Should Air Rifle Be considered firearms?

bpb101 · 26-11-2014 2:18pm #1

I dont know if this has ever been discussed here. As im sure everybody knows, Air rifles require a normal firearms licenses. And anything over 1 Joule.
However many countries completely differ. In The uk , anybody can go in and pick up a air rifles, provided it is under 12ft.lb (16 Joules ) for rifles and for pistols, 6ft.lb(8 Joules) Apparently the shop must be a rfd.

With all this firearms change going on , should the way air Rifles/Pistols be changed. I know they are of course dangerous , dont get me wrong. But since the gardas are comparing ireland to other countries firearms law and saying they have this law so we should too , should it not work the other way

Making Airguns more easily available would allow the sport to grow a lot easier imo

Anyways , Thoughts .

Sparks · 26-11-2014 2:27pm

It occurred to us once or twice. Last time I saw it raised myself was at a public FCP meeting a few years back. DoJ didn't have any immediate problems with it at the time because it solves the paintball problem and everyone else in the EU works with a 7.5J limit anyway. Des didn't think it was important though and wanted it on the long finger, so it hasn't been touched since.

rsole1 · 26-11-2014 7:26pm

Sparks wrote: »

It occurred to us once or twice. Last time I saw it raised myself was at a public FCP meeting a few years back. DoJ didn't have any immediate problems with it at the time because it solves the paintball problem and everyone else in the EU works with a 7.5J limit anyway. Des didn't think it was important though and wanted it on the long finger, so it hasn't been touched since.

A limit of 7.5J would not be enough to even dispatch rats etc at close range.

Sparks · 26-11-2014 7:42pm

rsole1 wrote: »

A limit of 7.5J would not be enough to even dispatch rats etc at close range.

Pretty sure it would be if the pellet hit in the right place, but that's not the point of the airguns that use that limit - it was introduced for target shooting airguns in Germany. The EU seems to either use 7.5J or something similar to the UK's 12 ft-lb limit though they don't use UK units (Poland uses 17J for example). A few EU countries like Finland don't have the limit at all (last time I looked anyway).

End of the day though, we're the daftest of the lot with a 1J limit and it ought to have been fixed years ago.

amadablam · 26-11-2014 8:44pm

rsole1 wrote: »

A limit of 7.5J would not be enough to even dispatch rats etc at close range.

That 7.5J is just over 5.5 ft lb of energy and it takes 4-5 ft lb to kill a rabbit sized animal with a head shot.

I'd hate to see the size of the rats around your way

bpb101 · 26-11-2014 8:48pm

Sparks wrote: »

End of the day though, we're the daftest of the lot with a 1J limit and it ought to have been fixed years ago.

Apparently they are quite strict in airsoft ranges if you bring your own airsoft gun, they do a test to make sure your under 1 joule
Wasent the 1joule limit only brought in a few years ago , before then everything was a firearm if it fired something , I dont know now , cant remember. Then it was only changed when airsoft guns became more popular

If i do recall most countries allow up to that 7.5 joules limit and then if you want a airgun for vermin control , its a normal firearms licenses

Sparks · 26-11-2014 10:28pm

bpb101 wrote: »

Wasent the 1joule limit only brought in a few years ago , before then everything was a firearm if it fired something , I dont know now , cant remember.

Yes, the criminal justice act 2006.

Then it was only changed when airsoft guns become more popular

No, airsoft became popular afterwards.

If i do recall most countries allow up to that 7.5 joules limit and then if you want a airgun for vermin control , its a normal firearms licenses

No, it's not most. It's about half. The others have higher limits (either around the 16 joule limit or no limit at all). We're the exception.

knockon · 27-11-2014 1:35am

The poll leader says "more like the UK" - what's different in the UK?

amadablam · 27-11-2014 2:53am

knockon wrote: »

The poll leader says "more like the UK" - what's different in the UK?

ln MAINLAND UK you can buy anything under 12 ft lbs [rifle] or 6ft lbs [pistol], but in Northern Ireland, also part of the UK, the law is the same as that in the Republic.

Over 1 Joule - needs a firearms license.

Thanks tac for the extra info

Nekarsulm · 27-11-2014 3:42am

1J limit is not as daft as considering empty shell casings as ammunition !

aaakev · 27-11-2014 9:31am

Nekarsulm wrote: »

1J limit is not as daft as considering empty shell casings as ammunition !

To be fair they are each as daft as the other

I'd like to hear from the silent 8 people who think they should be licensed lole any other firearm! Care to share your thoughts?

amadablam · 27-11-2014 1:10pm

Just to dismiss any interpretations that buying a sub 12 ft lb Firearm is akin to buying any general goods over the counter in the UK.

