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Roman Catholic and Atheist getting married

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  • 30-11-2006 11:25am
    #1
    8kvscdpglqnyr4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 413 ✭✭


    I would like to hear what Christians have to say about the following (and Atheists also since I know ye seem to contribute to this thread too).

    I'm an Athiest and my fantastic fiancee is Roman Catholic. I was baptised as a Roman Catholic when I was only a few weeks old but have since formally renounced my faith. We are getting married next year in her local Catholic Church. I would prefer to get married in a Registry Office, but a church wedding is very important to her and to her family so I am happy to make the comprimise.

    I would like our marrige to be treated as the marrige of a Roman Catholic and an Athiest. My fiancee's local priest who is the most reasonable and understanding man you could hope to meet, has done quite a bit of research on the subject and it's not possible. Because I was baptised, I am still seen as a Christian (not necessarily an Roman Catholic) in the eyes of the church, even though I have renounced my faith. The marrige would be treated as a mixed marrige where by it's a Roman Catholic marrying a Christian. As part of the documentation for our marrige, the Catholic Church still require my Baptism Cert. Why would they want that ... I'm not a Catholic???

    My opinion is the Catholic Church is not respecting me as an Atheist. Is my analysis of this correct or am I being too harsh?


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    #2
    Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,556 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    good lord, intolerant christians. what is the world coming to


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    #3
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Cassius Full Stepdaughter wrote:
    My opinion is the Catholic Church is not respecting me as an Atheist. Is my analysis of this correct or am I being too harsh?

    Well:

    1. formally you are still a Catholic by rite of baptism.

    2. if you want to be recognised as apostate, you'll need to formally renounce your religion (there's a thread on the Atheists forum, I think)

    3. if you successfully become apostate, you can't get married in Church, as far as I know.

    Personally, speaking as a married atheist, I think you're on a bit of a hiding to nothing here. The Church does not respect atheists, or atheism - it can just about tolerate other religions, because it has to.

    If you have agreed to get married in the camp of the enemy, you will have to live with the fact that they are (theologically) your enemies, and you are tolerating them, as they are tolerating you, for the sake of your fiancee.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #4
    8kvscdpglqnyr4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 413 ✭✭8kvscdpglqnyr4


    Scofflaw wrote:
    if you want to be recognised as apostate, you'll need to formally renounce your religion (there's a thread on the Atheists forum, I think)
    As I said in the original post, I have formally renounced my faith in writing and the priest who is marrying us know this.
    Scofflaw wrote:
    The Church does not respect atheists, or atheism - it can just about tolerate other religions, because it has to.
    I agree.

    Scofflaw wrote:
    If you have agreed to get married in the camp of the enemy, you will have to live with the fact that they are (theologically) your enemies, and you are tolerating them, as they are tolerating you, for the sake of your fiancee.
    This is what I'm finding difficult to do. Out of respect for my everyone involeved (including the Church), I do not want to get married as a Christian. I am not a follower of Christ. I'm trying to understand why the Church can't accept this?

    Surely this has come up before now - I'm not the first Atheist who had tried to marry a Catholic in a church?


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    #5
    Saint_Mel
    Registered Users Posts: 2,598 ✭✭✭Saint_Mel


    Their church their rules!

    Would it really be the end of the world to go along with it?


    PS: not having a go at you or anything, I was baptised, made communion
    and confirmation and all the jazz when I as younger but I have no belief in
    a God or religion, where as my girl friend is quite religious.

    If and when we do decide to get married I'm quite happy to go along with
    it all for the day cos its more hassle than its worth to rock the boat and in
    the end it wont make a blind bit of difference to me as I'll still have my own
    beliefs ... or lack of them as the case is.

    Edit: just copped the irony of my user name seeing as I'm atheist :)
    I didn't pick i for religious reasons.


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    #6
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    > Surely this has come up before now - I'm not the first Atheist who had
    > tried to marry a Catholic in a church?

