I Loathe Dublin Bus

Ol' Donie · 24-10-2014 12:20pm

Alright, look, it's not worth continuing this.

Some fella opening the door himself is clearly quite different to the scenario I described at the start.

The various defences thrown up in this thread clearly show that people's minds are made up, and there is no room for discussion, irrespective of circumstance.

So, myself and the other scumbags that make up 99% of the population will just carry on. I am sorry for Dublin Bus as a business that they can't afford to open the doors for one person, for fear of being inundated with an endless string of lone passengers. It's a tough and very real situation.

I have learned, though, that there are many reasons not to let a passenger (in my work, we call them "customers") onto the bus. Which is a bit of a shame, for a company that literally has only one purpose, which is of course bringing passengers around the city on the bus.

dirtynosebeps · 24-10-2014 12:33pm

Ol' Donie wrote: »

I am sorry for Dublin Bus as a business that they can't afford to open the doors for one person, for fear of being inundated with an endless string of lone passengers. It's a tough and very real situation.

this is reality and this is why drivers wont open doors again at busy city centre stops. they have a service to provide for hundreds and thousands of passengers everyday and not one individual.

Ol' Donie wrote: »

So, myself and the other scumbags that make up 99% of the population will just carry on.

nobody said you or 99% of the population that dublin bus carry are scumbags. just because passengers dont get their own way they think thats what bus drivers think of them. your just one of the many of hundreds of pissed off passengers that drivers have to deal with everyday.you'll get your bus today, tomorrow, next day and just go about your merry way. the real scum is where drivers have a problem with. they have to deal with the same faces,same abuse, same chancers and so on and so forth ,on a daily basis.

RayM · 24-10-2014 12:33pm

I almost missed a bus yesterday morning. It was running around three or four minutes early (although in fairness, that's mainly the result of an over-generous timetable, rather than the driver leaving the terminus ahead of schedule). The bus had left the bus stop and was stopped at a mini-roundabout. The driver saw me running and opened the door. I looked right before stepping onto the road, got on the bus and thanked him.

Nobody died.

Ol' Donie · 24-10-2014 12:46pm

Evidence again that there are plenty of sound ones out there. A nice story.

Tarabuses · 24-10-2014 2:13pm

RayM wrote: »

I almost missed a bus yesterday morning. It was running around three or four minutes early (although in fairness, that's mainly the result of an over-generous timetable, rather than the driver leaving the terminus ahead of schedule). The bus had left the bus stop and was stopped at a mini-roundabout. The driver saw me running and opened the door. I looked right before stepping onto the road, got on the bus and thanked him.

Nobody died.

Yes but, unfortunately, if you had died in these circumstances the driver could have been held responsible.

LXFlyer · 24-10-2014 2:22pm

RayM wrote: »

I almost missed a bus yesterday morning. It was running around three or four minutes early (although in fairness, that's mainly the result of an over-generous timetable, rather than the driver leaving the terminus ahead of schedule). The bus had left the bus stop and was stopped at a mini-roundabout. The driver saw me running and opened the door. I looked right before stepping onto the road, got on the bus and thanked him.

Nobody died.

I appreciate your point, but being fair about it the company instructs drivers not to pick people up once they have closed the doors. From that point onwards, they are supposed to focus on driving and the road.

If they do open the doors, that is totally at their own discretion, and if something goes wrong, they're liable for it.

I don't see why people are, frankly, excoriating drivers for following company procedures. I've lost track of the number of times I've seen people making rude gestures at the driver of buses that I've been on for not opening doors between stops. But ultimately it's not a case of drivers being uncaring or rude, they are just following the procedures that they have been issued with.

end of the road · 24-10-2014 2:27pm

Ol' Donie wrote: »

I'm not saying it should wait at the stop until it's full. I didn't say anything remotely like that. I'm saying where it's reasonable and safe a commuter & paying customer should be helped out, rather than ignored.

Yes, as it happens, I do work for a living. In fact I was trying to get home from work on the day the original incident I mentioned happened. What's the relevance?

in your case it wasn't reasonable or safe to let you on, so you didn't get on.

cdebru · 24-10-2014 2:47pm

Ol' Donie wrote: »

Does that apply if, say, someone wanted to get off the stationary bus at the bus stop? Would they be told to sit down until the next stop?

