could dispense with all the 201s
Older railcars must be in jeopardy, as must some DARTs

I don't think that is what will happen - you will still need most of the ICR fleet in service, and virtually the entire DART fleet (excepting the mothballed 8200 Class) is out at peak times.

What may happen is some more Mk 4 sets may be withdrawn from Cork, with the strong rumour being that they will facilitate the refurbishment of the De Dietrich stock on Belfast.

corktina · 12-09-2013 4:53pm

Well as far as I can see, there's a chance that the railcar fleet may be reduced in formation like the DART fleet, together with other savings such as service cuts and line closures . There are I believe several ICRs not in service currently and some Mk4s in store.

IE are under pressure to reduce their losses, so something has to give.

LXFlyer · 12-09-2013 5:26pm

corktina wrote: »

Well as far as I can see, there's a chance that the railcar fleet may be reduced in formation like the DART fleet, together with other savings such as service cuts and line closures . There are I believe several ICRs not in service currently and some Mk4s in store.

IE are under pressure to reduce their losses, so something has to give.

They are of course under pressure, and some sets that are currently 6pce could operate as 4pce sets, which would deliver cost savings.

If ICRs take over more Cork links, then I would not see there much room for any more sets being stored.

Jamie2k9 · 12-09-2013 10:07pm

ICR's taking over the Cork route just wouldn't be possible on key days of the week, no matter what way it's done the capacity just wouldn't be there to go around.

As for MarkIV's heading up North what about TPWS not being in the DVT.

LXFlyer · 12-09-2013 10:14pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

ICR's taking over the Cork route just wouldn't be possible on key days of the week, no matter what way it's done the capacity just wouldn't be there to go around.

As for MarkIV's heading up North what about TPWS not being in the DVT.

Eh, there's going to be the possibly of 7pce and 8pce ICRs - I think that will sort that capacity issue on Cork out.

TPWS can be retro-fitted to the Mark 4 stock - that's hardly an insurmountable problem.

end of the road · 12-09-2013 10:54pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Eh, there's going to be the possibly of 7pce and 8pce ICRs - I think that will sort that capacity issue on Cork out.

he didn't mean that ICRS couldn't meet the capacity requirements if a couple of 3/4 pieces were put together, he meant that theirs not enough units to go round to cover the cork route as well as the current routes

lxflyer wrote: »

TPWS can be retro-fitted to the Mark 4 stock - that's hardly an insurmountable problem.

absolutely

Jamie2k9 · 12-09-2013 11:21pm

he didn't mean that ICRS couldn't meet the capacity requirements if a couple of 3/4 pieces were put together, he meant that theirs not enough units to go round to cover the cork route as well as the current routes

Indeed as it currently stands on the Heuston on Fridays some very busy services are short capacity because of the current 22's on Cork route. There will not be any major scope for capacity reductions across the network once the 4 car sets come into operation on Fridays so it will be impossible to get Cork all ICR as well and even if there have all the 22's in service they still wouldn't manage it.

LXFlyer · 13-09-2013 12:13am

I never said that Cork would be all ICR.

I think you will certainly see more trips being ICR operated though on that route.

Jamie2k9 · 13-09-2013 1:01am

lxflyer wrote: »

I never said that Cork would be all ICR.

I think you will certainly see more trips being ICR operated though on that route.

Sorry my mistake however but they will still be very stretched on Fridays. As it is they could possibly spare 1 Mark4 set to allow one Belfast set be taken out of service at a time for works.

If the Mark4's do make it up north it will be a surprise as the general attitude to the Belfast route is once the border comes neither operator cares what happens once a train passes it and its out of their control.

LXFlyer · 13-09-2013 6:47am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Sorry my mistake however but they will still be very stretched on Fridays. As it is they could possibly spare 1 Mark4 set to allow one Belfast set be taken out of service at a time for works.

If the Mark4's do make it up north it will be a surprise as the general attitude to the Belfast route is once the border comes neither operator cares what happens once a train passes it and its out of their control.

There are actually spare Mark4 sets as it is!!!

corktina · 13-09-2013 8:31am

my concern is that the train service will be tailored to a reduced fleet and frequency reductions, short formations and line closures will result.

The lesson from the past is that reducing the service does not necessarily reduce the costs.

LXFlyer · 13-09-2013 9:23am

corktina wrote: »

my concern is that the train service will be tailored to a reduced fleet and frequency reductions, short formations and line closures will result.

The lesson from the past is that reducing the service does not necessarily reduce the costs.

I genuinely don't think that service reductions will follow from this - you will have the save number of units overall as before.

