BIS - Yay or Nay?

D'Agger · 05-07-2009 3:23am #1

I've been doing BIS for a number of years and I can't help but feel frustrated at how the course is taught...I've had to repeat subjects due to lack of effort but at the same time it seems to me that the more people you know in your class the better you'll get on. Projects handed up are basically regurgitated code, the course teaches you in basic terms and then projects ask you to produce much larger applications with much more data...meaning the student has to self-teach to an extent! I have no problem looking online and through books to find out how to do something but it seems to be a recurring problem - basic teaching given, expert projects expected. Also any course that asks a student to give 40% of his marks to a lecturer via projects and MCQs then sit an exam whereby roughly 50% of it involves writing out code is ridiculous. When a student writes code for a project he can see where he's going wrong and change it - trial and error. In an exam you have to write it perfectly or low marks are given. I may be wrong but anybody who's graduated from BIS has never again had to write out code on a sheet of paper. So rant over....anybody else agree with me??

Fol20 · 05-07-2009 3:57am

PaulieC wrote: »

I've been doing BIS for a number of years and I can't help but feel frustrated at how the course is taught...I've had to repeat subjects due to lack of effort but at the same time it seems to me that the more people you know in your class the better you'll get on. Projects handed up are basically regurgitated code, the course teaches you in basic terms and then projects ask you to produce much larger applications with much more data...meaning the student has to self-teach to an extent! I have no problem looking online and through books to find out how to do something but it seems to be a recurring problem - basic teaching given, expert projects expected. Also any course that asks a student to give 40% of his marks to a lecturer via projects and MCQs then sit an exam whereby roughly 50% of it involves writing out code is ridiculous. When a student writes code for a project he can see where he's going wrong and change it - trial and error. In an exam you have to write it perfectly or low marks are given. I may be wrong but anybody who's graduated from BIS has never again had to write out code on a sheet of paper. So rant over....anybody else agree with me??

Im only going into second year bis(hopefully after i repeat a ac module) but yea,like anything there are flaws with any course.Some of the teachers can be bad to say the least and some are good.

As a lecturer i think Jeremy Hayes is spot on.He will be up front with you and can teach fairly well while still making a few jokes about programming.I know the languages you are doing are a lot more advanced but so far in the course,he teaches the outline and the important code to use,this combined with some stupid tutorials where you just copy and paste what they have up in the projector gives ya the gist of what your meant to put down.They cant hold your hand at this stage in your life,so you do have to do a bit of research to find every nit and cranny for the projects.

In regards to projects,i think its a fairer deal that a final exam worth a lot of your overall marks.Think about it this way,although the project is marked a bit harder as you have time to do it,it is fairly handy to get the required percentage as the amount of time and effort you put into it is reflective on the score you get..People who are not so good at coding but who put a good amount of time into it could easily get 70% in these projects.This then allows them leaway in the final exam and allows them to pass it.Although talent is necessary for the subject i believe the projects allows for people to just get through the subject if its not their specialty and as you probably know since its been drilled into us so much that programming is the most failed subject in bis.

I have to agree with you on your final point that writing code on a piece of paper during an exam makes it a lot harder to spot your mistakes.When coding on a computer particularly for web dev,theres a lot of colors to highlight different functions.This makes it handy to have a more structured code while in the exam its all one color.I always found it handy to see the final exe before you hand it up but with the written exam its just theory coding so you dont get a chance to see what the final exe is.

I can see your frustrated but youd never know,with a bit of luck and effort youl fly through it

Sorry if it was a bit long but what can i do,im a bit long winded at times

.

D'Agger · 05-07-2009 4:14am

Well Jeremy's bang on alright and Andrew Pope can be aswell if you've had him for VB.NET - but VB is great - I love using it because you can throw yourself into it make it look and feel how you want it to! Java on the other hand is...words fail me!! My point about the final exam is - you've worked on your projects they've been marked hard enough now ask theory to show that you understand what exactly you've been doing all year! Coding questions and Q's that say "use code/references to back up your point" are ridiculous and of no help to graduates IMO

