rant on this country's failure.

Collie D · 04-03-2008 12:50pm

Femmy wrote: »

i come out better financially by working part time, than i would if i worked full time. - go figure.

Yes.....?

jester77 · 04-03-2008 1:03pm

Collie D wrote: »

Corporal punishment, eh? Violence upon children to prevent future crimes? I know if any teacher had laid a hand on me as a child they'd have taken a table to the mouth

I wouldn't call it violence, I would call it instilling some respect into them. Whenever I got out of line when I was younger I was quick to get a smack from my teacher or parents. It made me think twice about doing it again. Kids now get away with small things and gradually move onto bigger things. These kids don't just wake up one morning and go out assaulting people, it's progressive and this is what needs to be stopped.

SimpleSam06 · 04-03-2008 1:18pm

Hellm0 wrote: »

Well I concur that the types of crimes that are being commited are escalating in severity in relation to the types of crimes that would have been seen say 50 years ago in Ireland

Maybe not as much as you think. I remember back in the 80s there was a period of what can only be called gang warfare in Galway, until the gardaí destroyed it, which produced some pieces of work like you've never seen. One of the refinements to streetfighting that appeared was strapping two stanley knives together so that the cut couldn't be stitched.

Although without a doubt society has changed in the last decade, for better or for worse, a good lot of that is that things are becoming more visible. Back in the 60s and 70s there were still the same shower of animals making life hard for everyone, you just didn't have youtube to give them a national audience.

Collie D · 04-03-2008 1:25pm

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Although without a doubt society has changed in the last decade, for better or for worse, a good lot of that is that things are becoming more visible. Back in the 60s and 70s there were still the same shower of animals making life hard for everyone, you just didn't have youtube to give them a national audience.

Very interesting point.

ScumLord · 04-03-2008 1:33pm

Over crowding would be a major factor. When over crowding occurs with any animal violence is never far behind but with us I'm curtain it's all down to the loss of community.

The worst thing is we should have known these things at the beginning of the economic boom as it's happened over and over again in many other countries but greed and selfishness got in the way. I blame the government completely for it, they where in charge and they should have done something to ensure we didn't stupidly go down the same dead ends as other county's. Now we've squandered the boom and are stuck in this position.

SimpleSam06 · 04-03-2008 1:39pm

ScumLord wrote: »

Over crowding would be a major factor.

Ireland is number 146 in terms of population density globally.

AngryHippie · 04-03-2008 1:40pm

I've made this point a few times on boards before, but does anyone else think that the very concept of a suburb is contributing to the problem by reducing personal space and pride/identity with the locale ?

On the drugs issue, there are two sides to it, Yes drug dealers exacerbate the problem and contribute hugely to violent crime, Yes some drug addicts resort to violent crime & theft to fund their habits..... BUT.... Drug dealing is the most lucrative career for someone with no qualifications, the risks to life and limb are not as high as we would like to think For more on alternative approaches to drug gangs see the Boston Gun project,we may find success somewhere between the BGP and zero tolerance. Drug addicts are only stealing and mugging to pay the dealers, If the govt. were to round up all the Heroin addicts in the country and offer them free gear and a place to live in return for commitment to a program to put their lives back together, it might have a higher success rate than demonizing them and making them out to be a scumbag scourge of our society, its an illness, its time to treat it as such.

Sexual assault and Rape represent the most worrying statistic in this discussion, as it destroys people lives and personalities. They deserve the full wrath of the law. Let the victims choose the punishment for a change.

ScumLord · 04-03-2008 1:56pm

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Ireland is number 146 in terms of population density globally.

But we're still more overcrowded than it has been in the past. Just look at any of the big estates in this country, there's just 100s of houses with nothing in between. Most don't know or talk to their neighbours. Unlike your typical town where you have more space and know your neighbours.

humberklog · 04-03-2008 2:02pm

ScumLord wrote: »

Over crowding would be a major factor. When over crowding occurs with any animal violence is never far behind but with us I'm curtain it's all down to the loss of community.

