Lee Carsely Syndrome

steelcityblues · 17-02-2012 12:41am

luckyfrank wrote: »

The current arsenal squad minus van persie

?

Nearly everyone regards them as rubbish.

Bodhisopha · 17-02-2012 7:47am

Ryan Giggs.

Max Powers · 17-02-2012 11:32am

Phil Neville,
Rio Ferdinand
Gareth barry
Theo Walcott (a bit early to be judging him but over hyped big time)
Joe Cole (disapointingly underperformed in England)

The trend here is any English player who shows a small bit of talent, so he is the next bobby moore, charlton, etc. Obviolusly there are other nationalities but we are bombarded with English media so off top of my head

POKERKING · 17-02-2012 11:48am

Max Powers wrote: »

Phil Neville,
Rio Ferdinand
Gareth barry
Theo Walcott (a bit early to be judging him but over hyped big time)
Joe Cole (disapointingly underperformed in England)

The trend here is any English player who shows a small bit of talent, so he is the next bobby moore, charlton, etc. Obviolusly there are other nationalities but we are bombarded with English media so off top of my head

When was theo walcott ever under rated? I disagree totally there, has been over rated ever since he made his debut for Southampton.

Have you misunderstood the op?

Morzadec · 17-02-2012 12:20pm

POKERKING wrote: »

When was theo walcott ever under rated? I disagree totally there, has been over rated ever since he made his debut for Southampton.

Have you misunderstood the op?

About 80% of the posters have misunderstood the OP :pac:

EdenHazard · 17-02-2012 12:23pm

Its cause OP used Carsley, which proves the OP is wrong because nobody recognises that Carsley was kinda good, people would view him as ****. Like I said the thread should have Makeleles face imposted in jumbo size in the opening post. Don't get me wrong he was a very good player.

Orando Broom · 17-02-2012 1:42pm

EdenHazard wrote: »

Its cause OP used Carsley, which proves the OP is wrong because nobody recognises that Carsley was kinda good, people would view him as ****. Like I said the thread should have Makeleles face imposted in jumbo size in the opening post. Don't get me wrong he was a very good player.

Bites tongue...

EdenHazard · 17-02-2012 1:53pm

What?

Wompa1 · 17-02-2012 2:16pm

Freddy Adu

It wasn't just Americans that hyped him. He was being hyped by European football journalists and was being scouted by numerous large European clubs from a young age but the guy sucks.

Orando Broom · 17-02-2012 2:17pm

EdenHazard wrote: »

What?

Makalele was ****in' ****e. Pure ****e. The biggest one-note, one trick pony in world football ever. There I said it. His sole fucntion was to sit back and clog up the space in front of the back four while the rest of the Real Madrid team flicked and back heeled a ball around the place. That guy would not stand out in a Leinster senior league side. What he did well was realise he was a below average footballer and made sure he never did anything to give people reason to highlight the fact.

Cantona once described Deschamps as a water carrier, I'm pretty sure he meant Makalele. GRRRRR! How he got on as far as he did remains a mystery to me. A travesty of a 'footballer'.

jmayo · 17-02-2012 2:17pm

smokedeels wrote: »

...
Shay Given, was never good enough for a top four club imo. People wanted United to sign him last summer ffs.
...

Ah FFS.
So De Gea, Alumnia, Fabianski, Bosnich, Howard, Taibi, and even Czech since his injury are better than Given.
Actualyl talking about overrated there are a few in that list.

Zatman wrote: »

also forgot about Raul never seemed to be appreciated that much at Real madrid

Ehhh ???
Raul almost ran the bloody club and the fans loved him.

Zatman wrote: »

1st 15 years of Seedorf career he had never been labelled as brilliant and even saw one journalist label him a lucky player to play with great players.

Then as he comes to end of career their seems to be a love affair wit hthe guy when he is actually finished as a player

I think Seedorf has become more famous for winning CL with so many different clubs rather than anything else.
Also he has outlasted most of his colleagues that he started out with.
When they started out I always thought Edgar Davids was a more useful player to have around.

But he must have something going for him that he has played for some of the world's biggest clubs that value technical ability so highly.

Orando Broom wrote: »

Makalele was ****in' ****e. Pure ****e. The biggest one-note, one trick pony in world football ever. There I said it. His sole fucntion was to sit back and clog up the space in front of the back four while the rest of the Real Madrid team flicked and back heeled a ball around the place. That guy would not stand out in a Leinster senior league side. What he did well was realise he was a below average footballer and made sure he never did anything to give people reason to highlight the fact.

