Abuse of Teachers and the Teaching Profession

poolsandles · 23-04-2014 6:16pm #1

I am sure a lot of you have seen a thread in another forum which I find appalling. It is full of false statements, misconceptions and generalisations of our profession e.g. we are overpaid, have an easy life, are underworked, can't be sacked etc. etc. Some of the statements made are so ignorant I couldn't believe it.

I chose not to contribute to this thread because most of the posts indicated to me that the posters already had their minds made up about our profession and wouldn't listen to a word any teacher had to say.

Not just on boards but socially I am constantly defending my job when I shouldn't have to. The amount of misinformation the general public in my experience have of our profession is unbelievable.

Why are we such as easy target for abuse? I don't see doctors, nurses, gardaí or other public servants ridiculed the way we are. Are we too soft, should we be more assertive and aggressive? Or are we fighting a losing battle at this stage to a public where the majority seem to have no respect for us or the job that we do?

byhookorbycrook · 23-04-2014 7:00pm

Stock answer: Yep, it's great, everyone should be a teacher, what's stopping you?

marienbad · 23-04-2014 7:07pm

Yeah, I am following that thread also and without contributing. As well as a lot of misinformation posted about the profession you also have to factor in the absolutely refusal by teachers to accept any form of criticism or display any openness to change .

Grolschevik · 23-04-2014 7:17pm

It's a PR problem essentially, one that the union reps really need to begin addressing in earnest.

I think it's partly down to the fact that, because everyone has direct experience of teachers, the general public thinks they're experts on the profession.

Mantis Toboggan · 23-04-2014 7:26pm

Isn't it obvious?
It's the holidays that ye get which drives everyone crazy. There's 183 school days in a year. That means that ye have 182 days of holidays not to mention the 5 hour days.

Not having a go at you btw simply stating why people perceive teachers to have an easy job especially at primary level. My sister is a teacher and by the time I finish work she has the kids collected, been to the gym and has the shopping done.

Fair play to ye though, it's a great profession.
I'd be a primary school teacher if I had honours Irish.

km79 · 23-04-2014 7:29pm

Buddy Holly wrote: »

Isn't it obvious?
It's the holidays that ye get which drives everyone crazy. There's 183 school days in a year. That means that ye have 182 days of holidays not to mention the 5 hour days.

Not having a go at you btw simply stating why people perceive teachers to have an easy job especially at primary level. My sister is a teacher and by the time I finish work she has the kids collected, been to the gym and has the shopping done.

Fair play to ye though, it's a great profession.
I'd be a teacher if I had honours Irish.

You don't need honours Irish to be a secondary teacher so go for it!

endakenny · 23-04-2014 7:30pm

Perhaps the following may go some way to answer the question in the OP.

The following is about paedophile teacher Donal Dunne, who sexually abused boys and physically abused girls.

http://www.offalyexpress.ie/news/local-news/parents-reluctant-to-challenge-paedophile-offaly-teacher-1-2012445

Following complaints in Castlecomer (a co-educational school), he was moved to the all-girls' Sacred Heart School in Tullamore, in 1975, and he spent the last decade of his teaching career there. Correspondence from the Department of Education reveals their thinking that as his sexual attraction was to young boys, he would not pose a danger to the girls.

However, there have been numerous descriptions from women who attended the Sacred Heart School at the time of his violent assaults and humiliation of the teenage girls. On one occasion, in the early 1980s, Gardai were called to the school following a complaint of an assault on a girl, but no prosecution followed.

A male teacher who overheard shouting was advised by the ASTI not to make a statement to Gardai.

Moody_mona · 23-04-2014 7:32pm

I think because everyone has been to school they feel they have an understanding of what we do. My boyfriend is an accountant, I wouldn't dare comment on his workload or day.

teacherhead · 23-04-2014 7:38pm

Buddy Holly wrote: »

Isn't it obvious?
It's the holidays that ye get which drives everyone crazy. There's 183 school days in a year. That means that ye have 182 days of holidays not to mention the 5 hour days.

Not having a go at you btw simply stating why people perceive teachers to have an easy job especially at primary level. My sister is a teacher and by the time I finish work she has the kids collected, been to the gym and has the shopping done.

Fair play to ye though, it's a great profession.
I'd be a primary school teacher if I had honours Irish.

Do you know that 104 day's a year are Saturdays and Sundays?

The simple things often get overlooked. Thats 287 days before you count public holidays. The holidays are good I'll agree.

It's like anything, people on the outside think they know it all about ot and see it as a handy number. Let them on.

seavill · 23-04-2014 7:38pm

endakenny wrote: »

Perhaps the following may go some way to answer the question in the OP.