    No, you're not. But you're the first one that I'm aware of that's had it pre-approved by a priest who doesn't seem to have a problem with it. My understanding is that you can only be married in a catholic church if both participants are catholics, but this chap seems willing to ignore that rule for whatever reason(s).

    Here's the last time that this topic was discussed over in the atheism/agnosticism forum a few months ago:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054938021

    You may find some useful brain-fodder there :)


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    #7
    8kvscdpglqnyr4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 413 ✭✭8kvscdpglqnyr4


    Saint_Mel wrote:
    Their church their rules!
    This is the main reason I posted this topic in the Christianity forum and so far I haven't had a reply from a Christian. It is their church and it is their rules and I'm trying to understand their rules.
    Why does the Catholic Church insist that I am a Christian on my wedding day when I have formally renounced my faith?
    Saint_Mel wrote:
    Would it really be the end of the world to go along with it?
    No it wouldn't. I'm trying to get a better understanding of why I'm going along with it and if there is an alternative I haven't thought of.
    Saint_Mel wrote:
    If and when we do decide to get married I'm quite happy to go along with
    it all for the day cos its more hassle than its worth to rock the boat and in
    the end it wont make a blind bit of difference to me as I'll still have my own
    beliefs ... or lack of them as the case is.
    That's where you and I differ. I'm not happy to stand up in front of my family and friends on one of the most important days of my life and play a charade and lie.


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    #8
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    This is what I'm finding difficult to do. Out of respect for my everyone involeved (including the Church), I do not want to get married as a Christian. I am not a follower of Christ. I'm trying to understand why the Church can't accept this?

    But you are getting married as a Christian - or at least as a Christian does. The Church doesn't accept that you are not a Christian because the position of the Church is that, after baptism, all the renunciation you like doesn't make you not a Catholic - that's really what the 'Catholic' bit means. You will not be able to finalise your apostasy (and even apostasy doesn't make you an atheist - only an apostate Catholic) until you refuse the last rites and die apostate (even then, from their point of view, you are simply dying apostate).

    Catholicism has to respect conversion to other religions, so that other religions respect conversion to Catholicism. Atheism gets no such respect - aside from anything else, there's no-one to negotiate with.

    So, again, in brief, from their point of view, your atheism does not exist. You are simply in the middle of a period of rebellion, or profound doubt. I think you need to accept that.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #9
    Excelsior
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,203 ✭✭✭Excelsior


    It is a silly hypocritical rule. The Roman Catholic Church ought to be refusing to marry you.

    I sympathise with your dilemma and if its any solace, I am sure they will come around to sense and self-consistency over the coming years. Too late for you though.


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    #10
    Saint_Mel
    Registered Users Posts: 2,598 ✭✭✭Saint_Mel


    Cassius Full Stepdaughter wrote:
    That's where you and I differ. I'm not happy to stand up in front of my
    family and friends on one of the most important days of my life and play
    a charade and lie.

    Well, imho, if your happy to make the compromise of going for a church
    wedding I think you might have to.

    Otherwise you might have to try and convince your fiancee and her
    family to respect your beliefs, or lack there of and go for the registry
    office.


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    #11
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Cassius Full Stepdaughter wrote:
    This is the main reason I posted this topic in the Christianity forum and so far I haven't had a reply from a Christian. It is their church and it is their rules and I'm trying to understand their rules.
    Why does the Catholic Church insist that I am a Christian on my wedding day when I have formally renounced my faith?

    Probably haven't had a reply from any Catholics because there are not many on here.

    I'm a Christian, but don't attend Catholic church so I'm not familiar with their rules or the priest which makes it very difficult to render an informed opinion.

    As a Christian though and one who may face the problem as a minister in the future I would have reservations about performing a marriage of two people with such diverse opinions on religion, as serious problems could arise down the road that could lead to the marriage breaking up with children involved.

    Religion isn't the only area where reservations would happen BTW, just in this case they are pronounced.

    You have two options that I can see; acquiesce and get married or stand your ground and refuse to get married under the priests rules. The priest has a moral ground that has to respected as well here. He is not there to react to the whim's of any one who comes knocking at his door.