deisedude · 05-07-2009 11:15am

I dont personally do B.I.S. but for my course we were required do an information systems module in first and second year. Words can not describe the ineptitude of the teaching involved. In first year we were given two foreign postgraduate students with poor english who were both subsequently fired as they couldnt get their point across. Senior I.S. lecturers then had to give us 3 classes a week in the run up to study month to make up for what we hadnt learnt all year when all along we were getting one lecture a week. In second year our lecturer clearly didnt give a fcuk. Lectures were cancelled and about half of the lectures were about 20 mins long which seems grand at the time but not so much when you are cramming in advance of an exam! Thankfully i only had to do one module per year. If all the Information System lecturers are like the ones i have encountered then my sympathies to all you B.I.S. heads;)

titan18 · 05-07-2009 1:21pm

I like it.Don't see a problem in the way it's taught or anything, projects are fine and the exams are fine.If you have problems, someone will help you.I hated programming but I still did fine in it.Preferred the Access and Web Development stuff in the 1st year.Only going into 2nd year so don't know what the whole course is like, and whilst I've heard that Java is meant to be a nightmare, programmers that I know say that it's ok.

D'Agger · 05-07-2009 2:10pm

titan18 wrote: »

I like it.Don't see a problem in the way it's taught or anything, projects are fine and the exams are fine.If you have problems, someone will help you.I hated programming but I still did fine in it.Preferred the Access and Web Development stuff in the 1st year.Only going into 2nd year so don't know what the whole course is like, and whilst I've heard that Java is meant to be a nightmare, programmers that I know say that it's ok.

I liked BIS in first year aswell tbh - It gets a lot harder but that said it comes down to whether you put in the work or not, I know I didn't when I got to 2nd year. 3rd year has me hating the course - everything seemed to be crammed due to finishing early for placement and while that might be all well and good for subjects such as French or something - computer programming can't be taught in such a manner IMO You'll probably find Java fine in 2nd year - it's not bad , personally I felt from day 1 of 3rd year that Java would be the death of me though! It goes from managable to absolutely ridiculous!!

Fol20 · 05-07-2009 6:54pm

PaulieC wrote: »

I liked BIS in first year aswell tbh - It gets a lot harder but that said it comes down to whether you put in the work or not, I know I didn't when I got to 2nd year. 3rd year has me hating the course - everything seemed to be crammed due to finishing early for placement and while that might be all well and good for subjects such as French or something - computer programming can't be taught in such a manner IMO You'll probably find Java fine in 2nd year - it's not bad , personally I felt from day 1 of 3rd year that Java would be the death of me though! It goes from managable to absolutely ridiculous!!

btw,just out of interest,what was it like getting work placement..i heard a good few didnt get any..

D'Agger · 05-07-2009 7:29pm

Fol20 wrote: »

btw,just out of interest,what was it like getting work placement..i heard a good few didnt get any..

I was lucky to get mine in Cork - I'd be sending CVs in to companies before the end of August if you really want to get one. I'm not sure on how many didn't get placement but I've heard there's a few. Those who were badly stuck got jobs in UCC working for lecturers etc. Prof.Murphy will probably paint a more grim picture for you when your time comes with his usual bull!

Shatner · 05-07-2009 7:35pm

The OP raises a few interesting points about college, courses and how they are assessed. He's correct that programmers (AFAIK) will most likely never encounter a situation in working life where they have to write code on paper with pencil or pen. I guess the issue, then, is - how should these things be assessed?

Exams are not perfect, and are not always the best way to assess ability. But... they are probably the only way that is practical to find out if someone knows their stuff or not. Example - the way that French is assessed at leaving cert level is by a 15 minute oral and a 3 hour exam where you have to read/comprehend and write (e.g. a letter to a friend). In an ideal world, you would assess someone's knowledge in the way they dealt with an environment of only french speakers - could they survive, get around, talk and be understood? Then you would really see how good their language skills are (and not their ability to learn off essays!).

I'm sure the OP is correct about how badly programming is examined in college, but I'm also sure that this phenomenon is not solely limited to his course. Med students do pen and paper exams - they are not asked to perform surgery and be rated on their ability to do so. Law students write essays on interpretations of law in final year exams - they don't litigate actual cases. Business students write essays on strategy etc., they are not asked to start their own businesses and be assessed on that, on their selling/negotiating/people skills.

College is a game - like everything else, you just gotta play it, get your honours degree, and move on. It bears very little resemblance to the real world. But, when you are in the real world, you'll find that some of the things you learned will actually benefit you too.