The following is about paedophile teacher Donal Dunne, who sexually abused boys and physically abused girls.

http://www.offalyexpress.ie/news/local-news/parents-reluctant-to-challenge-paedophile-offaly-teacher-1-2012445

Are you actually being serious posting that as an arugment?

marienbad · 23-04-2014 7:39pm

endakenny wrote: »

Perhaps the following may go some way to answer the question in the OP.

The following is about paedophile teacher Donal Dunne, who sexually abused boys and physically abused girls.

http://www.offalyexpress.ie/news/local-news/parents-reluctant-to-challenge-paedophile-offaly-teacher-1-2012445

This post is completely out of order and I say that as someone who was physically abused by a teacher.

It wouldn't happen today and raising it just clouds the issues

linguist · 23-04-2014 7:39pm

If there is one thing every single teacher will agree on, it is that those of us who make up the profession at this time abhor and condemn the abuse of any child in the Irish education system. Any survivors of abuse who have not yet done so should report it to the Gardai and those involved should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

By the same token, however, to attach any collective blame on teachers, many of whom weren't even born when those abuses took place, is simply unfair.

Let me tell you with confidence one major difference between teachers and certain other agents of the State who've been getting publicity lately. If a child ever came to me with an allegation against a colleague, I would immediately report it to the Principal and ensure that the report was processed in line with Children First. We don't cover up for each other where child protection is concerned. That is the reality of today's teaching profession.

As regards the general topic behind this thread, I never read After Hours for teaching or any other matter:)

endakenny · 23-04-2014 7:40pm

marienbad wrote: »

This post is completely out of order and I say that as someone who was physically abused by a teacher.

It wouldn't happen today and raising it just clouds the issues

I was merely offering an explanation for the antipathy towards teachers. I wasn't baiting anyone.

seavill · 23-04-2014 7:42pm

endakenny wrote: »

I was merely offering an explanation for the antipathy towards teachers. I wasn't baiting anyone.

Accidentally or not you made a good attempt at it

marienbad · 23-04-2014 7:43pm

endakenny wrote: »

I was merely offering an explanation for the antipathy towards teachers. I wasn't baiting anyone.

Yeah well , I could cite loads of reasons for antipathy towards teachers garda tinkers tailors but if they are 25 years old it would be a load of cobblers

Arthur Beesley · 23-04-2014 7:46pm

Grolschevik wrote: »

It's a PR problem essentially, one that the union reps really need to begin addressing in earnest.

Your trade unions are part of the PR problem, not the solution.

teacherhead · 23-04-2014 7:46pm

marienbad wrote: »

Yeah well , I could cite loads of reasons for antipathy towards teachers garda tinkers tailors but if they are 25 years old it would be a load of cobblers

I agree that one thing has nothing to do with the other.

It's the holidays they dont like, and the imaginary 9-4 and the good money of course.

Morgans · 23-04-2014 7:47pm

Not a teacher and have the utmost of respect for those who aim to be great teachers. It is one of a minority of jobs where your performance makes a real impact on individuals. However, like in all professions, I'm sure there are plenty (how many percentage wise, who knows) who don't aim to be great, or feel the urge to improve. I think its often the case that the unions seem to be catering for this sector.

Again, its wrong to generalise, but most of the best teachers that Ive encountered (work with a lot of teachers and have done education-related Masters) have a skepticism and distrust/disdain of the unions that represent them.

Most teachers are far far better/reasonable than the union season would have you believe.

byhookorbycrook · 23-04-2014 8:40pm

Actually I don't agree that the unions are the PR problem, rather certain sections of the media willing to twist every single story to portray teachers badly. Not so long ago, when primary teachers and PARENTS protested at class size, it was spun as "whinging teachers."

marienbad · 23-04-2014 8:49pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Actually I don't agree that the unions are the PR problem, rather certain sections of the media willing to twist every single story to portray teachers badly. Not so long ago, when primary teachers and PARENTS protested at class size, it was spun as "whinging teachers."

Why ? What motive would they have ?

i8mancs · 23-04-2014 8:50pm

Why are we such as easy target for abuse?

Maybe because the country is run by teachers.
Maybe because of the double jobbing that goes on.
Maybe because of the relentless begging letters sent home every other week.
Maybe because of the cost of school uniforms that have to be bought from certain stores because the school gets a cut.
Maybe the high cost of books, work books etc that cant be sold on.
Maybe because they continue to teach Irish and Religion in this day and age.
Maybe because everybody knows teachers who just go through the motions and get increments regardless of performance.
Maybe looking for money to correct tests?
Maybe the way they go on at conferences jeering and heckling the speaker, but this is probably due to bad habits passed on from their colleagues in the Dail:D
Maybe their reluctance to embrace change.
Maybe the way they have let newly qualified teachers be treated so long as it didn't effect them.
Maybe because they don't get sacked for continuous under performing.