Cantona once described Deschamps as a water carrier, I'm pretty sure he meant Makalele. GRRRRR! How he got on as far as he did remains a mystery to me. A travesty of a 'footballer'.

No that was Deschamp and when he left the French national side it was noticable how they went downhill.
Every great team need a destroyer, a ball winner, someone to do the dirty work.
The great French team of Platini would not have been so great without the likes of Girese.

Makalele performed a function and was good at it.
That was where he made his difference.
A team full of Galacticos like Figo, Zidane, Ronaldo, Raul, etc is great until you lose the ball, that then when you need someone to chase, harry, and generally make a nuisance of themselves when the other side have the ball.

The unique thing about the current Barca side is that the talented players actually do some of that as well as the fancy stuff.

bobmalooka · 17-02-2012 2:19pm

Wompa1 wrote: »

Freddy Adu

It wasn't just Americans that hyped him. He was being hyped by European football journalists and was being scouted by numerous large European clubs from a young age but the guy sucks.

Read the OP mate, the idea is players who everyone said were under rated even though they were completely average.

Orando Broom · 17-02-2012 2:38pm

jmayo wrote: »

Ah FFS.
So De Gea, Alumnia, Fabianski, Bosnich, Howard, Taibi, and even Czech since his injury are better than Given.
Actualyl talking about overrated there are a few in that list.

Ehhh ???
Raul almost ran the bloody club and the fans loved him.

I think Seedorf has become more famous for winning CL with so many different clubs rather than anything else.
Also he has outlasted most of his colleagues that he started out with.
When they started out I always thought Edgar Davids was a more useful player to have around.

But he must have something going for him that he has played for some of the world's biggest clubs that value technical ability so highly.

No that was Deschamp and when he left the French national side it was noticable how they went downhill.
Every great team need a destroyer, a ball winner, someone to do the dirty work.
The great French team of Platini would not have been so great without the likes of Girese.

Makalele performed a function and was good at it.
That was where he made his difference.
A team full of Galacticos like Figo, Zidane, Ronaldo, Raul, etc is great until you lose the ball, that then when you need someone to chase, harry, and generally make a nuisance of themselves when the other side have the ball.

The unique thing about the current Barca side is that the talented players actually do some of that as well as the fancy stuff.

Busquets functions in the Makalele role but he can play football. He is also a cheating cünt but he is a wonderful footballer too.

v3ttel · 17-02-2012 2:43pm

Gareth Bale?

Spurs paid quite a bit for him (~£10 million), couldn't get a game for a significant portion of time. I think quite a few people didn't realise how good he was, or the ability that he had.

Yes, he is a very, very good player, but now I think he is overhyped imo.

Pro. F · 17-02-2012 2:54pm

Makelele was a wonderful footballer. People just don't realise it because he didn't get forward at all and had no shot or long pass on him.

The defending was only half Makelele's game. He had a sublime first touch and close control and so could make space for himself and get the ball moving forward by passing it to the right people at the right time. He was crucial to building the attacks of all the teams he played in.

EdenHazard wrote: »

Its cause OP used Carsley, which proves the OP is wrong because nobody recognises that Carsley was kinda good, people would view him as ****.

Carsley at his best was no more than a solid but limited professional. Plenty of people like yourself think he was more than that, so he's the perfect example really.

The_Kew_Tour · 17-02-2012 2:56pm

This thread goes to show more people should really read what a thread is actually about first.

smokedeels · 17-02-2012 3:43pm

jmayo wrote: »

Ah FFS.
So De Gea, Alumnia, Fabianski, Bosnich, Howard, Taibi, and even Czech since his injury are better than Given.
Actualyl talking about overrated there are a few in that list.

Only Czech and De Gea are currently 1st choice keepers at CL-level clubs. The others lost their places because they were not good enough, you can't use them in your argument.

Czech has been poor this season. On-form he's still a better keeper than Given.

DDG has the potential to be much better than Given.

EdenHazard · 17-02-2012 3:47pm

How the hell do you know that? Have you gone into the future and seen how good he could be?

cson · 17-02-2012 3:58pm

I think you need to have a little google of the word 'potential' for yourself.

Orando Broom · 17-02-2012 4:12pm

Pro. F wrote: »

Makelele was a wonderful footballer. People just don't realise it because he didn't get forward at all and had no shot or long pass on him.

The defending was only half Makelele's game. He had a sublime first touch and close control and so could make space for himself and get the ball moving forward by passing it to the right people at the right time. He was crucial to building the attacks of all the teams he played in.

Carsley at his best was no more than a solid but limited professional. Plenty of people like yourself think he was more than that, so he's the perfect example really.

