Irish slang names etc for the international market!

Roisy7 · 20-01-2013 3:10pm #1

Hello all,

Was chatting to some writer pals of mine yesterday and they were saying that if (long way in the future) I get my novel accepted by a publisher, I will have to change all references to the gardai to police, for the international market.

I have read Irish novels where this has been done before, and it felt false, especially in courtroom scenes etc. I want the novel to ring true as possible, and people (especially in the country) say guards, not police.

I mentioned writers like Kevin Barry or Patrick McCabe who write in the Irish idiom, and they said, well they're well established.

I know I'm far from their level, but I don't want to compromise on this either. Personally, I like novels with a strong sense of place and location, whether it's Africa or South America or France or America. They might not be places I know anything about but that's all the better.

What does ye think?

pickarooney · 20-01-2013 5:08pm

Once it's clear from the first context who the gardaí are you shouldn't have to change it anywhere. Bear in mind that in many countries there are multiple levels of police who deal with various areas of crime.

EileenG · 20-01-2013 7:57pm

Use Gardai etc as long as it is clear what you are talking about.

The problem is the Irishisms you are not aware of. Kitchen press, footpath, councillors, going for a pint, giving out, bold children, nappies, getting the messages, craic, slagging, Darndale facelift, pub, TD, Senator, stuff like that.

However, I'd work hard to make sure the Irishisms you use are carefully chosen and obvious from the context. Don't insist on writing in the venacular and then getting pissy because no-one outside the country can understand it.

pickarooney · 20-01-2013 8:30pm

Pub and senator? You can't be serious!

echo beach · 20-01-2013 8:46pm

pickarooney wrote: »

Pub and senator? You can't be serious!

Senator would make most non-Irish people think of the American version, a powerful politician who may be the next president, rather than the Irish version, which is... what exactly?

Toasterspark · 20-01-2013 10:44pm

Our Senators are people that are taken from the unelected scrapheap and put into lucrative, highly-paid jobs so they can discuss... stuff.

Scortho · 20-01-2013 10:50pm

Although I have no interest in writing and little in fiction (sorry!) a lot of books that use local language that is published internationally have a glossary at the back. If your story was set in say the west of Ireland, it sets the scene more to call it a sheebeen than a pub.
Most books break the home market, before being published in say the states. It'd be very difficult to break the irish market, if your book is set in Ireland and using American slang.
Best of luck op with your book and I hope it gets published!

EileenG · 20-01-2013 11:38pm

Time to get real, folks.

If you are writing a story aimed at the home market, then fine, have lots of Irish-isms. But be aware that your story is very unlikely ever to be sold outside Ireland.

It's not just a matter of local colour, most non-Irish readers will not understand what you are saying, and will be convinced your book is full of mistakes. The average reader or reviewer will not bother looking up a glossary, she will just put the book down and pick up one she can understand without having to look up half of it.

Remember that there are only a handful of publishers in Ireland. If you want your story to be taken seriously by any publisher outside the island, it has to be an a form that an editor can read without a glossary. Cut the casual Irish-isms, and make sure local references are clear from the context.

Remember, it's not up to the reader to work out what you are trying to say, it's up to you to write a story that they will enjoy reading.

Brian Lighthouse · 21-01-2013 12:04am

When I was reading one of Niamh O`Connor`s books her protagonist was a Dublin Cop who "gunned her engine" and used other such "God-Awful" phrases.
It turned me off her book as she was out in Inchicore saying this.
Perhaps I`ll pick it up again, and pretend its about Dublin, Ohio. All the phrases and cliches will fit perfectly then.
Can we do that? I`m sure there are figures of speech in Ohio that are not understood in South Carolina, Limerick or London.
I`m not criticising Niamh`s work, however, I am saying that I dislike the overuse of cliches. I think her publisher might be calling the shots there though.

What does "gunning the engine" mean?
Brian

pickarooney · 21-01-2013 10:05am

echo beach wrote: »

Senator would make most non-Irish people think of the American version, a powerful politician who may be the next president, rather than the Irish version, which is... what exactly?