If teachers tried to help out hard pressed parents by demanding change to school costs and having a school curriculum that's suitable for this day and age, they might get a bit more support

" I don't see doctors, nurses, gardaí or other public servants ridiculed the way we are."

The Gardai are a running joke.

byhookorbycrook · 23-04-2014 9:10pm

i8mancs wrote: »

Why are we such as easy target for abuse?

Maybe because the country is run by teachers. No, it's run by bankers
Maybe because of the double jobbing that goes on.So no-one can be allowed earn money if they do extra work?
Maybe because of the relentless begging letters sent home every other week. If the DES funded schools properly this wouldn't happen, do you think it goes on spa treatment in the staffroom?
Maybe because of the cost of school uniforms that have to be bought Did you fill in the recent survey or take this up with your PTA?
from certain stores because the school gets a cut. I genuinely lol-ed
Maybe the high cost of books, work books etc that cant be sold on. Once again a DES issue, why won't they produce one standard text book? Problem solved.
Maybe because they continue to teach Irish and Religion in this day and age. We teach what the DES tells us
Maybe because everybody knows teachers who just go through the motions and get increments regardless of performance. How do you measure performance and how do you mean go through the motions, you mean do their job?
Maybe looking for money to correct tests? Will you do all that work for free, if so, I have 3 sets of Drumcondra tests x 360 for you at the end of May that you might like to tackle, because we certainly don't get paid to
Maybe the way they go on at conferences jeering and heckling the speaker, but this is probably due to bad habits passed on from their colleagues in the Dail We don't get to see RQ any other time and with the way he thinks, like that hons maths are only for boys, maybe it's just as well
Maybe their reluctance to embrace change. Please elaborate.
Maybe the way they have let newly qualified teachers be treated so long as it didn't effect them. All of my staff stood with our NQTS
Maybe because they don't get sacked for continuous under performing.
Again define performance and how do you know if teachers lose thier jobs or not?
If teachers tried to help out hard pressed parents by demanding change to school costs Which costs? Maybe parents could help out re school costs by demanding the DES funds schools properly. Even Eddie Hobbs couldn't help a Dublin primary school break even during the boom times
and having a school curriculum that's suitable for this day and age, they might get a bit more support

Again a DES issue, what would this curriculum entail?Are you familiar with the NCCA consultative process?

seavill · 23-04-2014 9:11pm

i8mancs wrote: »

Why are we such as easy target for abuse?

Maybe because the country is run by teachers.
Maybe because of the double jobbing that goes on.
Maybe because of the relentless begging letters sent home every other week.
Maybe because of the cost of school uniforms that have to be bought from certain stores because the school gets a cut.
Maybe the high cost of books, work books etc that cant be sold on.
Maybe because they continue to teach Irish and Religion in this day and age.
Maybe because everybody knows teachers who just go through the motions and get increments regardless of performance.
Maybe looking for money to correct tests?
Maybe the way they go on at conferences jeering and heckling the speaker, but this is probably due to bad habits passed on from their colleagues in the Dail:D
Maybe their reluctance to embrace change.
Maybe the way they have let newly qualified teachers be treated so long as it didn't effect them.
Maybe because they don't get sacked for continuous under performing.

If teachers tried to help out hard pressed parents by demanding change to school costs and having a school curriculum that's suitable for this day and age, they might get a bit more support

" I don't see doctors, nurses, gardaí or other public servants ridiculed the way we are."

The Gardai are a running joke.

Which is it We or THEY?

It is the government that controls the majority of your points, we don't control the cost of uniforms, schools don't get a cut of the cost (well no school I have ever been in anyway)
The country is run by EX teachers
Double jobbing is a necessity for a large percentage of teachers who are on 3-10 hours a week, earning less than the dole
Begging letters come because the schools are so badly underfunded - again who is at fault here? take a guess
There are good and bad people in all jobs, some that shouldn't be there but I can't sack my useless colleague can you?
Teachers want change to the JC, just not the ill informed change that RQ is pushing through, the English system that they are getting rid of because it doesn't work
I don't control the cost of any books, do you? At the moment a text book is a necessity as there is no other option for my subject what am I to do?

evolving_doors · 23-04-2014 9:56pm

poolsandles wrote: »

I am sure a lot of you have seen a thread in another forum which I find appalling. It is full of false statements, misconceptions and generalisations of our profession e.g. we are overpaid, have an easy life, are underworked, can't be sacked etc. etc. Some of the statements made are so ignorant I couldn't believe it.

I chose not to contribute to this thread because most of the posts indicated to me that the posters already had their minds made up about our profession and wouldn't listen to a word any teacher had to say.

Not just on boards but socially I am constantly defending my job when I shouldn't have to. The amount of misinformation the general public in my experience have of our profession is unbelievable.