Nonsense. Hong kong and singapore are densely populated and are safe cities. Somalia has acres of space and is a death trap. There is more reported crime now. Many reasons...mobile phones,sense of community,preciousness. If you were to walk from parnell st. through grafton st. and up to the top of camden st. in the 80's you'd have seen far more random acts of violence,drunkeness and aggressive junkies. If this doesn't sound right to daft people with flower tinted glasses then get on the last bus home. On the whole these days they're safe. In the 80's the last bus home was mental,mental chicken oriental. Streets are brighter,cleaner and safer. A lot done more to do travis.

humberklog · 04-03-2008 2:06pm

ScumLord wrote: »

But we're still more overcrowded than it has been in the past. Just look at any of the big estates in this country, there's just 100s of houses with nothing in between. Most don't know or talk to their neighbours. Unlike your typical town where you have more space and know your neighbours.

Did you get a bang on the head in get trapped in some sorta swedish social utopian experiment? The amount of people that've come into this country wouldn't dent our mass of space.

humberklog · 04-03-2008 2:29pm

Our percieved lack of cohesion and social decline i say stems further back in our psyche. A lack(bordering on fear)of science,a dearth of true quality in the arts and an insular society bred for a good 60years after independance on a conspiracy of silence leading to the wierd state where the plebs actually believed the emperors were wearing new clothes. This place is getting better though. The influx of the international community will start to rise our sluggish cultural boat.

AngryHippie · 04-03-2008 2:38pm

humberklog wrote: »

Nonsense. Hong kong and singapore are densely populated and are safe cities. Somalia has acres of space and is a death trap. There is more reported crime now. Many reasons...mobile phones,sense of community,preciousness. If you were to walk from parnell st. through grafton st. and up to the top of camden st. in the 80's you'd have seen far more random acts of violence,drunkeness and aggressive junkies. If this doesn't sound right to daft people with flower tinted glasses then get on the last bus home. On the whole these days they're safe. In the 80's the last bus home was mental,mental chicken oriental. Streets are brighter,cleaner and safer. A lot done more to do travis.

Really comparing like with like there. Somalia is a war zone to be fair.

I agree overall things are better, but I don't think the victim of a sexual assault will agree with you.

humberklog · 04-03-2008 2:46pm

A victim wouldn't? Why so? Sexual assaults are reported now. They weren't 15year ago. It was far more rampant and accepted in the not long past. As for somalia it was always lethal.

humberklog · 04-03-2008 2:50pm

Kiev,ukraine a vastness of space with a high chance of getting 'turned-over'. I was twice and rental car totalled. Police were eh eh hmm,enjoying the space i think.

ScumLord · 04-03-2008 4:27pm

humberklog wrote: »

Did you get a bang on the head in get trapped in some sorta swedish social utopian experiment? The amount of people that've come into this country wouldn't dent our mass of space.

I never mentioned people coming to this country. Big estates have popped up in almost every town/city in Ireland, allot of people have moved into the cities for work. In my own town two estates with 40 -60 houses in them have popped up, the developers stopped short of building open areas for kids to play in. Estates that I've been into in Galway are no better, their just a sprawl of houses.

Our government put no effort into planing these sprawls. Just look at the mess they made of clairegalway.

codewarrior · 04-03-2008 5:07pm

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Read someplace that Bush has been scraping the barrell trying to find recruits for his Iraq War, and has been overlooking the backgrounds of many of them to fill the ranks. Recruiting offices in LA's gangland?

It's a well known fact in the states that recruitment offices for our armed forces can be found in the poorest and most down-trodden areas. Also . . . a subject of much controversy is the military's blatant skew in their advertising towards minorities, specifically African Americans. Though, a recent study shows that this may no longer be the case (http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda05-08.cfm), granted this study was performed by one of the most conservative think tanks in the colonies. This study still admits that African Americans are still over-represented in the modern military, and I believe it is flawed as it uses the mean income of the families of recruits and not the median income. A few hyper-rich families with children graduating from our military academies really skews the mean income towards the middle. Another survey (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/03/AR2005110302528_pf.html) of the military shows that the median income of Army recruits is somewhere around 26K (USD) a year, which is substantially lower than the median income of the US (44K USD).