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    #12
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    From the catholics chruches point of view once you are baptised unless you are excomunicated you are a catholic, even if your soul is in peril from the live you chose to lead and even if you never have any other rites or sacrements you were baptised, they stamped your card.


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    #13
    8kvscdpglqnyr4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 413 ✭✭8kvscdpglqnyr4


    BrianCalgary wrote:
    Probably haven't had a reply from any Catholics because there are not many on here.
    Thanks for the reply Brian. I really appreciate it as I really do want to get the opinions of Christians. If I posted this in the Atheist forum, then I think I would just be "preaching to the choir"!
    BrianCalgary wrote:
    I would have reservations about performing a marriage of two people with such diverse opinions on religion
    I appreciate your honesty. So do you think it is impossible for a believer and a non-believer to marry in your Christian Church?
    BrianCalgary wrote:
    Religion isn't the only area where reservations would happen BTW, just in this case they are pronounced.
    I'm interested to hear more on your views here. My girlfriend and I have different opinions on lots of things (politics, favourite restaurants ... etc) but we have healthy discussions about them. As we have healthy discussion about our different views on Religion so I don't see that problem.
    BrianCalgary wrote:
    The priest has a moral ground that has to respected as well here. He is not there to react to the whim's of any one who comes knocking at his door.
    As I said, I don't have a problem with the priest - he's a nice guy and is just performing his duties as a Catholic Priest. But to me it seems as if the Catholic Church is encouraging segregation in society. I don't want to offend you when I say this, but if you were to refuse to marry a Christian and an Atheist in your Church, then you too are the cause of segregation.


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    #14
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Thaedydal wrote:
    From the catholics chruches point of view once you are baptised unless you are excomunicated you are a catholic, even if your soul is in peril from the live you chose to lead and even if you never have any other rites or sacrements you were baptised, they stamped your card.

    Nah - even if you're excommunicated, you're still a Catholic, just an excommunicate one. I should know.
    Cassius Full Stepdaughter wrote:
    Well, imho, if your happy to make the compromise of going for a church wedding I think you might have to.

    I think one has already agreed to compromise by agreeing to a church wedding - which is why I didn't. Bits of my wife's family are still telling each other lies about what really happened, other bits are still offended because they didn't get an invite to a church wedding that never happened...messy, but what can you do?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #15
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    divil_a_bit you are getting married, have you talked about children ?
    have you tought about raising them and what if she wants them raised in her faith the christianed ?


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    #16
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Scofflaw wrote:
    Nah - even if you're excommunicated, you're still a Catholic, just an excommunicate one. I should know.

    hmmmm
    Well they can have that opinion of they wish and end of my days in this life time if the catholic god wants he can take it up with the ones I serve. :)


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    #17
    8kvscdpglqnyr4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 413 ✭✭8kvscdpglqnyr4


    Scofflaw wrote:
    I think one has already agreed to compromise by agreeing to a church wedding

    Which is where I made my mistake. I assumed that the Catholic Church would allow the marrige of a Catholic and a non-Christian. I was wrong.

    I think BrianCalgary has hit the nail on the head here:
    BrianCalgary wrote:
    You have two options that I can see; acquiesce and get married or stand your ground and refuse to get married under the priests rules.

    But I still can't understand why the Catholic Church wants me to be a Christian on my wedding day when clearly, I am not. I know I'm sounding like a broken record at this stage!!! "Their Church, their rules" ... I understand all of that, but why do they have that rule in the first place?:confused:


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    #18
    8kvscdpglqnyr4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 413 ✭✭8kvscdpglqnyr4


    Thaedydal wrote:
    divil_a_bit you are getting married, have you talked about children ?
    have you tought about raising them and what if she wants them raised in her faith the christianed ?

    We have talked about children and if we do have them, they will not be baptised and will be allowed to make up their mind when they are ready. If my wife to be wishes to take them to church, then I don't have a problem with that. As it is, she only goes to church when she goes to her parents for the weekend.