Same thing, only for a smaller country. Current president Michael D. Higgins was a senator, as was Mary Robinson.

EileenG wrote: »

Time to get real, folks.

If you are writing a story aimed at the home market, then fine, have lots of Irish-isms. But be aware that your story is very unlikely ever to be sold outside Ireland.

It's not just a matter of local colour, most non-Irish readers will not understand what you are saying, and will be convinced your book is full of mistakes. The average reader or reviewer will not bother looking up a glossary, she will just put the book down and pick up one she can understand without having to look up half of it.

Remember that there are only a handful of publishers in Ireland. If you want your story to be taken seriously by any publisher outside the island, it has to be an a form that an editor can read without a glossary. Cut the casual Irish-isms, and make sure local references are clear from the context.

Remember, it's not up to the reader to work out what you are trying to say, it's up to you to write a story that they will enjoy reading.

I think you're overstating it a little or are referring to specific readership markets. If you're writing derivative, homogenised pulp for the genre markets who run away screaming if the story doesn't follow the standard algorithm, that's all true but if you're writing for other genres, or non-genres, you run the opposite risk of appealing to nobody if you cut out anything which may confuse somebody somewhere.

Scortho wrote: »

If your story was set in say the west of Ireland, it sets the scene more to call it a sheebeen than a pub.

Even as an Irish reader 'shebeen' suggest Gauteng township more than Galway village to me.

Scortho · 21-01-2013 10:19am

pickarooney wrote: »

Even as an Irish reader 'shebeen' suggest Gauteng township more than Galway village to me.

Shebeen to me suggests a turn of the last century pub, the likes of which was seen in Synge's playboy of the western world. Is it not fair to say that when the story is set dictates the language? If it was set today in the west of Ireland a sheebeen doesn't really make sense. Set one hundred years ago however and that was what you'd be walking into.

echo beach · 21-01-2013 10:48pm

pickarooney wrote: »

Same thing, only for a smaller country. Current president Michael D. Higgins was a senator, as was Mary Robinson.

Which reminds me that 'president' is another word that has a different meaning in America and in Ireland.:)

EileenG · 21-01-2013 10:54pm

pickarooney wrote: »

I think you're overstating it a little or are referring to specific readership markets. If you're writing derivative, homogenised pulp for the genre markets who run away screaming if the story doesn't follow the standard algorithm, that's all true but if you're writing for other genres, or non-genres, you run the opposite risk of appealing to nobody if you cut out anything which may confuse somebody somewhere.

Hard experience here. Put a lot of Irishisms into a story and you'll get rejected. That's reality. Most of the time, you'll get a standard rejection letter and won't know it's because the editor who read it had no idea what a kitchen press was.

Been there, done that.

I'm not suggesting that you write pulp. But taking a moral stance that you are going to write in a dialect that most of the English speakers of the world will not understand is stupid. Write the best book you can, and just as you would make sure your spelling and punctuation was standard and correct, make sure that your use of English is also standard and correct.

If you want to give the story a local flavour, then confine it to dialogue.

Roisy7 · 22-01-2013 5:03pm

Hey guys thanks for the replies. It came up because one of us said that she never stated anywhere in her book that it was set in Ireland, and I said "well, the guards turn up on page one of mine". That's how the conversation started. Just on a few points.

EileenG wrote: »

Use Gardai etc as long as it is clear what you are talking about.

The problem is the Irishisms you are not aware of. Kitchen press, footpath, councillors, going for a pint, giving out, bold children, nappies, getting the messages, craic, slagging, Darndale facelift, pub, TD, Senator, stuff like that.

Thanks for the good advice Eileen, just bolded some that really stuck out at me. Nappies, footpath, councillors, going for a pint and pub are UK terms also, and being a big fan of a lot British writers, it strikes me that they are not expected to change their terms for the US market, or are they?