Terry · 04-03-2008 5:23pm

Razzle wrote: »

What's happening in Holland that's so much worse than what we're seeing in Ireland?

Drug tourists attracting the scum of the earth to the place.
People go over for a few joints and are then hassled on the streets by scum peddling their wares. Then a few of them decide o buy some of the stuff and it grows from there.
The Netherlands isn't the rose tinted utopia that it seems to be from behind that haze of smoke.

0ubliette wrote: »

I dont think theres even the most blinkered of boards users on here who could argue that the place isnt getting worse. You only need to take a walk through town even on a saturday afternoon to see just how bad its getting. Gangs of junkies congregating in the alley next to wynns hotel, gypsies begging on every street corner, drunks abusing passers by (and this was what i saw last saturday afternoon, it wasnt even nighttime). The city is going to the dogs...and sadly all the bitching about it on boards wont do a blind bit of difference. The only thing that will help change it is if we get a proper government elected who actually have the balls to tackle the problems in our own country before looking to send ****ing peace envoys to bumfcuk, Egypt or wherever the lastest humanitarian crisis is. I dont mean to sound bad but ****in Bertie on his trips to south africa makes my blood boil, weve enough problems of our own here that need sorting out before you try and sort out the rest of the worlds ills.

Meh.
Dublin hasn't changed much since the 80's.

jester77 wrote: »

Bring back corporal punishment. What harm did it do to anyone who grew up knowing that if they stepped out of line they would get a slap from their parents or teacher? It made them think twice before acting, that's what. Nowadays children have free reign at school, at home and out in public. Teachers can't touch them, parents can't touch them and because they are minors in the eyes of the law they get away with most of their actions.

Indeed.
Spare the rod and spoil the child.
Look at what happened.

topper75 · 05-03-2008 11:47am

Collie D wrote: »

Corporal punishment, eh? Violence upon children to prevent future crimes? I know if any teacher had laid a hand on me as a child they'd have taken a table to the mouth

So, you are against corporal punishment... what do you propose instead? Because for my money - that is what happened - they took away corporal punishment and replaced it with nothing else (and all because just a few teachers abused the privilege). We are simply reaping what we have sown.

Whatever about school, the idea of a parent not being able to slap their child is ludicrous in the extreme.

CCTV in classrooms I say - and any clear misdemeanour = clear corporal punishment. Maybe small fine taken directly from parent's salary/welfare payment as well to reinforce.

stevoman · 05-03-2008 12:07pm

more prisons, harsher sentences. thats what i say!

calahans · 05-03-2008 12:19pm

More education is needed, not more prisons.

If you look at the dark ages or the industrial revolution they had an awful existence. We are getting used to living in cities and it will take time but I think that progress is in the right direction.

The government can help by better planning. With the protracted death of religion we need community spirit to take its place.

ScumLord · 05-03-2008 12:23pm

calahans wrote: »

The government can help by better planning. With the protracted death of religion we need community spirit to take its place.

Agreed. These people don't give a **** about there comunity because they're comunity doesn't give a **** about them.

topper75 · 05-03-2008 2:24pm

Oh yeah? How exactly does my community show it loves me every morning I get up? How was the screwdriver merchant treated differently?

Look, to say that these people's behaviour is excused/explained by their background is simply a slap in the face to all people who also grew up in underprivileged circumstances and actually behave decently. The background thing is simply a copout.

faceman · 05-03-2008 2:34pm

to all the moany holes, what have you ever done about? Do you take to the streets in protest like in france? Do you lobby your local td's about issues?

i think not.

I bet you dont ever return a meal in a restaurant if it is served cold.

ScumLord · 05-03-2008 3:34pm

topper75 wrote: »

Oh yeah? How exactly does my community show it loves me every morning I get up? How was the screwdriver merchant treated differently?

Look, to say that these people's behaviour is excused/explained by their background is simply a slap in the face to all people who also grew up in underprivileged circumstances and actually behave decently. The background thing is simply a copout.