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    #19
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    > I understand all of that, but why do they have that rule in the first place?

    Politically, you're going for a church wedding, so it's not unreasonable that the church gets to say who can and who can't join the church club and who can and can't go around with the church's (limited) seal of approval. Sociologically, they're just doing that so that they can guarantee their own continuity.

    > they will not be baptised and will be allowed to make up their mind when they
    > are ready. If my wife to be wishes to take them to church, then I don't have
    > a problem with that.

    Making up their own mind is a given these days. No baptism is good too, but in this trading of your future kids time (which looks like what you've been through with your gf), I think it's wiser to trade a baptism with all the bells and whistles against (say) six months on, six months off going to church and no religion classes. Remember that you're not permitting your kids a fair shot at making up their own minds if they've been indoctrinated for a couple of hours per week since before they know who they are. That's how religions work and propagate -- in the eternal game of ideas, they refuse to play off a level field.


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    #20
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Cassius Full Stepdaughter wrote:
    I appreciate your honesty. So do you think it is impossible for a believer and a non-believer to marry in your Christian Church?.

    No I don't think it is impossible.
    Cassius Full Stepdaughter wrote:
    I'm interested to hear more on your views here. My girlfriend and I have different opinions on lots of things (politics, favourite restaurants ... etc) but we have healthy discussions about them. As we have healthy discussion about our different views on Religion so I don't see that problem..

    The issues that tend to rear their ugly heads in marriage are religion and finances. We celebrate our 21st anniversary in a couple of weeks. We have recently read a book called 'The Five Love Languages' that both of us wish we had read 22 years ago. It is owrth a go for both you and your fiancee as you will discover what needs to be done to make each of you feel loved. As an example, my wife needs me to perform action to feel loved, hence she is always doing things for me. I on th eother hand needs words of encouragment, so I am always telling her how great she is. We both have missed th emark though, I need to do things for her and she needs to tell me ho wgreat I am.

    If we do these we each feel loved by the other then we can tackle the bigger issues. PM me if you wish.
    Cassius Full Stepdaughter wrote:
    As I said, I don't have a problem with the priest - he's a nice guy and is just performing his duties as a Catholic Priest. But to me it seems as if the Catholic Church is encouraging segregation in society. I don't want to offend you when I say this, but if you were to refuse to marry a Christian and an Atheist in your Church, then you too are the cause of segregation.


    It would depend on the couple. I recommend a good pre marriage weekend where all of these thing scan be discussed and worked out. I guess if I as a potential minister would feel a lot more comfortable marrying a couple if they had taken that step. I really wouldn't relish the thought of performing a wedding that wasn't going to last. I would need to feel that the vows being made were lasting and true for more than just now.

    I also agree on your comment regarding segregation. Our churches have a balancing act of being an open welcoming place while maintaining a certain boundary on the morals and ethics of their organisation.


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    #21
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    robindch wrote:
    Sociologically, they're just doing that so that they can guarantee their own continuity.

    Remember that you're not permitting your kids a fair shot at making up their own minds if they've been indoctrinated for a couple of hours per week since before they know who they are. That's how religions work and propagate -- in the eternal game of ideas, they refuse to play off a level field.


    Robin I have to be honest here. These types of comments are getting tiresome.

    First of all we do not teach our kids religion in order to 'gurantee our continuity'. We teach our kids the truths that are contained within the pages of our Bible. If at some point in the future my kids wish to attend a different denomination so be it. The church (meaning the Christian Church) will continue because God is eternal.

    The other comment that you tend to use is accusing Christians of indoctrination. Within Alberta we have two school systems that are public, one run by Catholics that other in theory is for protestants but has become secular. So your kids either learn Catholicism in one school, or that God is irrelevant and even has to be supressed in the other.

    They are groups of people teaching truth they way they see it.

    Indoctrination conjures up images of sleep deprivation, oodles of carbohydrates and constant company to enact a loyalty during moments of vulnerability and that is so far from the truth of how churches operate.