Something like Darndale facelift I would never use (I don't even know what that is, I presume it's the same as a Croydon facelift?) because I think those type of terms are never as funny on the page and date really quickly.

EileenG wrote: »

It's not just a matter of local colour, most non-Irish readers will not understand what you are saying, and will be convinced your book is full of mistakes. The average reader or reviewer will not bother looking up a glossary, she will just put the book down and pick up one she can understand without having to look up half of it.

Remember, it's not up to the reader to work out what you are trying to say, it's up to you to write a story that they will enjoy reading.

I can totally understand where you're coming from, I would never want to annoy the reader. But is there not a point which the reader will tolerate some local flavour? For example, if I'm reading a book set in Italy and someone mentions the caribineri, I would take it in the spirit it's intended, and be glad the author knows something about the place they're writing about?

For example, in fantasy and sci-fi, the reader is expected to undertake a whole new set of rules, logic and occasionally language for the world of the novel, why not for something set elsewhere in the real world, especially just for one or two words?

Personally, I like reading things set in other countries, and the more realistic the better....

Brian Lighthouse wrote: »

When I was reading one of Niamh O`Connor`s books her protagonist was a Dublin Cop who "gunned her engine" and used other such "God-Awful" phrases.

What does "gunning the engine" mean?
Brian

I presume she turned the key in the ignition?! :P

I've never read any Niamh O'Connor but I remember reading Tana French's debut, which was set within the garda force. The whole way through they were referred to as police. By criminals, by the gardai themselves, by the court system. That rang very false, especially as I have heard that a trial can fall on something as simple as a guard not ticking a box on a warrant; imagine the field day a lawyer would have if someone was arrested by the Irish 'police'?!

pickarooney wrote: »

I think you're overstating it a little or are referring to specific readership markets. If you're writing derivative, homogenised pulp for the genre markets who run away screaming if the story doesn't follow the standard algorithm, that's all true but if you're writing for other genres, or non-genres, you run the opposite risk of appealing to nobody if you cut out anything which may confuse somebody somewhere.

Even as an Irish reader 'shebeen' suggest Gauteng township more than Galway village to me.

Scortho wrote: »

Shebeen to me suggests a turn of the last century pub, the likes of which was seen in Synge's playboy of the western world. Is it not fair to say that when the story is set dictates the language? If it was set today in the west of Ireland a sheebeen doesn't really make sense. Set one hundred years ago however and that was what you'd be walking into.

Pickarooney, I don't have literary pretensions but I like to think I'm not writing the standard blockbuster genre book. It's not the sort of thing I read or am interested in.

Yeah, something like shebeen is an older term, and a lot of the Irishisms that appear in books of Irish slang are gone with the ark or were never really used at all IMO...

For example, Scortho you mentioned Synge, whose work is probably incomprehensible to anyone outside Ireland. My book is set in 21st century Ireland, the protagonist is a young woman. People of that generation speak standard English more than any other in Ireland's history. I'm not looking to write Finnegans Wake, I just don't want my story to take place in some transatlantic twilight zone...

pickarooney · 22-01-2013 7:29pm

Yeah, I seriously can't imagine how someone who can't work out what a footpath is could read a fantasy novel where every second noun is something the author has made up.

EileenG · 23-01-2013 12:10am

pickarooney wrote: »

Yeah, I seriously can't imagine how someone who can't work out what a footpath is could read a fantasy novel where every second noun is something the author has made up.

Different genre.

Antilles · 23-01-2013 12:17am

Roisy7 wrote:

The whole way through they were referred to as police. By criminals, by the gardai themselves, by the court system. That rang very false, especially as I have heard that a trial can fall on something as simple as a guard not ticking a box on a warrant; imagine the field day a lawyer would have if someone was arrested by the Irish 'police'?!

Could that not be solved by having a sentence right at the start of the book explaining the term?

"He had been a member of the Gardai, the Irish police force, for ten years."

That would add local colour (or color!) and avoid confusion at the same time.