It's not a cop out, true people should see the errors of there ways. But like any animal they learn how to act a certain way and get stuck in that rutt. I think they all need to be re-educated, if that's not going to happen then there's no point in locking them up at the states expense and making them worse.

calahans · 05-03-2008 3:58pm

topper75 wrote: »

Oh yeah? How exactly does my community show it loves me every morning I get up? How was the screwdriver merchant treated differently?

Look, to say that these people's behaviour is excused/explained by their background is simply a slap in the face to all people who also grew up in underprivileged circumstances and actually behave decently. The background thing is simply a copout.

Your ideas are outdated. You want to treat the effects and not the causes. Prison works doesnt it? I think in the US they have 1% of adults in jail. Is this the safest place??

I dont know the answer but retribution doesnt work.

gillyfromlyre · 05-03-2008 4:06pm

Collie D wrote: »

No, I just get fed up with the constant hype about it. Are you afraid to leave your house? If no, then the country is hardly on the verge of collapse. If yes, then you meed to grow some balls, man

The country is the way it is because of the "collie d's" who just don't want to hear about it. Whats a 80 year old woman going to do if shes afraid to leave her house because of the gangs of roaming scum to be seen countrywide,grow some balls!!. If I was a vet i'd put you down

Rob_l · 05-03-2008 4:08pm

andyl222 wrote: »

Yeah I did misread what i'd written and corrected accordingly, and I did read in a report in the Independent recently the rape figure was much higher than that. Alas it may be that they lumped sexual assaults in with rape, which I'm sure you'll agree Collie is horrendous, imagine all those guys who just sexually assaulted women being tarred with the same brush as rapists. A crime in and of itself....

That is typical media scaremongering

Firstly aren't more rapes being reported now than would have in the past were the victim would have been shamed by such a thing
also look at all the instances of child abuse that went unrecorded in them years that have now come to light.

I remember reading an article which stated that children are now safer than they ever were back in the 30' 40's 50's and so on but that the media now hypes instances creating a culture of fear.

andyl222 · 05-03-2008 5:23pm

Rob_l wrote: »

That is typical media scaremongering

Firstly aren't more rapes being reported now than would have in the past were the victim would have been shamed by such a thing
also look at all the instances of child abuse that went unrecorded in them years that have now come to light.

I remember reading an article which stated that children are now safer than they ever were back in the 30' 40's 50's and so on but that the media now hypes instances creating a culture of fear.

I'd be dubious of the nature of your argument, because rapes are now reported more means that the figure of 300+ rapes a year is acceptable??? What I was trying to convey is the fact that there is it would seem an increase in violent crimes and crimes of a sexual nature, and the severity of said crimes has increased exponentially. Regardless of whether the crime statistic increase is based around a previous inability to report crimes or not should seem redundant,as dealing with the figures as they stand should be the issue.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-03-2008 5:28pm

Won't somebody PLEASE think of the children?!

Hellm0 · 05-03-2008 5:30pm

andyl222 wrote: »

I'd be dubious of the nature of your argument, because rapes are now reported more means that the figure of 300+ rapes a year is acceptable??? What I was trying to convey is the fact that there is it would seem an increase in violent crimes and crimes of a sexual nature, and the severity of said crimes has increased exponentially. Regardless of whether the crime statistic increase is based around a previous inability to report crimes or not should seem redundant,as dealing with the figures as they stand should be the issue.

Andy crime is a part of society, obviously no crime is "acceptable" however there is a point where if we are to try to stop any more crime we must all sacrifice mutual freedoms. There is a balance between shared freedoms and acceptable criminal activity. Just the way it is, shades of gray man. Be happy our balance is more in favor of personal freedom and we still manage to keep a low crime rate.

topper75 · 05-03-2008 5:34pm

ScumLord wrote: »

It's not a cop out, true people should see the errors of there ways. But like any animal they learn how to act a certain way and get stuck in that rutt. I think they all need to be re-educated, if that's not going to happen then there's no point in locking them up at the states expense and making them worse.