D'Agger · 05-07-2009 8:21pm

Shatner wrote: »

I'm sure the OP is correct about how badly programming is examined in college, but I'm also sure that this phenomenon is not solely limited to his course. Med students do pen and paper exams - they are not asked to perform surgery and be rated on their ability to do so. Law students write essays on interpretations of law in final year exams - they don't litigate actual cases. Business students write essays on strategy etc., they are not asked to start their own businesses and be assessed on that, on their selling/negotiating/people skills.

Good comment and I can see where you're coming from - there's no such thing as a perfect system. That said Med and nursing are on placement for alot of their year getting practical experience - dealing with patients etc., Law students have a thing called moot where they must go before a fake court and argue a case as if it were a real one. Now I know as a BIS student I do projects but why not make it more continuous assesment and no code in a final exam - this way you're tested thoroughly on your ability to perform practical work and you're then expected to understand the theory behind it at the end of the year. I'm just sick of writing out code where a semi colon missing here or there or an incorrectly defined variable could be the difference between a pass and a fail when on a computer, you'll immediately notice your mistakes.

Shatner · 05-07-2009 8:33pm

PaulieC wrote: »

Good comment and I can see where you're coming from - there's no such thing as a perfect system. That said Med and nursing are on placement for alot of their year getting practical experience - dealing with patients etc., Law students have a thing called moot where they must go before a fake court and argue a case as if it were a real one. Now I know as a BIS student I do projects but why not make it more continuous assesment and no code in a final exam - this way you're tested thoroughly on your ability to perform practical work and you're then expected to understand the theory behind it at the end of the year. I'm just sick of writing out code where a semi colon missing here or there or an incorrectly defined variable could be the difference between a pass and a fail when on a computer, you'll immediately notice your mistakes.

True. But everyone would prob cog their projects so you wouldn't know who's work was who's? And the most successful students would be the ones who were connected enough to get into the good groups (like you said in your first post!)

D'Agger · 05-07-2009 10:51pm

Shatner wrote: »

True. But everyone would prob cog their projects so you wouldn't know who's work was who's? And the most successful students would be the ones who were connected enough to get into the good groups (like you said in your first post!)

True - the only way around that would be - tutorial work like I know some Process Engineers do - they've to do assignments in supervised tutorials on a weekly basis and submit repots on their work for their CA. Wouldn't work for BIS unless you did it at the end of every month perhaps - one hour tutorial to write code to create something - relating to the tutorial work they've done over the past month. I don't think it'd be that difficult to implement but they should definately look at the way the written exam is laid out.

Fol20 · 06-07-2009 2:10am

PaulieC wrote: »

True - the only way around that would be - tutorial work like I know some Process Engineers do - they've to do assignments in supervised tutorials on a weekly basis and submit repots on their work for their CA. Wouldn't work for BIS unless you did it at the end of every month perhaps - one hour tutorial to write code to create something - relating to the tutorial work they've done over the past month. I don't think it'd be that difficult to implement but they should definately look at the way the written exam is laid out.

Although i see where your coming from,but i dunno..I like doing work in batches rather than work stretched out across a long period..They do your system in elec eng as well but it just means you have to put in more work during the year and are also more stressed out as result

Fol20 · 08-07-2009 2:33am

Actually do any of ye know when the repeats are on,its really ****ing me up in trying to book a holiday.It says the timetable will be available late july but do you know when they were done last year etc,or will be done this year?

x43r0 · 08-07-2009 10:12am

Repeats are usually the 2nd/3rd week of august till the end of august.

I agree with OP, i hate writing code in an exam situation. I'm going into final computer science and about 80% of all the exams i've done since first year have been entirely code writing. Its horrible.

On a computer you have the luxury of editing and even when you think you're done, the compiler will make sure for you. We program a lot in our course and not once have i seen anyone in our labs write their code on paper for any reason other than maybe writing snippets down when teaching someone.

Also with BIS i agree that the learning curve in their java work is very steep. I have two friends in the same class as OP and i've seen the odd assignment they've had to do. Both had said that they had to read up a lot and looking at one assignment i found it a bit tricky myself(with 3yrs of java experience)

My suggestion would be to cut out VB(which is useless) and teach Java from 1st yr(is they don't already that is)

kmick · 08-07-2009 10:46am

Problem with BIS is that you get lots of people doing it who have no interest in coding. I am not a coder but people who are really good a coding have an interest in it. Therefore in class you learn
#include<stdio.h>
main()
{
printf("Hello World");
}
but the coders program also allows you to shoot at a dancing monkey whereas the non coders print Hello world in red. I mean I exaggerate but I hope you see my point that if you want to be good at coding you have to spend hours doing it and have an interest in it. Otherwise like me you will scrape through on the coding bits and get top marks in something like DB design which has rules that you can learn without spending all day and night on iheartjava.com.

