help with water charge

vintary · 22-09-2014 10:25am #1

Please I am just looking for a bit of factual advice or even to be pointed in the right direction so I do not want to encourage or attract keyboard bashing against the powers that be or their friends.

Officially on paper we would have 3 adults registered in the home but without going too much into our lifestyle or how much time we are at home, We would never use 30.000lt of water a year or anywhere near it.

From what I can gather there is no standing charge or meter rental cost and I would imagine if I tried to get answers from an Irish state department I would end up on stress pills.

Is there any EU legislation that I could wave in their face that states I do not have to pay for something I am not using, and because there is a meter counting what I use surely there must be some law on my side.

ArmaniJeanss · 22-09-2014 11:15am

As I understand it if you are metered and stay below the free allowance then your bills will be zero.

hallo dare · 22-09-2014 11:19am

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

As I understand it if you are metered and stay below the free allowance then your bills will be zero.

That would be nice, but is there not a penalty fee that will be introduced if you didn't use a certain amount of water? I could be talking waffle, but I am sure I heard that on the radio at some stage.

MadYaker · 22-09-2014 11:21am

A penalty for not using enough water? I seriously doubt it. However id imagine the free allowance is tiny.

Doom · 22-09-2014 11:23am

You'd be surprised how much water you actually use, 30,000Litres is not a whole lot.

godtabh · 22-09-2014 11:24am

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

As I understand it if you are metered and stay below the free allowance then your bills will be zero.

Thats not correct. The charge is made up of two part. The water you consume which is metered. There is also a charge for the water you dispose of ie flush down the toilet etc etc.

Doom · 22-09-2014 11:26am

I guarantee if people use less than the allocation, they will reduce it year on year...Their aim is the raise tax money, not preserve water.

vintary · 22-09-2014 11:37am

I guarantee we would never use 30.000lt in or out, it looks like their charging per person in the home weather the water is used or not. keeping in mind its all over the EU so people should cut down on water. It looks to me like I am paying for water I am not using. If it has to be paid it has to be paid but when its fully privatized I fear large bills for something I am not using

ArmaniJeanss · 22-09-2014 11:41am

godtabh wrote: »

Thats not correct. The charge is made up of two part. The water you consume which is metered. There is also a charge for the water you dispose of ie flush down the toilet etc etc.

But there is no meter on disposed water, and no overall standing charge.
So what mechanism do they use to charge for water disposal?

vintary · 22-09-2014 1:10pm

I have wasted some of my time over the past week or so making phone calls, reading newspapers, this whole morning on the web and asking anyone I came across about this issue.

From what I see here is not only can my query be cleared up but no one seems to know what in Gods name is going on, its looks to me as if a private company has the power to change state law to suit its own needs.

On that basses I have decided not to return papers nor money until its laid down in more detail.

Thank you for your reply's.

View · 22-09-2014 4:12pm

vintary wrote: »

Please I am just looking for a bit of factual advice or even to be pointed in the right direction so I do not want to encourage or attract keyboard bashing against the powers that be or their friends.

Officially on paper we would have 3 adults registered in the home but without going too much into our lifestyle or how much time we are at home, We would never use 30.000lt of water a year or anywhere near it.

From what I can gather there is no standing charge or meter rental cost and I would imagine if I tried to get answers from an Irish state department I would end up on stress pills.

Is there any EU legislation that I could wave in their face that states I do not have to pay for something I am not using, and because there is a meter counting what I use surely there must be some law on my side.

To answer your question, it is entirely a domestic matter as to what water charging model applies here.

I would personally favour there being a zero standing charge, higher cost per unit tariff option (as Bord Gais has for gas) but alas the regulator has not made that option available to consumers.

dave ireland · 23-09-2014 4:04pm

sorry for butting in with no real answer to your problem

it looks like there is no charge for the water or the meter at least not the way the gas esb oil ext ext would class as a charge probably saying this wrong as its 3rd hand info but a legal man is going on about the water firm is charging a person 176euro just for living in the house they have said no rental on the meter or no standing charge for the service so there charging 1 person 176euro even if they never used 1 drop of water.
it looks like its going to be like sky tv you pay for 24hours even if you only watch 1hour a day

the angle is the esb or gas firm can now turn around and say no rental on our meters but we want 176euros first person and 102euro for each other person even if you don't use any of our power or gas

Godge · 25-09-2014 11:58am

vintary wrote: »

I guarantee we would never use 30.000lt in or out, it looks like their charging per person in the home weather the water is used or not. keeping in mind its all over the EU so people should cut down on water. It looks to me like I am paying for water I am not using. If it has to be paid it has to be paid but when its fully privatized I fear large bills for something I am not using

Unless it is a holiday home and never used, the place must smell from three people living there and not using 30,000 ltr.