Anyway, not worth getting wound up about. Whatever the cause, Dublin Bus had a very dissatisfied customer that day.

Who now drives a Carolla, and if he has to, gets the Luas.

Does the LUAS operator open the doors again for you if s/he is waiting on lights ? If not why does this not annoy you ?

Funny thing is that a lot of complaints about DB is that they can't/won't do things properly but when they do things properly that is complained about as well. Doors are closed you missed the bus no matter how close it is or how heavy the traffic is, IF a driver ever reopens them or lets you board away from the stop s/he are not doing what they are supposed to do, but you should say a big THANK YOU, they just did you a favour, it is not something you are entitled to nor something you should get pissed about when it doesn't happen.

cdebru · 24-10-2014 2:59pm

RayM wrote: »

I almost missed a bus yesterday morning. It was running around three or four minutes early (although in fairness, that's mainly the result of an over-generous timetable, rather than the driver leaving the terminus ahead of schedule). The bus had left the bus stop and was stopped at a mini-roundabout. The driver saw me running and opened the door. I looked right before stepping onto the road, got on the bus and thanked him.

Nobody died.

If you had tripped or fallen whilst boarding, would you have mentioned it to your solicitor that you were boarding at an undesignated stop ? Would your solicitor then have used that information to show the driver was unprofessional and had put your safety in jeopardy by allowing and encouraging you to board at an undesignated stop ?

Maybe you are a decent person, and would have kept it to yourself, or maybe you just think you are but when the euro signs started flashing maybe you might think differently.

I remember hearing a story about a BE driver same route for years, knew all the passengers by name etc etc, used to let people off near their houses at the top of the lane they lived down etc, had been doing it for years. Then one day one of his regulars tripped getting off the bus at one of these undesignated stops a woman he knew for years, didn't stop her from bringing a claim and pointing out that the driver was at fault for allowing her to alight from an undesignated stop.

cdebru · 24-10-2014 3:13pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I think it is pretty obvious - there would likely be a shortfall in farebox revenue for the company. All of this boils down to who funds the operation of our bus services. While people might not like to hear it, someone has to pay for the buses to operate, and at the moment our government is not too keen to do that any more than necessary. So it's down to the passengers.

Dublin has some very long bus routes, and the reality is that with a flat fare you would end up with a fare that is too expensive for most people making short trips, and probably would be a major discount over the current fare for those making longer trips. That would contribute to a drop in farebox revenue, and in the current financial situation that is unaffordable.

As I said above, London has a congestion charge, and the additional revenue from that helps fund the flat fare operation there.

I don't think there would necessarily be any shortfall, if it is set at a rate that takes account of total revenue of fare paying passengers divided by number of fare paying passengers. You may have a fall in shorter journeys less than current 3 stages but you may also have an increase in cheaper longer journeys, it may also encourage more people to travel if they don't have to concern themselves with the mind boggling current stage system.

LXFlyer · 24-10-2014 3:20pm

cdebru wrote: »

I don't think there would necessarily be any shortfall, if it is set at a rate that takes account of total revenue of fare paying passengers divided by number of fare paying passengers. You may have a fall in shorter journeys less than current 3 stages but you may also have an increase in cheaper longer journeys, it may also encourage more people to travel if they don't have to concern themselves with the mind boggling current stage system.

But you're taking a fairly big risk of getting it wrong. It's not an exact science. With the company's financial position being as unhealthy as it is right now, and with another financial hit coming from the extra three years of child fares, I would find it highly unlikely that they or the NTA are prepared to take that risk.

Also do you think it particularly fair that someone travelling 1/3 stages should pay the same as someone travelling from City Centre to Bray for example? We have far longer bus routes than many cities due to our reliance on buses over rail in Dublin, which does mean that there is a far greater mix of fares.

Personally I think a zonal system with clear announcements and signage (as in Berlin and Barcelona) is what is probably the best way forward. That way you can maintain some conformity between bus, rail and LUAS fares.

cdebru · 24-10-2014 3:58pm

lxflyer wrote: »

But you're taking a fairly big risk of getting it wrong. It's not an exact science. With the company's financial position being as unhealthy as it is right now, and with another financial hit coming from the extra three years of child fares, I would find it highly unlikely that they or the NTA are prepared to take that risk.