You will undoubtedly see capacity reductions on certain services some of which could do with it, while other trains will be longer than at present.

corktina · 13-09-2013 9:32am

I hope you are right and I am wrong

corktina · 13-09-2013 6:53pm

see thread on main C&T forum..... :-(

LXFlyer · 13-09-2013 7:17pm

corktina wrote: »

see thread on main C&T forum..... :-(

I do see it - and until I see or hear anything to the contrary officially then I'm not going to take it as gospel. Anything but.

corktina · 13-09-2013 7:33pm

i'm not either, but it is very worrying

LXFlyer · 13-09-2013 7:55pm

corktina wrote: »

i'm not either, but it is very worrying

No it is not.

Frankly you should know better than to believe those "a mate told me" stories.

I've read so many of them over the years on the internet that I could write a book about them and frankly virtually every one of them has turned out to be nonsense, but in the meantime has caused people completely unnecessary concern or worry and wasted their time.

Until you see an NTA consultation paper about this, you can forget it.

And as far as I am concerned, that won't be happening.

corktina · 13-09-2013 8:22pm

head in sand time then eh?

these revelations coupled with the changes to the DART and ICR fleet add up to something more than a rumour perhaps. As I said , I hope I'm wrong

LXFlyer · 13-09-2013 8:29pm

corktina wrote: »

head in sand time then eh?

these revelations coupled with the changes to the DART and ICR fleet add up to something more than a rumour perhaps. As I said , I hope I'm wrong

They are not revelations. They are nothing but rumours.

There is a hell of a difference.

Frankly people need to take these things with a grain of salt.

JeffK88 · 13-09-2013 8:44pm

13-09-13 ....... RIP IE

MGWR · 14-09-2013 3:50pm

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Changes in train fleet utilisation to save energy costs – IrishRail.ie

For Intercity services, Iarnród Éireann is to reconfigure the Intercity railcar fleet. Currently, the 234 carriages in the fleet are configured to form 48 three-carriage trains and 15 six-carriage trains. This has lead to capacity shortages on some services and oversupply on others. The fleet will be reconfigured to form 45 four-carriage trains and 18 three-carriage trains, allowing greater flexibility in train size, with 3, 4, 6, 7, 8 and 9 carriage Intercity trains possible as result by combining train sets together. These changes will be implemented on a phased basis by year end.

So, this means that there will no longer be any single 6-car sets; the only way to get a 6-car formation is two three cars? I'll miss the 6-car 22ks; always thought they are a very impressive sight.

This 3+4 fleet will allow for lots of interesting combinations from a trainspotting perspective. 4 car sets will also allow for improved services on the DSE. I also wonder what will happen to the 'First Class' and buffet carriages, how they will be split between the fleets. The buffet car especially will take a big chunk of seating capacity out of any 3 or 4 car set.

Very interesting times ahead for railcar gricers.

I wonder what this will cost the exchequer, though. With trailer cars, you could make a train any size merely by shunting and coupling/decoupling. And you'd only hear engine noise adjacent to (rather than underneath the floor of) the car nearest the engine, and still way quieter than an under-floor DMU motor.

Jamie2k9 · 14-09-2013 4:47pm

The dinning cart is only 18 seats smaller than other standard end on the 3 car sets.

4 car sets will have 198 standard seats and then the 36 first class. First class will be more less done away with so wouldn't worry about it or some of the first class 6 car sets will be back into six pieces at some stage in 2014 as they have way to many 4 car sets and not enough 3's and there for not being able to make up enough 6 car sets.

The general plans sounds good but they should of though about it more before deciding that all the fleet will be 4 or 3 car sets. I would keep 2 or 3 full 6 piece sets as they will be required a lot and now in many causes when a service needs 6 coaches it will end up with 7 as there just won't be enough sets or 3 to be put together.

corktina · 14-09-2013 5:42pm

6 piece formations can easily be achieved by creating more three cars by removing a vehicle from a four car.

If there is a drastic reduction in services, then there might well be enough ICR capacity to cover the entire (remaining) network

I hope that isn't the case.

Jamie2k9 · 14-09-2013 5:45pm

corktina wrote: »

6 piece formations can easily be achieved by creating more three cars by removing a vehicle from a four car.

If there is a drastic reduction in services, then there might well be enough ICR capacity to cover the entire (remaining) network

I hope that isn't the case.

Removing a coach but it will need to be put back into another set. There won't be any major cuts to intercity routes next year.

corktina · 14-09-2013 6:09pm

I doubt there will, too much of a political hot-potato.

LXFlyer · 14-09-2013 6:22pm

I would imagine that the 1st Class will still feature on the key business trains as at present and will be used on the Cork services that the ICRs take over.

As for service cuts - there have been no suggestions that will happen and I don't expect any to be honest.

kc56 · 14-09-2013 6:48pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The general plans sounds good but they should of though about it more before deciding that all the fleet will be 4 or 3 car sets. I would keep 2 or 3 full 6 piece sets as they will be required a lot and now in many causes when a service needs 6 coaches it will end up with 7 as there just won't be enough sets or 3 to be put together.