If it is a second house:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/water_services/water_charges.html

"There will be no standing charge in respect of principal residences, but a minimum charge may apply to second homes. Irish Water has proposed a minimum charge of €80 per service per year for second homes – a total of €160 for a house using both public water supply and public wastewater services. This was among the proposals that the CER consulted on during August 2014."

vintary · 04-10-2014 7:59am

Hello Godge My meter has hardly moved since it went in.

I am not signing up with them as I now realize I do not have to. It now looks like it is all a scam. Our government is acting as a sales department for a private company and the law is with the people, (unless you sign up).

Thanks again.......

meglome · 04-10-2014 1:14pm

vintary wrote: »

Hello Godge My meter has hardly moved since it went in.

I am not signing up with them as I now realize I do not have to. It now looks like it is all a scam. Our government is acting as a sales department for a private company and the law is with the people, (unless you sign up).

Thanks again.......

Ah for the love of jebus...

You don't have to sign up for them as you already have a contract as you use the service. Basic contract law as any lawyer will tell you. However it would be pretty dumb not to sign up as you won't get your allowance and will pay twice as much. Certainly if your stated intention is to not sign to prevent a contact being in place that will be doubly dumb as you've got one now.

How is it a scam? Even the money collected this year will not half cover the amount it will cost to clean up the mess that is our water system.

It's a semi-state company, exactly the same as the ESB and Bord Gais. And yes it is a private company fully owned by the government exactly like the ESB and Bord Gais... i.e. a semi-state.

04-10-2014 1:18pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

But there is no meter on disposed water, and no overall standing charge.
So what mechanism do they use to charge for water disposal?

All water that goes out must have come in. If you collect from drains on roof for toilets that will be free water out. So it is assumed the water that you buy must be expelled.

vintary · 07-10-2014 6:35pm

At the moment the state is responsible for the water supply to its citizens and cannot refuse to supply same.

This can only be changed if the citizen gives consent, (IE) referendum or agreeing a supply with another source.

The state cannot order its citizens into a contract; it can only suggest that they do so.

The Irish water company is to the water supply as is the VHI to the health care, it will run parallel to it.

Godge · 07-10-2014 6:44pm

vintary wrote: »

At the moment the state is responsible for the water supply to its citizens and cannot refuse to supply same.

This can only be changed if the citizen gives consent, (IE) referendum or agreeing a supply with another source.

The state cannot order its citizens into a contract; it can only suggest that they do so.

The Irish water company is to the water supply as is the VHI to the health care, it will run parallel to it.

Most of that is rubbish. They can't cut you off, but they can reduce the pressure to your house.

They can also bring you to court and you pay the costs. The lawyers are rubbing their hands with glee.

oscarBravo · 07-10-2014 7:01pm

vintary wrote: »

This can only be changed if the citizen gives consent, (IE) referendum...

Referendums are generally used to amend the constitution. Perhaps you could point out the article of the constitution you believe would require amendment.

The state cannot order its citizens into a contract; it can only suggest that they do so.

If you use water supplied by Irish Water, you are agreeing to contract with them. If you don't want to use water supplied by Irish Water, dig a well.

vintary · 08-10-2014 9:50am

oscarBravo wrote: »

Referendums are generally used to amend the constitution. Perhaps you could point out the article of the constitution you believe would require amendment. If you use water supplied by Irish Water, you are agreeing to contract with them. If you don't want to use water supplied by Irish Water, dig a well.

I am not using water supplied by Irish water, I am using water supplied by the state.

vintary · 08-10-2014 9:53am

Godge wrote: »

Most of that is rubbish. They can't cut you off, but they can reduce the pressure to your house.

They can also bring you to court and you pay the costs. The lawyers are rubbing their hands with glee.

Irish water can't take me to court because I do not deal with them.

I am not using water supplied by Irish water I am using water supplied by the state.

RossieMan · 08-10-2014 9:57am

You've changed your tune since the opening post. It was quite obvious you were only always going down this route.

You've a contract with Irish water now, whether you like it or not.
Dig a well and get your own water if you like, you'll still have to pay to get rid of it.

People are going on like its a lot of money, its actually not too bad, yet.

Hopefully this will finally improve the quality of the water we receive.

Your defences about a referendum is laughable, some people have no idea about whats going on.

vintary · 08-10-2014 10:56am

""People are going on like its a lot of money, its actually not too bad, yet.

Hopefully this will finally improve the quality of the water we receive""

Rossieman do you honestly believe that,,,. I will match your statement

There will no improvement in anything that would have not been improved anyway.

It will cost an average family more that the cost of tax and insurance on two family cars annually, unless they live like their great grandparents back in the 1900s.