In mainland UK you can't just walk in and out with a sub-12ft lb airgun. You MUST be over 18, and you MUST give your address - no license, it's true, but nevertheless there ARE restrictions albeit a lot less than here in ROI.

similar rules apply to airguns as they do to regular firearms - no public display or brandishing the Firearm in any manner (outside of sporting arrangements) is permitted.

Carrying them around in a case of some kind is permissable, actually mandatory, but not on any kind of public transport.

Sparks · 27-11-2014 1:22pm

Nekarsulm wrote: »

1J limit is not as daft as considering empty shell casings as ammunition !

It leads to every stag party member who did paintballling as part of the stag party (along with every member of staff from CEO to janitor in the paintballing company) technically having broken the law with a possible penalty of up to seven years in jail and twenty grand in fines.

I don't actually know how to weigh that against the daftness of considering every component part of a firearm to be a firearm. It's like trying to tell the 100th floor in the Empire state building from the 101st floor, while standing on the street on a very foggy day.

bpb101 · 27-11-2014 2:26pm

Sparks wrote: »

I don't actually know how to weigh that against the daftness of considering every component part of a firearm to be a firearm. It's like trying to tell the 100th floor in the Empire state building from the 101st floor, while standing on the street on a very foggy day.

in a real gun, there is effectfully an explosion. This propels the bullet. In an airguns air or co2 in some cases projects the pellet
This is the different as far as law is considered in the states

Sparks · 27-11-2014 2:32pm

bpb101 wrote: »

in a real gun, there is effectfully an explosion. This propels the bullet. In an airguns air or co2 in some cases projects the pellet

In a "real" (oh, we're so not getting into that) gun, there is no explosion unless something's gone horribly wrong. There's a very fast burn. That's why propellant isn't an explosive. There are ways to measure this sort of thing (wavefront propagation speeds and so on) and threshold values where you go from burning to exploding. Guns don't cross those thresholds.

Legally however, all of that physics and reality isn't relevant

Far as the law is concerned, paintball guns are mostly short restricted firearms which weren't licenced before November 2008...

Grizzly 45 · 27-11-2014 6:53pm

bpb101 wrote: »

in a real gun, there is effectfully an explosion. This propels the bullet. In an airguns air or co2 in some cases projects the pellet
This is the different as far as law is considered in the states

Likewise Germany.Anything that propels a bullet with "cold gas" is considerd a "air powered gun" under 7.5 joules
Anything that uses "hot gas" [IE a cartridge or powder] is a "firearm."

Sparks · 27-11-2014 8:14pm

amadablam wrote: »

similar rules apply to airguns as they do to regular firearms - no public display or brandishing the Firearm in any manner (outside of sporting arrangements) is permitted.

Might be because, as here, the thing you point at someone doesn't have to be a firearm for it to be legally treated as if it was. There's little connection between how (or if) we licence something and how we treat people who abuse something to harm someone.

For example, we don't have different licences for a Nissan Micra and a Porsche 911 - we just prosecute drivers who break the road traffic act (well... that's the plan, anyway :eek: )

recipio · 28-11-2014 2:07pm

Airguns are not firearms. People like to tinker with them, modify them, accessorize them, buy and sell them, collect them and even use them to put quarry in the pot.
This does not happen with firearms. The sad truth is that airguns could be deregulated in the ROI and the sky would not fall down. Is it too much to hope that the issue will be discussed in any new legislation ?

Traumadoc · 28-11-2014 2:26pm

Seeing as you can kill deer with an air gun, do you not think there should be some regulation?

aaakev · 28-11-2014 2:31pm

Traumadoc wrote: »

Seeing as you can kill deer with an air gun, do you not think there should be some regulation?

You can kill a deer with a bow and arrow and can buy them in nearly any outdoor shop over the counter with little or no restrictions and some of them would be a hell of a lot more powerful than an air rifle

Over 18 as a restriction and maybe show id in the shop but definitely not as restrictive as we have it now

bpb101 · 28-11-2014 2:44pm

Traumadoc wrote: »

Seeing as you can kill deer with an air gun, do you not think there should be some regulation?