    (so the secularists get them for 30 hours per week and the churches for 90 minutes, you're right not a fair level playing field at all)


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    #22
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Cassius Full Stepdaughter wrote:
    As I said, I don't have a problem with the priest - he's a nice guy and is just performing his duties as a Catholic Priest. But to me it seems as if the Catholic Church is encouraging segregation in society. I don't want to offend you when I say this, but if you were to refuse to marry a Christian and an Atheist in your Church, then you too are the cause of segregation.
    What the hell do you think marriage is for? In the eyes of the Catholic Church it represents the birth of a new family with Catholic(or at least Christian it seems) values. For this to happen both parties have to be Catholic or at least Christian.

    Yes, it is segregation. That's the whole point.

    The Catholic church is not respecting you as an Atheist because their entire doctrine is against non-belief.

    Just pretend you're a Christian, the wedding in the church is a fallacy* unless you are a Christian, so you're really just doing it in the church to keep your fiancée happy.

    *fallacy in the eyes of the church, not to do with your love for each other etc.


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    #23
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    BrianCalgary wrote:
    The other comment that you tend to use is accusing Christians of indoctrination. Within Alberta we have two school systems that are public, one run by Catholics that other in theory is for protestants but has become secular. So your kids either learn Catholicism in one school, or that God is irrelevant and even has to be supressed in the other.
    That's not related to Ireland at all, where 92% of primary schools are Catholic.

    BrianCalgary wrote:
    Indoctrination conjures up images of sleep deprivation, oodles of carbohydrates and constant company to enact a loyalty during moments of vulnerability and that is so far from the truth of how churches operate.
    Not really, when I think of indoctrination I think of sitting in my class in primary school being taught by some of the nicest and most interesting people I've ever known, being told lovingly about the virtues of Jesus Christ and made feel good about being a Catholic.

    Took me a full year of thought and questioning when I was 15/16 before I could finally detach myself from Catholicism.


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    #24
    Schuhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭Schuhart


    JC 2K3 wrote:
    Took me a full year of thought and questioning when I was 15/16 before I could finally detach myself from Catholicism.
    A whole year. That's what I call mind control. If you were brought up a Methodist you'd have shifted it all in a week. I hear all it takes to detach yourself from the Church of Ireland is a couple of Panadol.

    Can I suggest that the implicit values take a lot longer to lose than that.

    Which brings me on to my next point. The OP could just consider the values present in the Catholic conception of marriage which, IMHO, is a fine thing in its own right. I was married in a Church, similarly with herself still a subscriber and me not.

    I didn't make any issue of my own disbelief, and felt no particular reason to as I didn't and don't see any conflict between my values or picture of what I was contracting to do and what herself was contracting to do.

    This assumes the pair of you have a similar understanding of what marriage is. Which is sort of an essential precondition, in any event.


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    #25
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    how much of your wife's wish to get have a wedding in church is about the palava of the day and how much is about religion and how much is about doing it infront of a large group of friends and family?

    I think you should get married before hand in a registry office or somewhere and then have you marriage blessed in the church along wedding day stuff, if you don't have problem with you and your marriaged being blessed?

    Shred you baptism certificate and give it to the intransignet priest. Infact I thnk you should take it up with the bishop, your familairity with the priest allows him to kepp the status quo, see what the Bishop says.

    not to get side tracked here but I wonder JC 2K3 did you go to church at xmas after you decided at 16 you weren't christian anymore?


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    #26
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    Schuhart wrote:
    A
    I didn't make any issue of my own disbelief, and felt no particular reason to as I didn't and don't see any conflict between my values or picture of what I was contracting to do and what herself was contracting to do.

    This assumes the pair of you have a similar understanding of what marriage is. Which is sort of an essential precondition, in any event.

    yes marriage is between two people not three.