Also do you think it particularly fair that someone travelling 1/3 stages should pay the same as someone travelling from City Centre to Bray for example? We have far longer bus routes than many cities due to our reliance on buses over rail in Dublin, which does mean that there is a far greater mix of fares.

Personally I think a zonal system with clear announcements and signage (as in Berlin and Barcelona) is what is probably the best way forward. That way you can maintain some conformity between bus, rail and LUAS fares.

There are a couple of aspects you are overlooking the current system isn't particularly fair either, someone can travel from Clarehall to Jobstown for €3.05 but if they want to just go to the city centre they pay €3.05 as well, or if they board a 67 in Lucan they pay the same fare to get to Maynooth as someone who boarded in town pays to get to Maynooth.

Also a flat fare would reduce fare dodgers who pay the minimum fare but over travel.

It would also encourage people to use the bus who are put off by the overly complicated current fare system.

It would reduce dwell time at stops, A because you don't have to ask whats the fare to A or B and secondly people would have zero excuse for not having the fare ready. it should also speed up the overworked ticket machines which would be drastically simplified.

Yes there would be winners and losers, I don't agree it would be taking a risk let alone a fairly big risk, it is certainly no more risky than the capping of fares for example in fact with capping now a lot of people are paying the highest €2.50 fare even on short journeys because they plan on reaching the daily or weekly cap anyway.

Alun · 24-10-2014 4:17pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Also do you think it particularly fair that someone travelling 1/3 stages should pay the same as someone travelling from City Centre to Bray for example?

It's not far off that already anyway ... the cash fare from my house in Bray to Quinsborough Rd. is €2.35, 4 stages and a distance of only 2.1km. For only 70c more I can go all the way into the centre of Dublin, 10 times the distance at 21km and 35 'stages'. If that's not a ludicrous fare structure then I don't know what is.

n97 mini · 24-10-2014 4:20pm

The city centre fare is also an anomaly. I do a short journey every few weeks for €1.95 (Leap), knowing it would be a third the price in the city centre. I'd do it by bus more often if it was a bit cheaper.

Having said that if I could do all journeys for €1.95 I wouldn't mind.

LXFlyer · 24-10-2014 4:28pm

Alun wrote: »

It's not far off that already anyway ... the cash fare from my house in Bray to Quinsborough Rd. is €2.35, 4 stages and a distance of only 2.1km. For only 70c more I can go all the way into the centre of Dublin, 10 times the distance at 21km and 35 'stages'. If that's not a ludicrous fare structure then I don't know what is.

Without having even more fares I can't see how you address that.

Alun · 24-10-2014 4:34pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Without having even more fares I can't see how you address that.

Why would having even more fares be a problem? Just rejig the 'stage' system so that everything within Bray is one stage, for example, job done. Why a distance of only 2.1km encompasses 4 stages is beyond me.

LXFlyer · 24-10-2014 4:36pm

cdebru wrote: »

There are a couple of aspects you are overlooking the current system isn't particularly fair either, someone can travel from Clarehall to Jobstown for €3.05 but if they want to just go to the city centre they pay €3.05 as well, or if they board a 67 in Lucan they pay the same fare to get to Maynooth as someone who boarded in town pays to get to Maynooth.

Also a flat fare would reduce fare dodgers who pay the minimum fare but over travel.

It would also encourage people to use the bus who are put off by the overly complicated current fare system.

It would reduce dwell time at stops, A because you don't have to ask whats the fare to A or B and secondly people would have zero excuse for not having the fare ready. it should also speed up the overworked ticket machines which would be drastically simplified.

Yes there would be winners and losers, I don't agree it would be taking a risk let alone a fairly big risk, it is certainly no more risky than the capping of fares for example in fact with capping now a lot of people are paying the highest €2.50 fare even on short journeys because they plan on reaching the daily or weekly cap anyway.

Well as a PT user I agree with you re the desirablility of simplifying the fare structure.