What? You want to appease them somehow in case we "make them worse". These guys were no worse off than me growing up - they got the same schooling opportunities and healthcare access. They chose a different path - to blame the 'community' for that is a joke. It seems that asking the perpatrator to be responsible is too simple an explanation for some posters.

topper75 · 05-03-2008 5:38pm

calahans wrote: »

Your ideas are outdated. You want to treat the effects and not the causes. Prison works doesnt it? I think in the US they have 1% of adults in jail. Is this the safest place??

I dont know the answer but retribution doesnt work.

I'm all for treating the causes - the cause here is the perpetrator abdicated his responsibility, chose to conveniently disregard the principles of right and wrong, and thought it was cool to stab somebody who wouldn't buy him drink in the head with a screwdriver. Any attempt to blame wider society is laughable. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. God help us if we start to see it otherwise.

Hellm0 · 05-03-2008 5:43pm

topper75 wrote: »

What? You want to appease them somehow in case we "make them worse". These guys were no worse off than me growing up - they got the same schooling opportunities and healthcare access. They chose a different path - to blame the 'community' for that is a joke. It seems that asking the perpatrator to be responsible is too simple an explanation for some posters.

Individual punishment is pointless in the long term, putting one person in jail at a time helps no one. Fixing the source of the problem is what is important here, lack of education, poverty and hopelessness.
Don't blame the fire for burning down your house, blame yourself for not putting it out when it was still small.

ScumLord · 05-03-2008 5:53pm

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Won't somebody PLEASE think of the children?!

Dude. That's sick.

andyl222 · 05-03-2008 5:53pm

Hellm0 wrote: »

Individual punishment is pointless in the long term, putting one person in jail at a time helps no one. Fixing the source of the problem is what is important here, lack of education, poverty and hopelessness.
Don't blame the fire for burning down your house, blame yourself for not putting it out when it was still small.

I can see the point of what you're saying, but to be honest I reckon that if the Irish Education system became 'COMPLETELY' free, and there was a scheme for school books, uniforms and all the other expenses incurred, so that the parents didn't have to shell out a single euro for their child's education, we'd still have this problem with youth crime etc. It's not about accessibility to education, it is about their peer groups thinking that bottling people and stabbing people is a cool and noble endeavour. It is the attitudes of these groups that spreads like a virus and creates an increasing epidemic of random violence.

Hellm0 · 05-03-2008 7:09pm

andyl222 wrote: »

I can see the point of what you're saying, but to be honest I reckon that if the Irish Education system became 'COMPLETELY' free, and there was a scheme for school books, uniforms and all the other expenses incurred, so that the parents didn't have to shell out a single euro for their child's education, we'd still have this problem with youth crime etc. It's not about accessibility to education, it is about their peer groups thinking that bottling people and stabbing people is a cool and noble endeavour. It is the attitudes of these groups that spreads like a virus and creates an increasing epidemic of random violence.

You hit the nail on the head there, education is not the ONLY issue. Cultural and peer group issues are also a major contributor to this kind of behavior.
This stems from a "ghetto" mentality which is bred in poorer areas. This was in turn caused by the social housing initiatives which resulted in areas like Ballymun, Finglas and Blanchardstown becoming the warzones they used to be. Putting reams of poor people into essentially free accomodation in an area without the employment OR educational facilities to cope with their needs results in some very bad behavior.
Thankfully that is being changed somewhat with the new system of social housing however the exemption which developers get to substitute where they provide housing simply wont work. People need to integrate and in order to prevent the victim/ghetto complex from re-emerging efforts must be made not only to house the needy in appropriate areas but also to give them incentive to integrate themselves with the community they are placed in. Of course a quicker way to do this is to keep them in their community of birth, assuming that this community has sufficiently progressed out of the ghetto mentality(Blanchardstown being a prime example, young people from Blanchardstown now have a reason to want to stay there, its a great area.)

Terry · 05-03-2008 7:29pm

Cane across the hand in front of the class mates.

Right, you have a bully. He's the little hard man prick who picks on the skinny bespectacled kid.