Why are we such as easy target for abuse? I don't see doctors, nurses, gardaí or other public servants ridiculed the way we are. Are we too soft, should we be more assertive and aggressive? Or are we fighting a losing battle at this stage to a public where the majority seem to have no respect for us or the job that we do?

I wouldn't take it to heart Poolsandles.. they crop up at least twice a year. You may be even happier to know that I've found this recent thread (if it's the one i've been reading) quite enlightening. I'm quite surprised by the level of support that the profession has received from non-teachers this time, I know it ain't much but it's more than usual.

Furthermore, I've been listening quite keenly to the reporting of the escapades in the media. Compared to the last few years I think the tide is actually turning in the debate. The interviewees and interviewers were very good in getting THE REAL issues across ..NOT Religion, NOT Honours Maths, NOT Finland and definitely NOT Bloody school Uniforms (As per Ruairi's Smoke-screen). The Real issues emerging in the public opinion are the casualisation of the profession, Class Sizes and cutbacks.

Whether we like it or not, the Megaphone-teacher-ASTI-guy actually opened up the debate a little bit more than a silent audience and general boos. Although Ruairi's idiotic comments really help things to backfire on him no end.

poolsandles · 23-04-2014 9:58pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Actually I don't agree that the unions are the PR problem, rather certain sections of the media willing to twist every single story to portray teachers badly. Not so long ago, when primary teachers and PARENTS protested at class size, it was spun as "whinging teachers."

I think you raise an interesting point here. I was at a union meeting a few years ago where the anti teacher and anti public stance of a particular newspaper was discussed. The people running the meeting advised NQTs to avoid this paper and that they had an interviewer from another paper who could be trusted not to print misinformation about teachers if they wished to tell their story about unemployment, how they felt about separate pay scales etc.

poolsandles · 23-04-2014 10:05pm

Armelodie wrote: »

I wouldn't take it to heart Poolsandles.. they crop up at least twice a year. You may be even happier to know that I've found this recent thread (if it's the one i've been reading) quite enlightening. I'm quite surprised by the level of support that the profession has received from non-teachers this time, I know it ain't much but it's more than usual.

Thanks Armelodie, maybe I am being too sensitive but I just find it hard to stand back and take the abuse thrown at us, the sarcasm, the huge amounts of misinformation etc.

I really hope you are right and the tide is turning. I do think that class sizes as an issue is being recognised a lot more by the general public in recent years particularly since the campaign last year to highlight the issue.

clunked · 24-04-2014 9:35am

poolsandles wrote: »

I think you raise an interesting point here. I was at a union meeting a few years ago where the anti teacher and anti public stance of a particular newspaper was discussed. The people running the meeting advised NQTs to avoid this paper and that they had an interviewer from another paper who could be trusted not to print misinformation about teachers if they wished to tell their story about unemployment, how they felt about separate pay scales etc.

No prizes for guessing which group of newspapers that would be.

acequion · 24-04-2014 11:13am

poolsandles wrote: »

I am sure a lot of you have seen a thread in another forum which I find appalling. It is full of false statements, misconceptions and generalisations of our profession e.g. we are overpaid, have an easy life, are underworked, can't be sacked etc. etc. Some of the statements made are so ignorant I couldn't believe it.

I chose not to contribute to this thread because most of the posts indicated to me that the posters already had their minds made up about our profession and wouldn't listen to a word any teacher had to say.

Not just on boards but socially I am constantly defending my job when I shouldn't have to. The amount of misinformation the general public in my experience have of our profession is unbelievable.

Why are we such as easy target for abuse? I don't see doctors, nurses, gardaí or other public servants ridiculed the way we are. Are we too soft, should we be more assertive and aggressive? Or are we fighting a losing battle at this stage to a public where the majority seem to have no respect for us or the job that we do?

poolsandles, you have absolutely no reason to be defending your job and by doing so you are actually stooping to the level of the ignorant. Nobody should have to defend their job as if it's some kind of guilty pleasure.It's crazy!

But,like you,I find it very upsetting. Upsetting because the keyboard warriors and trashy media are legitimising that most ugly of human traits- Jealousy. And that is exactly what it is. Plain unadorned jealousy and begrugery of anyone who is perceived to "have it cushy". Not enough specifics are known about the high flyers in the public service to bash them and it's not PC to bash those on social welfare. So that leaves middle class teachers and it's grand to bash the daylights out of them,cos ya know,we all went to school and had one of dem teachers who hated us!

It's extremely ugly,akin to a baying Roman mob, totally ignorant and unfounded and anyone who gives it one iota of credence by arguing with these people needs his head examined. Whatever about the past, the vast majority of teachers nowadays go over and above the call of duty despite the fact that it is a very hard job and getting harder. But at the end of the day it's a job,with terms and conditions just like any other. Being expected to justify and apologise for that is like having to apologise for being married,FFS!:rolleyes:

Abuse of Teachers and the Teaching Profession

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