x43r0 · 08-07-2009 10:52am

kmick wrote: »

Problem with BIS is that you get lots of people doing it who have no interest in coding. I am not a coder but people who are really good a coding have an interest in it. Therefore in class you learn
#include<stdio.h>
main()
{
printf("Hello World");
}
but the coders program also allows you to shoot at a dancing monkey whereas the non coders print Hello world in red. I mean I exaggerate but I hope you see my point that if you want to be good at coding you have to spend hours doing it and have an interest in it. Otherwise like me you will scrape through on the coding bits and get top marks in something like DB design which has rules that you can learn without spending all day and night on iheartjava.com.

I lol'd very well written post.

I too am not a coder. Hard to believe given my course. I even passed C programming in 2nd yr without ever coding a C program.

It really is something you have to invest time in to become very good at.

I get by on marks from Database, Web, Networking and theory stuff which is more than enough to get a good grade, luckily theres a lot of options module wise

D'Agger · 08-07-2009 10:19pm

Fol20 wrote: »

Actually do any of ye know when the repeats are on,its really ****ing me up in trying to book a holiday.It says the timetable will be available late july but do you know when they were done last year etc,or will be done this year?

Not on the UCC website yet they'll be out late July but I've heard they're running from August 17th - 28th or thereabouts ring UCC exams office if you need to know urgently and they'll have a decent idea - 021 4902422

D'Agger · 08-07-2009 10:24pm

x43r0 wrote: »

Repeats are usually the 2nd/3rd week of august till the end of august.

Also with BIS i agree that the learning curve in their java work is very steep. I have two friends in the same class as OP and i've seen the odd assignment they've had to do. Both had said that they had to read up a lot and looking at one assignment i found it a bit tricky myself(with 3yrs of java experience)

My suggestion would be to cut out VB(which is useless) and teach Java from 1st yr(is they don't already that is)

You're right about Java it should be taught from 1st year instead of Psychology!! - not sure if they're still doing that but I had to do it in 1st year - biggest waste of time!! I'd keep VB as it allows you to be a bit creative with how you design your program, you can see how it's coming along as you code it etc. whereas with Java it's working perfectly one minute, you make a slight adjustment to try move a textbox or something and the whole thing just ****s up right in front of you!!....Horrible horrible Java!!!

x43r0 · 09-07-2009 11:03am

They teach psychology in BIS? :eek:

Aodan83 · 09-07-2009 8:08pm

x43r0 wrote: »

They teach psychology in BIS? :eek:

I think the module is called "Psychological aspects of business and organisations". It covers personnel selection and stuff, but we did Freud and stuff aswell. I don't know what use Freud's theories on the "phallic stage" of human development has to do with business, but apparently its important. We really would have been better off spending that time doing an extra VB lab or something.

D'Agger · 09-07-2009 8:42pm

Aodan83 wrote: »

I think the module is called "Psychological aspects of business and organisations". It covers personnel selection and stuff, but we did Freud and stuff aswell. I don't know what use Freud's theories on the "phallic stage" of human development has to do with business, but apparently its important. We really would have been better off spending that time doing an extra VB lab or something.

Maslows hierarchy of needs - definately served me well when I was doing my VB projects alright!!

itsallaboutheL · 09-07-2009 9:15pm

Aodan83 wrote: »

I think the module is called "Psychological aspects of business and organisations". It covers personnel selection and stuff, but we did Freud and stuff aswell. I don't know what use Freud's theories on the "phallic stage" of human development has to do with business, but apparently its important. We really would have been better off spending that time doing an extra VB lab or something.

an absolute joke of a subject... we had a lecturer that was about twelve!! Went to the introductory lecture and didn't bother after that. Anyone with an ounce of business acumen or common sense would pass it!!

jjam2116 · 11-07-2009 9:19pm

Is anyone having trouble logging into the emails? Just wondering.

Aodan83 · 11-07-2009 9:53pm

jjam2116 wrote: »

Is anyone having trouble logging into the emails? Just wondering.

Can't get in either. Methinks we have a problem.

titan18 · 13-07-2009 7:12pm

I was but it's ok with the NB on the site.

BIS - Yay or Nay?

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