The whole idea is to run 4-car sets where at present they are using 2x3 or 6 car sets in situations where 6-cars are not fully utilized. There are many services that are overloaded at 3 but would be fine with 4 cars. At the same time, they will be able increase capacity on certain routes where 6-cars are insufficient. In effect by using 4-car units, they will free up some of 3-cars so I don't see there being an issue with a shortage of 3-car sets.

Jamie2k9 · 14-09-2013 7:26pm

The whole idea is to run 4-car sets where at present they are using 2x3 or 6 car sets in situations where 6-cars are not fully utilized. There are many services that are overloaded at 3 but would be fine with 4 cars. At the same time, they will be able increase capacity on certain routes where 6-cars are insufficient. In effect by using 4-car units, they will free up some of 3-cars so I don't see there being an issue with a shortage of 3-car sets.

I'm know what the idea is but what will happen is some services that are currently fine for 3 or 6 car sets will have to be increased to 4 or 7 car trains. They are taking to much flexibility away by have a load of 4 and very few 3. Some routes will have to keep 3 car trains such as Limerick shuttle and other lines such as Kerry mid week are fine with 3 car trains and schedules tend to be made with a set or 2 out of action for unexpected events. Rosslare and Sligo will keep some 3 car sets. Portlaoise commuter will have 2 sets.

Keeping two full 6 piece sets will allow 4 extra 3 car sets and there will be demand for 6 piece sets on the network.

funnyname · 15-09-2013 9:48pm

What about all the carriages parked up, shouldn't they be put to use?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0125/364417-train-carriages/

LXFlyer · 15-09-2013 10:43pm

funnyname wrote: »

What about all the carriages parked up, shouldn't they be put to use?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0125/364417-train-carriages/

They are being used - the sets are being rotated in and out of use.

end of the road · 16-09-2013 5:43pm

lxflyer wrote: »

They are being used - the sets are being rotated in and out of use.

shame their not doing that with the 26/27/28s, no excuse for the 2700s to be stored probably facing the breakers, they were working well in limerick, and thats from someone who suffered the horrid things on the rosslare line

corktina · 16-09-2013 6:05pm

lxflyer wrote: »

They are being used - the sets are being rotated in and out of use.

so, how many coaches are out of service at any given time?

LXFlyer · 16-09-2013 6:15pm

corktina wrote: »

so, how many coaches are out of service at any given time?

I don't know exact numbers, but they are being constantly rotated. Remember also that you will have maintenance spares as well so it's difficult to tell.

Captain Chaos · 16-09-2013 6:25pm

Well if it's anything like the DARTs they are not be being rotated in and out of service that often. For at least the last 6 weeks LHB DART sets 1, 38 and 40 have not turned a wheel. 1 and 40 are coupled with 38 beside them and 40s LED tail lights are left on constantly.

corktina · 16-09-2013 6:50pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't know exact numbers, but they are being constantly rotated. Remember also that you will have maintenance spares as well so it's difficult to tell.

anyone want to guesstimate? would it be 30 coaches perhaps?

LXFlyer · 16-09-2013 7:21pm

No it is not 30 coaches - that would be 10 3-car sets.

There is nothing like that being stored on rotation - it's more like 4 sets.

n0brain3r · 29-10-2013 1:28pm

Pretty sure I just spotted a 6+ car ICR passing Sallins for Newbridge but it wasn't made up of 3+4 or 3+6 it only had 2 driving cars both where manned. Anyone know was this another config being tested ?

dowlingm · 29-10-2013 2:55pm

n0brain3r wrote: »

Pretty sure I just spotted a 6+ car ICR passing Sallins for Newbridge but it wasn't made up of 3+4 or 3+6 it only had 2 driving cars both where manned. Anyone know was this another config being tested ?

That's supposedly not possible because of no B1 car...

dublinman1990 · 12-11-2013 4:38pm

I'd see that the ICR reconfiguration has begun recently on the Connolly to Rosslare line.

From within this past week some of the ICR should be configured now as 4 carriage trains in the mornings to be then increased to 5 carriage trains in the evenings.

On Monday of this week; I've seen a 4 carriage 22k train to Rosslare passing Seapoint at around 10am. The trains appearance on one side that morning looked filthy dirty with one of the additional carriages added to it only having the new logo not matching with the rest of the train only having it's old logo.

I know that the rebranding of the ICR's will take time as the months go on as IE will need to have money & the time to carry that work.

Also later on that day; there appeared to be a 5 carriage 22k passing Blackrock on it's way to Rosslare at around 5pm. The difference was that the 22k unit at the time looked nice & clean on the exterior as it may gotten a new repaint with new logos for definite.

Although I can't give you any train numbers as they weren't written down somewhere.

TheBandicoot · 12-11-2013 5:57pm

5 car sets? There aren't any of those, must have been a 4 car.

Intercity capacity reconfiguration

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