Get that little fúck up on a stage in front of the whole school and give him six lashes across the back of the hand.
He's gonna cry his eyes out and you can be guaranteed that he won't be bullying that kid any more.

If he does, then just do it again.
He'll learn eventually.

This way cuts the abuse that happens behind closed doors and also embarrasses the bully.

AngryHippie · 06-03-2008 12:04am

topper75 wrote: »

I'm all for treating the causes - the cause here is the perpetrator abdicated his responsibility, chose to conveniently disregard the principles of right and wrong, and thought it was cool to stab somebody who wouldn't buy him drink in the head with a screwdriver.

If that genuinely was what happened, then there is something seriously ****ed in the lads head, to be fair, thats a long way from accpetable reality, and thats where that lad needs to be put. Penal Colony, Leper Colony, Martian Colony, Chain Gang, Dundrum, wherever, That chap has no place in society if he can murder someone in cold blood and try to say he did it to impress his peers.....Thats the highest degree of bollocks and no judge in the land should accept that as any form of defence. Straight jacket. padded cell, Rest of his Life without parole. Just to set an example in case some other ****ing loony likes the sound of it. Actually he deserves some sort of experimental clockwork orange treatment if they are the genuine reasons he is using for ending someone elses life. **** that.

Like the sound of Terry's idea as a preventative measure:D

Tuesday_Girl · 06-03-2008 5:43pm

Terry wrote: »

Drug tourists attracting the scum of the earth to the place.
People go over for a few joints and are then hassled on the streets by scum peddling their wares. Then a few of them decide o buy some of the stuff and it grows from there.
The Netherlands isn't the rose tinted utopia that it seems to be from behind that haze of smoke.

There is definitely a big drugs problem in Amsterdam, as there is in Dublin, however the random violent attacks and the level of anti-social behavior we see here as a result of our binge-drinking culture are not evident in Amsterdam or in many other European cities. I feel much safer walking through Amsterdam at night than through Dublin.

ScumLord · 06-03-2008 5:55pm

Terry wrote: »

Cane across the hand in front of the class mates.

Never worked on us in my school. You don't dob people in, the "teachers pet" would just become more of an outcast. It's a mentality that has carried through to old age in this town. People won't report things to the Guards and prefer to sort things out themselves.

Although having said that bulling was not common in my school growing up. I would have been prone to bulling anywhere else being the chunky kid, but I still remember the day the popular kids in school saw me sitting on a wall and made me come over and join in the game of soccer.

DublinWriter · 06-03-2008 7:36pm

Again and again on here, I see more people bemoaning the fact that we don't have the kind of US-style justice system that dishes out harsher sentences.

Recent statistics show that 1 in 100 of the population of the US are currently in jail. If you think harsher sentences will solve the problem then you need to ask yourself is the US becoming a safer country in terms of violent crime?

I think the real problem lies in the social underclass that we are allowing to fester in our society; a bunch of people who have nothing to lose and do not fear the consequences of their anti-social and violent behaviour.

The answer to the problem isn't a simple one. We need more left-leaning social-inclusion programmes in conjunction with a right-leaning policy of our judiciary handing down tougher custodial sentences dictated by a minimum sentence rather than a maximum sentence.

Such a compound approach would never be adopted as it would please neither the left or right. This in itself is a pity as the solutions to complex questions usually requires complex answers.

galwayrush · 06-03-2008 9:39pm

We should have stayed part of the UK until the Motorways were built, well they did give us the Railways, i reckon we would have had Motorways by the 50's Here we are the (envy of Europe :rolleyes:) and no two cities are linked by Motorways.

utick · 07-03-2008 1:17am

Hellm0 wrote: »

Individual punishment is pointless in the long term, putting one person in jail at a time helps no one. Fixing the source of the problem is what is important here, lack of education, poverty and hopelessness.
Don't blame the fire for burning down your house, blame yourself for not putting it out when it was still small.

to be hones,t with the irish justice system only the scummiest of the scummiest ever see jail time, we regularly hear about people walking the streets with 30-40 convictions so how many chances do you propose we give these people before they must be punished

rant on this country's failure.

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