But as a Chartered Accountant I can see the risks that are involved, particularly given the fragile nature of the company's books right now and the ongoing hits they are taking from LEAP, the latest being the extension of child fares to 16, 17 and 18 year olds. No financial controller worth his salt in any company would advocate completely changing a company's pricing structure until stability returned, which it hasn't as yet.

punisher5112 · 24-10-2014 4:36pm

n97 mini wrote: »

The city centre fare is also an anomaly. I do a short journey every few weeks for €1.95 (Leap), knowing it would be a third the price in the city centre. I'd do it by bus more often if it was a bit cheaper.

Having said that if I could do all journeys for €1.95 I wouldn't mind.

City centre fare aka shopper fare was introduced originally for people doing shopping in the city to try get people to use city centre shops all around so they wouldn't have to walk far.
The city centre fare is to try and compete with the Dublin bikes.

LXFlyer · 24-10-2014 4:37pm

n97 mini wrote: »

The city centre fare is also an anomaly. I do a short journey every few weeks for €1.95 (Leap), knowing it would be a third the price in the city centre. I'd do it by bus more often if it was a bit cheaper.

Having said that if I could do all journeys for €1.95 I wouldn't mind.

It's a promotional fare to encourage shoppers to use the bus in the city centre.

punisher5112 · 24-10-2014 4:49pm

Anyone like op that just hates the company and seems to have the same attitude to its drivers should read up on the company bye laws and also try and see things from the driver side of things.

Some examples here so bare with me...

Bus has a huge amount of blind spots where driver will not see intending passengers and pedestrian including cyclists, cars and so on.

People literally appear out of thin air and I really mean this I don't have a answer to where they come out of.

The best is pull into stop and people get off and on then as soon as doors are closing or closed another person in a different world decide they wanted to get off or on but made no effort to show their intention.

We as professional drivers have so much things to be worrying about, watching and trying to predict what others are going to do around us from that kid hiding behind the bush to running out from parked car to people texting or on phone and just stepping out to the cyclist bursting themselves to squeeze up the inside or outside while moving and the risk to them going under the wheels very high.

So much can happen on a duty its unreal and if we as drivers told you all half the stuff that goes on or happens you would swear we were making it up.

RayM · 24-10-2014 4:56pm

Tarabuses wrote: »

Yes but, unfortunately, if you had died in these circumstances the driver could have been held responsible.

If stepping onto a stationary low-floor bus carried a significant risk of death, I'm sure the driver wouldn't have opened the door. I know that sounds facetious, but you can generally trust a professional driver to use their initiative.

lxflyer wrote: »

I appreciate your point, but being fair about it the company instructs drivers not to pick people up once they have closed the doors. From that point onwards, they are supposed to focus on driving and the road.

If they do open the doors, that is totally at their own discretion, and if something goes wrong, they're liable for it.

I don't see why people are, frankly, excoriating drivers for following company procedures. I've lost track of the number of times I've seen people making rude gestures at the driver of buses that I've been on for not opening doors between stops. But ultimately it's not a case of drivers being uncaring or rude, they are just following the procedures that they have been issued with.

If the driver genuinely believes that it's too dangerous - or even too awkward and inconvenient - to open the doors, then that's absolutely fair enough. In many situations, opening the doors will result in lots of other people trying to get on/off and then everybody gets delayed, so I can understand them refusing - especially if it's a busy route and there'll be another bus along in a few minutes anyway.

On the other hand, if they're still beside the bus stop, stuck in traffic, and they can clearly see that there isn't any sign of danger, I don't think it does any harm to be decent and open the door. I think most drivers would be inclined to open the door in that situation, rather than staring blankly ahead.

5uspect · 25-10-2014 8:45pm

I have no problem with drivers refusing to open doors when they are not pulled into a stop. It's a consistent and understandable rule. However I've had to run for buses that have come earlier than the supposed live updates said and missed them which is frustrating.

In Germany buses wait until the timetable catches up. Some stops even have a loo just for the driver and they can wait for several minutes at a stop while passengers hop on without any driver interaction.

Also, with regards to the exceptionally long routes, why is this the case? Can't these be broken up in a couple of routes?

n97 mini · 25-10-2014 9:51pm

lxflyer wrote: »

It's a promotional fare to encourage shoppers to use the bus in the city centre.