You can kill a deer with a heavy pot. But you can still walk into homestore and more and buy a dangerous weapon

With the reply above Id dissagree that people don't customise firearms and do air rifles. But agree with the rest of your post

Traumadoc · 28-11-2014 3:07pm

bpb101 wrote: »

]You can kill a deer with a heavy pot. But you can still walk into homestore and more and buy a dangerous weapon

With the reply above Id dissagree that people don't customise firearms and do air rifles. But agree with the rest of your post

Or with a wire snare, thats not my point , my point is that some air rifles have the power of centerfire rifles ( perhaps not in range ) but are able to kill deer out to 60 0r 70 yards , they could quickly become the choice of poachers, etc.

bpb101 · 28-11-2014 3:15pm

Traumadoc wrote: »

some air rifles have the power of centerfire rifles ( perhaps not in range )

No, not at all

Sparks · 28-11-2014 4:00pm

Traumadoc wrote: »

Seeing as you can kill deer with an air gun, do you not think there should be some regulation?

Well... you could, but either you're talking about an airgun with about a thousand times more muzzle energy than target shooting airguns (and a pricetag not far off), or you're talking about beating a deer to death with an overly expensive club. I suppose you could shoot it and give it sepsis, but I don't think you could even manage to kill one that way with most airguns to be honest.

As to regulation, it comes in many forms. Age checks, registration, all the way up to the insane level we have now. Most EU nations decided a long time ago that for target shooting airguns and paintball guns, the level of regulation we have is counter-productive.

Honestly, if I was the Minister and wanted to reduce the number of firearms in Ireland, I'd up that muzzle energy limit to 16 joules. In one go, you've just taken thousands of firearms and made them not-firearms so the number takes an immediate drop; then over time people use airguns for tasks they're more appropriate to, like shooting rats or pigeons in barns on farms and so they don't get things like shotguns to do the job instead (which today you do because if it's the same hassle for either, you get the thing that can do more jobs to get the most from the invested time). Plus, it gives a bit of an economic and sporting boost to the country because now target shooting gets easier, selling the sports kit gets easier, and target shooting and paintball can grow the way airsoft did when the law changed in '06.

Traumadoc · 28-11-2014 4:15pm

Sparks wrote: »

Well... you could, but either you're talking about an airgun with about a thousand times more muzzle energy than target shooting airguns (and a pricetag not far off), or you're talking about beating a deer to death with an overly expensive club. I suppose you could shoot it and give it sepsis, but I don't think you could even manage to kill one that way with most airguns to be honest.

As to regulation, it comes in many forms. Age checks, registration, all the way up to the insane level we have now. Most EU nations decided a long time ago that for target shooting airguns and paintball guns, the level of regulation we have is counter-productive.

Honestly, if I was the Minister and wanted to reduce the number of firearms in Ireland, I'd up that muzzle energy limit to 16 joules. In one go, you've just taken thousands of firearms and made them not-firearms so the number takes an immediate drop; then over time people use airguns for tasks they're more appropriate to, like shooting rats or pigeons in barns on farms and so they don't get things like shotguns to do the job instead (which today you do because if it's the same hassle for either, you get the thing that can do more jobs to get the most from the invested time). Plus, it gives a bit of an economic and sporting boost to the country because now target shooting gets easier, selling the sports kit gets easier, and target shooting and paintball can grow the way airsoft did when the law changed in '06.

I would agree that lower power air rifles are certainly safer than say an Olympic bow .
But large caliber air rifles ( .303, or .357) are a very different proposition .

Sparks · 28-11-2014 4:20pm

Traumadoc wrote: »

I would agree that lower power air rifles are certainly safer than say an Olympic bow .
But large caliber air rifles ( .303, or .357) are a very different proposition .

Yeah, but I can only think of one or two places where they're not fully licenced (and if you shot someone with one of them in those places, it's not like the laws on assault wouldn't cover it

)

recipio · 28-11-2014 4:26pm

Wise words Sparks.
airguns could be regulated in many ways and most responsible users would not object. What we have here is proscription - one airgun is your lot if you are a good boy.
All EU countries have their rules about airguns and some like Holland have no limitations at all from what I read. There is no need for such draconian legislation here.

bpb101 · 28-11-2014 5:19pm

Sparks your dead right as it would get rid of a lot of shotguns maybe more so new applications

When we, refer to air guns nobody is suggesting no restrictions as such.
If somebody can make a 50 cal air rifle and can full auto shot that should be allowed . And let at 10 year old buy it

I'm talking about .177 target ones and possibly allowing .22 used for rat killing

The main issue with the law that is suggests that by having these strict controls on firearms , there will be less murder and that great and all but it's bullshÎt
Yes when it gets to an American level we have a problem of I want one because its my right to have one then you have a problem.