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    #27
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    lostexpectation wrote:
    not to get side tracked here but I wonder JC 2K3 did you go to church at xmas after you decided at 16 you weren't christian anymore?
    Yes, attending a ceremony once a year with one's family has no bearing on what I believe in. I don't particularly want to attend, but I don't kick up a fuss for no reason.


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    #28
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Cassius Full Stepdaughter wrote:
    But I still can't understand why the Catholic Church wants me to be a Christian on my wedding day when clearly, I am not. I know I'm sounding like a broken record at this stage!!! "Their Church, their rules" ... I understand all of that, but why do they have that rule in the first place?:confused:

    There is a general prohibition on marrying the unbaptised:

    "The Catholic church requires permission for mixed marriages, which it terms all unions between Catholics and baptized non-Catholics, but such marriages are valid, though illicit, without it: the pastor of the Catholic party has authority to grant such permission. Marriages between a Catholic and an unbaptized person are not sacramental, and fall under the impediment of disparity of worship and are invalid without a dispensation, for which authority lies with the ordinary of the place of marriage."

    Marriage - Christian marriage, that is, is a sacrament rather more than a contract. As an apostate, you can be party to the contract, but not strictly speaking the sacrament - in fact, apostasy 'constitutes an impediment to marriage, and the apostasy of husband or wife is a sufficient reason for separation'.

    That is to say, your wife's pastor, who I presume is also the ordinary of the parish, has actually given you a dispensation to marry, without which you could not get married in his church....you have been quite lucky, in fact.

    Do not consider for a moment taking lostexpectation's advice - you will lose all expectation of marriage in church...

    In essence, by allowing your fiancee to marry you, the priest is endangering her soul (yours is already deep into peril) - this is the same objection that was aired by my wife's family (although virtually none of them know I'm an atheist - they think I'm a sort of lapsed Anglican, although that's pretty much the same thing). That is the fundamental reason for the rule - although it also has the sociological effect robindch describes, I think it is cynical to regard this as the reasoning behind it. The priest must have considered that it was more likely that you would return to the fold than that your fiancee would leave it - although of course, he could simply be a bad priest.

    I think that as atheists we often miss the rather important point that people really believe their beliefs....they don't hold them just to annoy atheists.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #29
    Asiaprod
    Registered Users Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    Scofflaw wrote:
    That is to say, your wife's pastor, who I presume is also the ordinary of the parish, has actually given you a dispensation to marry, without which you could not get married in his church....you have been quite lucky, in fact.

    I think that as atheists we often miss the rather important point that people really believe their beliefs....they don't hold them just to annoy atheists.
    Nice post Scofflaw. OP, I would imagine that getting married to someone you love is a far more important issue than that of doing it in a church.
    As Thaedydal pointed out, the issue for me would be raising/not raising any kids. If it makes you feel any better, get married in the registry office first and then have the Church wedding:)


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    #30
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    JC 2K3 wrote:
    Yes, attending a ceremony once a year with one's family has no bearing on what I believe in. I don't particularly want to attend, but I don't kick up a fuss for no reason.


    OH BULLSEYE there your indoctrination BrianCalgary, still going to xmas after rejecting his faith. The OP's conerns are all about indocrtination. He's considering it well but will end up in church all the same.


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    #31
    8kvscdpglqnyr4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 413 ✭✭8kvscdpglqnyr4


    BrianCalgary wrote:
    I recommend a good pre marriage weekend where all of these thing scan be discussed and worked out.
    We have taken part in a pre-marrige course over a weekend and both of us found it to be very beneficial. We did meet with my girlfriends priest on a few occasions to talk about our conflicting beliefs and we've also discussed it with our families and very close friends.

    I thought we had worked it out as the priest who was marrying us was perfectly happy for me, as an Atheist, to marry my girlfriend in his church. I would not have to sign the prenuptial forms that apply to Catholics only, I would obviously not receive the eucharist (I don't think he'd give it to me even if I wanted it!) ... etc. But after he talked to the powers that be (the bishop and the Canon lawyer) he tells me I have to give him by baptism cert and I will be treated as a Christian.


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