DB should be trying to encourage people to use the bus everywhere. There is so much more to Dublin and surrounds than the city centre. There are so many different town centres.

end of the road · 25-10-2014 9:55pm

5uspect wrote: »

with regards to the exceptionally long routes, why is this the case? Can't these be broken up in a couple of routes?

yes they could, but they would potentially require more busses and drivers to run them, costing more money. i believe that was the reason for the cross city routes as part of network direct?

cdebru · 26-10-2014 2:50pm

RayM wrote: »

If stepping onto a stationary low-floor bus carried a significant risk of death, I'm sure the driver wouldn't have opened the door. I know that sounds facetious, but you can generally trust a professional driver to use their initiative.

.

He did use his initiative he didn't open the door.

The reason why drivers stare blankly ahead is that it is much easier to just ignore someone than to make eye contact and say no, and even when they say no some people won't take no for an answer and continue knocking and pleading their case so now the driver is in a discussion through the closed door as to why they can't wont open it., just ignoring makes people go away quicker. It may appear rude ( and it is) but there is a reason behind it, it works.

cdebru · 26-10-2014 3:12pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Well as a PT user I agree with you re the desirablility of simplifying the fare structure.

But as a Chartered Accountant I can see the risks that are involved, particularly given the fragile nature of the company's books right now and the ongoing hits they are taking from LEAP, the latest being the extension of child fares to 16, 17 and 18 year olds. No financial controller worth his salt in any company would advocate completely changing a company's pricing structure until stability returned, which it hasn't as yet.

I don't accept that for one minute, DB is always in a financial predicament, there will never be a good time to change anything.

I agree with what you say as regards the child leapcard fares and IMO the NTA made the decision so they should pick up whatever the costs of that measure are, they should be easily identifiable.

All that said there is a lot that could be done even short of a total flat fare, they could scrap all stages and replace it with stop based structure say €2 for 10 stops or less and €3 over 10 stops. This would simplify the system down to 2 fares make it far more transparent for passengers.
The stage system is a joke, no one actually knows for sure where the stages are not even DB, even on their own fare calculator they have stages named differently from the ticket machine they have them in different places, misnamed misplaced etc so if the company themselves don't know their own stage system how could passengers ever know it ?

I'm not hung up on a flat fare but the current nonsense belongs to a different time and needs to be overhauled badly.

RayM · 26-10-2014 7:12pm

cdebru wrote: »

He did use his initiative he didn't open the door.

The reason why drivers stare blankly ahead is that it is much easier to just ignore someone than to make eye contact and say no, and even when they say no some people won't take no for an answer and continue knocking and pleading their case so now the driver is in a discussion through the closed door as to why they can't wont open it., just ignoring makes people go away quicker. It may appear rude ( and it is) but there is a reason behind it, it works.

In no other customer-facing job is it considered acceptable to behave so ignorantly towards members of the public. I'm not even suggesting that the driver should enter into a discussion - just a simple acknowledgement that they exist. I'm trying to imagine a shop assistant getting away with blanking someone like that, and... no... they wouldn't last very long in the job, would they?

Tickityboo · 26-10-2014 7:43pm

RayM wrote: »

In no other customer-facing job is it considered acceptable to behave so ignorantly towards members of the public. I'm not even suggesting that the driver should enter into a discussion - just a simple acknowledgement that they exist. I'm trying to imagine a shop assistant getting away with blanking someone like that, and... no... they wouldn't last very long in the job, would they?

How often would you ask a shop assistant to do something that goes against company policy and is potentially dangerous!!?

In the bus drivers case acknowledging the person who is asking you to do precisely that is inviting confrontation so it's better to avoid eye contact.

punisher5112 · 26-10-2014 7:51pm

We as drivers have enough to watch and any person stepping out to try and get on should think of what could happen if driver of bus or cyclist or motorcyclist didn't see them.

i have had many a occasion this happen and have even had absolute idiots press door button while moving inside and out.

I and any other driver have to be watching for anything and everything.

markpb · 26-10-2014 8:15pm

lxflyer wrote: »

No financial controller worth his salt in any company would advocate completely changing a company's pricing structure until stability returned, which it hasn't as yet.

But a CEO might see that without a change that attract could more customers, the company's financial position might not improve. There's a balance to be found, companies that are constantly financially conservative are rarely successful.

I Loathe Dublin Bus

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