My point all in all with this thread is that if the goverment said air rifles are allowed as long as your safe. Over 18 and sure maybe even make a rds do a quick in store background check on you, you wouldn't have any increase in gun related crime .
You would have increase in people taking up sports and saything active
An increase in revenue for shooting
A happier society from gun enthusiastic

The measures In place are not for public saftey
I would suggest that if somebody is caught drunk on the side of a road with an air rifle that he get jail time and the same punishment as somebody with a 22 rimefire

Holdover · 28-11-2014 8:27pm

Sparks wrote: »

Honestly, if I was the Minister and wanted to reduce the number of firearms in Ireland, I'd up that muzzle energy limit to 16 joules. In one go, you've just taken thousands of firearms and made them not-firearms so the number takes an immediate drop; then over time people use airguns for tasks they're more appropriate to, like shooting rats or pigeons in barns on farms and so they don't get things like shotguns to do the job instead (which today you do because if it's the same hassle for either, you get the thing that can do more jobs to get the most from the invested time). Plus, it gives a bit of an economic and sporting boost to the country because now target shooting gets easier, selling the sports kit gets easier, and target shooting and paintball can grow the way airsoft did when the law changed in '06.

That's a good point Sparks, in the recent working group report the British firearms policy is mentioned a lot.
In the Annex 2 statistics it's stated in Ireland there's 8.6 legally held firearms per 100 population and in the UK there's 6.5 per 100 which makes it seem like Ireland is giving them out quite freely.
However according to the BASC website there's 4 million air rifles in the UK so that's 16 air rifles alone per 100 population so along with the 6.5 firearms per 100 figure the combined total now is actually 22.5 per 100 population which now makes Ireland look quite restrictive.
Here's the link to the BASC page
http://basc.org.uk/airgunning/basc-air-rifle-code-of-practice/

Grizzly 45 · 28-11-2014 9:13pm

Well... you could, but either you're talking about an airgun with about a thousand times more muzzle energy than target shooting airguns (and a price tag not far off

),

Like this yoke???:)
http://www.crosman.com/airguns/rifles/pcp/BPE3571
.357 cal pushing out 800fps.

Would be liscensed anyway,as anything over 12 ft /lbs 7[?] joules is liscenseable anywhere in the EU ASFIK

Yes when it gets to an American level we have a problem of I want one because its my right to have one then you have a problem

.

In a parallel multiverse perhaps that might happen:pac:.But trying to compare a country with a written constitutional right to keep and bear arms with about 360 million known firearms with 280 million people that is the worlds first hyper power,compared to all of us 4.5 million when we are all home with 250 K worth of arms and of those we are talking under 700 all in that the Gaurds want to grab,the chances of us saying anything is a "right" is about as likely as us developing an interstellar space ship next year.:)

My point all in all with this thread is that if the goverment said air rifles are allowed as long as your safe. Over 18 and sure maybe even make a rds do a quick in store background check on you, you wouldn't have any increase in gun related crime

.

When I was growing up here,many wonderful things back in the 1970s and 80s are now not available anymore,simply because either more mentally deficent people or just plain idiots were born into society.:mad:

Crossbows and bangers [to a lesser extent] being a prime example.How long would it be you think before some "tard decides it would be great craic to go shooting at cars on the M7 with his newly aquired liscense free air gun??

Proably after a massive pile up and deaths,this idiot would be found to have 95 odd previous convictions,a "troubled childhood and dysfunctional family" and the judge will have no place to put him either,and after some plea bargaining he proably gets 100 hours community service[Whatever the Hell that is these days].

Were you to do that in Germany and you were under age your parents would be strung,drawn and quarterd in the court for your offence.The father of the last perp of the school shooting in Winniden was facing multiple negligent homicide charges because his son had access to his firearm and ammo in the bedside locker.Recently some fool who was shooting at car transporter windows with an air pistol on the autobahn got fifteen years no parole for his actions.
Simply said,if we want to have more liberal firearms laws here,we have to put in more serious consequences for their misuse.Don't lets all rush to the head of the ques here to fork out more of our tax monies for more jails and judges.:rolleyes:

I would suggest that if somebody is caught drunk on the side of a road with an air rifle that he get jail time and the same punishment as somebody with a 22 rimefire

Better still,Why not make a DUI conviction a reason to lose for the time of the sentence your gun liscenses as well?? You obviously take being under the influence of alcohol that you were driving 1.5 tonnes of steel very lightly.Can you be trusted with a firearm too? In Europe that almost a standard now,along with any other "liscense " you might have that requires motor vechicles ,boats or aircraft.They have even made 8 points on your drivers liscense a reason to revoke your gun liscenses until you have worked those points off.
We would have an ultra stong arguement to say we deffo are the most law abideing people in Irish society.

bpb101 · 30-11-2014 9:11pm

Great poll responsive , but i dont think we got people who think they should be licensed 100%. Were not talking about 50 cals just anything at most under 16Joules which is the English model

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