I'm sorry but I could not disagree with you more. The guy wore boots and shorts and that was about the only similarity he had to a footballer. He was the antithesis of a footballer. Abdication of responsibility at every turn. He was an athlete, a robust Walcott. But a footballer, no! Honest to god with conditioning any one with a drop of mental fortitude could do what he was doing for Real. His influence was blown totally out of proportion. He became a cause celebre because Real did not (rightly) give two ****s about him. The only mistake they made is they did not replace him with a midfielder who could put himself about. Had Madrid replaced him with Alonso at the time (season before he signed for Liverpool) Makalele would be a footnote in history. Not even a footnote.

Corholio · 17-02-2012 5:16pm

Orando Broom wrote: »

I'm sorry but I could not disagree with you more. The guy wore boots and shorts and that was about the only similarity he had to a footballer. He was the antithesis of a footballer. Abdication of responsibility at every turn. He was an athlete, a robust Walcott. But a footballer, no! Honest to god with conditioning any one with a drop of mental fortitude could do what he was doing for Real. His influence was blown totally out of proportion. He became a cause celebre because Real did not (rightly) give two ****s about him. The only mistake they made is they did not replace him with a midfielder who could put himself about. Had Madrid replaced him with Alonso at the time (season before he signed for Liverpool) Makalele would be a footnote in history. Not even a footnote.

That bit is a load of rubbish. Makelele was vital for Real in the time he played there, Real just didn't see it because of their fetish for attacking players, and im saying this as a Real fan. You try to argue the point of him being a 'wonderful' football by going to the other extreme of him barely being a footballer at all. I disagree with both, but he was a lot better than you seem to think he was.

Orando Broom · 17-02-2012 5:39pm

Corholio wrote: »

That bit is a load of rubbish. Makelele was vital for Real in the time he played there, Real just didn't see it because of their fetish for attacking players, and im saying this as a Real fan. You try to argue the point of him being a 'wonderful' football by going to the other extreme of him barely being a footballer at all. I disagree with both, but he was a lot better than you seem to think he was.

Makalele left because he wanted money far above his pay grade. The guy WAS barely a footballer. I have never seen such a limited creature get as much respect for the absence of ability. The equivalent would be a rhythm guitarist being feted despite him only ever playing the Em chord.

People tried to sound important and pseudo-intellectual by dissecting the 'subtleties' of his game. there were none. He was a subtle as a brick. The guy did nothing bar track, tackle and lay off. Honest to god you could have signed any midfielder from the League of Ireland to do Makalele's job. All it required was the self awareness to know you weren't king ****. That's it.

A lot of the deification of him came about from a knee jerk reaction to the Glactiocos. Don't fete Figo, don't laud Zidane. The most important cog is the sack of carbon and water that never crosses the half way line.

Just because the football world falls for it does not make it true. This is the industry that provides Jamie Redknapp with employment and continually rehires Steve Bruce and gave Emile Heskey 500 games in a top flight league.

You obviously disagree with me and that is fair enough; you can reply to this but I won't be wasting another calorie on Claude Makaele!

It won't be any slight on your or others opinions of him, I'm not for turning and I've said all i have to say on him.

Pro. F · 17-02-2012 7:02pm

Orando Broom wrote: »

The guy did nothing bar track, tackle and lay off.

Yes he did. He received the ball and found the right pass (often forward) in the tightest of situations. He did it game in, game out, no matter how hard the opposition were working to close down the space.

He was able to do this because of his superb first touch and close control. The general donkeys who often try to imitate this work fail because they don't have the ball skills.

jmayo · 17-02-2012 7:18pm

smokedeels wrote: »

Only Czech and De Gea are currently 1st choice keepers at CL-level clubs. The others lost their places because they were not good enough, you can't use them in your argument.

Ehh how long was Almunia the no.1 at Arsenal ?
He was no.1 for a few years, at the same time as they were in the top 4.
Are you saying that in those years Almunia was a better keeper than Given ?

Also maybe the others like Bosnich, Howard, etc were replaced, but they were still installed as no.1 keepers AFAIK.
Do they only count in your world if they get to play for numerous years and/or are allowed retire ?
In that case the only true top 4 keepers have been the likes of Schmeichal, Lehman, Van de Saar, Seaman and the only true current ones are Reina and Czech ?
After all De Gea or Hart have not been long enough in their jobs. :rolleyes:

smokedeels wrote: »

Czech has been poor this season. On-form he's still a better keeper than Given.

Czech has not been the keeper he was since he got smacked in the head.
Have you watched him over the last couple of seasons and how many times he will dive at players feet or put himself at risk.
It is a major weakness and it has affected his ability.