Sorry lads but it is of no benefit to me to keep replying here.

FreudianSlippers · 08-10-2014 11:11am

vintary wrote: »

""People are going on like its a lot of money, its actually not too bad, yet.

Hopefully this will finally improve the quality of the water we receive""

Rossieman do you honestly believe that,,,. I will match your statement

There will no improvement in anything that would have not been improved anyway.

It will cost an average family more that the cost of tax and insurance on two family cars annually, unless they live like their great grandparents back in the 1900s.

Sorry lads but it is of no benefit to me to keep replying here.

Lol don't get the answer you want to throw toys out of pram and leave

stevebee · 12-10-2014 7:29pm

Ok guys

The story is simple, allowance per house ie two aduts is 30,000 litres per year, then 21,000 for every child under 18, so if you can stay under this combined allowance you will NOT have to pay a penny. I have this in writing from irish water and verified by my solicitor, anyway its states on the website that there is no standing charge. This charge of 50 euro was scrapped in may for higher cost per litre which is rightly so.

So its fairly simple lads try and get another source for use in toilets etc ie rain harvesting etc. and meter your water and you will have no bills.

This will only be the case for people with septic tanks and not public sewers as there will be a charge for wastewater usage.

My plan is to keep under allowance using a tank reservoir supplying the toilets , showers with a filtered system pumped from a nearby stream, which will set me back about a grand.

The fact I have this in writing about no standing charge I am quite confident they cant change their minds without legal consequences .

Its also very easy to monitor your meter so no excuses really.

dave ireland · 12-10-2014 9:17pm

Yeh,, ok

I,ll get a nights sleep now no more worries now that the biggest con men in the world have gave their word.

they will get nothing more from me and that's that

no judge will do anything to me when the con men taking me to court are breaking more laws than me.

do what you have to do and I will go my way..... thank you very much

RossieMan · 12-10-2014 9:20pm

Why was this mess opened up again?

stevebee · 12-10-2014 11:32pm

what was that reply all about. I was trying to clarify things for people. Don't know why I bother?

FreudianSlippers · 13-10-2014 10:13am

stevebee wrote: »

The story is simple, allowance per house ie two aduts is 30,000 litres per year,

30k litres / year for each service; wastewater is presumed on an in/out basis pinned to water, so theoretically if you have a greywater system in the house you're in profit :pac:

then 21,000 for every child under 18

Not so fast... every child eligible to qualify for child benefit. From welfare's website:

A child is a qualified child for Child Benefit if s/he is:

-Under 16 years of age
-Aged 16 or 17 and either in full-time education or incapable of self-support by reason of long-term physical or mental disability
-Ordinarily resident in the State
-Not detained in a reformatory, industrial school or in legal custody.

The fact I have this in writing about no standing charge I am quite confident they cant change their minds without legal consequences .

This isn't necessarily correct, the government is in charge of what they're calling something like "water services policy" (it's in one of the Acts, but I can't recall at the moment); this gives them the ability to amend the pricing structure at any point really. I would presume that as it isn't a contractual issue with UÉ, but rather a governmental policy matter, they could amend it at any time.

dave ireland · 13-10-2014 12:52pm

FACTS....

@ they have a pre arrange target of how much the want from this annually (you may save water but not money)

@ on the 30th of last month the news media gave details of cost and Irish water said ,if there is a sort fall; the cost goes up, I seen it myself on TV 3 that morning (you may save water but not money)

@ they have been giving a six year freelance price increase go ahead to do as the please

WHY.....
@ they posted their package to the named householder of each home (why no 30.000lt allows for one adult at this point)

WHY has the tone changed now from

# we are getting low on rain in Ireland and need to bring this charge in to save water.
# the rest of Europe has it so we have to bring it in.
# the whole system needs redoing.
# you pay or go to court
# you pay or water presser turned down

TO...
# ahh it wont cost that much
# well we need some payment to maintain it

Irish water are now on the run because people are standing up and votes overrule money.

They now realiz that their plan and the last governments plan and their rich friends plan to make huge, huge, huge enormous amounts of moneys from what is the property of the “Irish people” could now yield them nothing. What should have been an improvement in water service, reservoirs toped up and with a respectable decent profit? could now be scraped.

I now save rain water and have cut down on what we use I do this not to save money but to save contact with them.

there is something about that allows and prsi numbers that does not seem right ? if I am forced to deal with Irish water I will do so kicking and screaming all the way and if after the next election its scraped I fear anyone already with a private water suppler will have to stay with them.

I intend to show that judge who Im put in front off for stopping payments that I signed up to Irish water under duress and not freely.

nice_guy80 · 22-10-2014 8:47pm

It was never about leaks, investment or usage.

Money, money, money.

help with water charge

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