Roisy7 · 23-01-2013 10:35am

Antilles wrote: »

Could that not be solved by having a sentence right at the start of the book explaining the term?

"He had been a member of the Gardai, the Irish police force, for ten years."

That would add local colour (or color!) and avoid confusion at the same time.

Yes that sort of thing I was thinking of

pickarooney · 23-01-2013 12:22pm

EileenG wrote: »

Different genre.

Different to what? The OP never said what genre he/she was writing in.

EileenG · 23-01-2013 12:36pm

pickarooney wrote: »

Different to what? The OP never said what genre he/she was writing in.

You said fantasy. I was assuming from the OP's post that he was writing Irish Lit fic.

Roisy7 · 23-01-2013 4:12pm

EileenG wrote: »

You said fantasy. I was assuming from the OP's post that he was writing Irish Lit fic.

She is writing something along the lines of Irish lit fic, you're right Eileen

It's not a crime book, or fantasy. I don't know what it is tbh....

davyjose · 24-01-2013 3:29am

Roisy7 wrote: »

Yes that sort of thing I was thinking of

I wouldn't go that route. If the Gardai are referenced for what they do then it will be apparent. just write your novel how it pleases you. If you try to satisfy some unknown foreign market I guarantee your novel will be worse off for it.

Just imagine James Joyce had pandered to the foreign markets.

baalthor · 26-01-2013 12:16am

Roisy7 wrote: »

I presume she turned the key in the ignition?! :P

It means revving the engine - I never thought it was a US specific term but it seems a bit dated to me ...

Roisy7 wrote: »

I've never read any Niamh O'Connor but I remember reading Tana French's debut, which was set within the garda force. The whole way through they were referred to as police. By criminals, by the gardai themselves, by the court system. That rang very false, especially as I have heard that a trial can fall on something as simple as a guard not ticking a box on a warrant; imagine the field day a lawyer would have if someone was arrested by the Irish 'police'?!

You should spend more time listening to Joe Duffy

. Police is a common enough term for the Gardai in some parts of Ireland, especially Dublin. I read on the Emergency Services forum that when the ERU raid a building nowadays, they shout out: "Gardai - armed police!" , just in case the people in there aren't familiar with the Irish terminology.
But I imagine French was also thinking of non-Irish markets.

I don't think there is a major issue with using words that are obviously foreign or slang once their meaning is made clear to the reader.

However, many of the examples that Eileen mentioned are what you might term "false friends"; words that have different meanings in different English dialects and I agree that these are more of a problem since they can confuse and frustrate readers.
Add to the list: solicitor, fanny, cider, car parts( bonnet, boot, hand-brake, accelerator), jelly, suspenders and many more.

Then there are all the words, phrases and idioms that are unknown to the average US English reader.

And US English IS English: over 300 million speakers in North America and tens of millions more in Asia, Europe and the rest of the world. Probably not a market you can ignore ...

IsMiseLisa · 26-01-2013 9:02pm

I think you have to curtail it a bit, but not so much. My beta readers are all American--bar one who is Greek. They all understand words like 'Garda', 'gob****e', etc. Once first contextualised, you'll get away with a lot.

Brian Lighthouse · 27-01-2013 4:42pm

I have faith in Roisy7`s cultural awareness. I don`t think she`ll lose her reader.
I looked up "gunning the engine" and I`m still lost. It`s a phrase that I`ve come across in many novels. Why is it used?
I know that boat engines were started by gunpowder years ago so perhaps it does mean starting the car.
I don`t see how it has anything to do with revving the engine.
Perhaps the editor wants more action and "gunning" is perceived to be more active than "starting".

I have two of Andy Mc Nabb`s book here and in each one of them, in a couple of lines, he explains who the SAS are. Did he need to? Probably not, but he did anyway. It provides the right amount of info for the reader who might now know who they are and at the same time it doesn`t intrude in the story for those that do.
That last point is less succinct than IsMiseLisa`s point but it backs it up.

Irish slang names etc for the international market!

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