Oranage2 · 17-02-2012 11:58pm

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

This thread goes to show more people should really read what a thread is actually about first.

So the OP makes up a syndrome and you expect people to discuss as a science?

I interpreted the 'Lee Carsley syndrome' as an extremely average player rated as the Messiah so thats why I said Luis Suarez.

eagle eye · 18-02-2012 1:04am

I remember watching the Galacticos and basically I was watching to see Zidane playing as often as I could but after a few games it was clear who the best player on that team was and thats Claude Makelele. He broke up everything, his passing was top quality and he basically ran the midfield. Then you get the ball forward with Roberto Carlos flying down one wing from full back, Zidane taking three players to mark until they had to cover the possible cross and then Zidane gets a bit of space and before you knew it there was a goal. It was an awesome team but Makelele was consistently brilliant for them, not only his awesome tackling and breaking up play but also starting moves and he was well able to spread the ball around the park.

Zidane made a comment about how good he was when he was sold, something about a putting a new coat of paint on the Bentley when the engine was gone, basically saying that the car wouldn't work without the engine(Makelele) and how true that turned out to be. Meanwhile Claude moved on to Chelsea and continued his winning ways there.

KingdomYid · 18-02-2012 1:18am

Raskolnikov wrote: »

My thoughts are that if Bale or Modric got injured, both players are simply irreplaceable to this Spurs team. However, if Parker got injured, I could think of a few who could step up to the mark (Livermore, Sandro). Parker is certainly a good player, but he isn't a special player like Modric or Bale.

Well you obviously dont watch a lot of Spurs or see Parker live at white hart lane if you think Livermore or Sandro could just slot in for him. I believe he has made all the difference for Spurs this year as the aforementioned Bale and Modric have performed better than before because of Scott Parker.

Morzadec · 18-02-2012 5:45am

Oranage2 wrote: »

So the OP makes up a syndrome and you expect people to discuss as a science?

I interpreted the 'Lee Carsley syndrome' as an extremely average player rated as the Messiah so thats why I said Luis Suarez.

To be fair it's not really up for interpretation. It's explained pretty concisely and explained well in the OP imo and I'm scratching my head at those who can't seem to understand it. Yes it's been invented by the OP but it's a well-spotted phenomenon and is very very different from a player simply being overrated.

LCS = A player who is not rated very highly, but actually plays a greater role than many think. People start to recognise this and said player begins to be known as 'underrated' by many. Because the general consensus is that this player is underrated, every good thing this player does is magnified and perhaps some of the bad things ignored and the general consensus begins to swing too far the other way. The said player goes from being undervalued and underrated to being overrated, as people overcompensate for the perceived lack of credit the player gets.

Personally I think Lee Carlsey is a pretty decent example.

Fletcher, for me, is the ultimate. A figure of fun for a while, he, along with the likes of O'Shea and Wes Brown were held up as reasons for why United were on the decline: 'You'll/We'll never win anything with Fletcher in your team', was probably a common line in the pub. Dunphy might even have said it.

This was unfair on Fletcher who was a very solid midfielder who did a very decent job and was becoming an important member of the squad. Fletcher was being underrated.

This consensus began to be accepted. Fletcher is an underrated player. Look at what a great job he does. United have picked up X amount of points when Fletcher starts and lost X amount when he's out, he really is a very important player. Along with Vidic and Rooney he's the most important player for United, we really can't afford to be without him. We might well have won the Champions League if the World Class Fletcher had been playing...

Fletcher here as ended up being overrated, mainly because there was such an emphasis and realisation on him before being underrated. The general consensus has swung too far the other way.

I can't explain it better than that.

Ultimately it's subjective and it's hard to argue about there being any 'right' or 'wrong' answers, but I can't understand answers such as Phil Jones and Luis Suarez (and many other terrible suggestions imo on this thread). They just don't fit in at all with the OP's definition.

K4t · 18-02-2012 5:56am

gosplan wrote: »

I'm gonna potentially derail this whole thread and say Scholes.

He was actually known as 'the most underrated player in the PL' for years whereas nowadays you can't mention his name without someone posting a quote from Xavi saying how he's the best midfielder ever.

Class player no doubt but longevity and being the only creative fulcrum in the Man U midfield have benefitted him over the last few years.

Admittedly it doesn't fit exactly because he actually is a world beater but he went from being underrated to overrated.

Phil Neville is a good shout too - fairly dependable workhorse at Utd to captain fantastic at Everton.

There's a difference between becoming overrated and appreciated. Scholes has always been world class.

darced · 18-02-2012 6:27am

This post has been deleted.

Lee Carsely Syndrome

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