LOI rumours etc

anncoates · 09-04-2014 12:08pm

frimpong wrote: »

Bohs and Shels have absolutely no need for a 8-10000 capacity stadium. 4-6000 is more than enough for them.

It won't be used just for those games so might as well make it as big as possible if the cost isn't prohibitive.

Lovely Bloke · 09-04-2014 12:19pm

AFAIK the Tolka site is no good for UEFA regulations either, because there is only access on one side of the ground (river on the other).

There are also problems with the river itself, that area is prone to flooding, so building or rebuilding foundations over that side would be hugely precarious.

Personally, unless the ground is torn down and totally rebuilt, I think a move out to Ballymun is the best bet for both clubs.

Who even owns TP at this stage? Nama? A developer? DCC? Certainly not Shels.

Gavin "shels" · 09-04-2014 12:32pm

anncoates wrote: »

It won't be used just for those games so might as well make it as big as possible if the cost isn't prohibitive.

Mostly it would, the FAI had planned to use Home Farm for Under-Age matches but they opted for Tallaght after the redevelopment of Home Farm (for Shels) was rejected by Home Farm members.

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

AFAIK the Tolka site is no good for UEFA regulations either, because there is only access on one side of the ground (river on the other).

There are also problems with the river itself, that area is prone to flooding, so building or rebuilding foundations over that side would be hugely precarious.

Personally, unless the ground is torn down and totally rebuilt, I think a move out to Ballymun is the best bet for both clubs.

Who even owns TP at this stage? Nama? A developer? DCC? Certainly not Shels.

A combo of all three afaik. Ossie Kilkenny, with DCC holding some interest and NAMA (think they just held the house/old office)..... with the Donnellys previously holding the lease.

Paz-CCFC · 09-04-2014 1:26pm

Gavin shels wrote: »

And Rovers need a 6,000 seater why? Generally it's better to have something to supply future demand (European matches, possible Cup finals, etc...) rather than stick to the bear minimum. But sure that's logic...........

There's a problem with making it too big, though. Some grounds in this country are too big for the teams involved. Eg, the Cross holds just under 7,500 (reduced to 6,900 recently due to broken seats, but could easily be brought back up). For most of the matches we play, the capacity is way in excess for our needs. We've only gotten one full house of 7,000+ in the past eight years (and the money all went to the MFA, anyway). We've generally been averaging about 2,000-3,000, and in the First Division, some of the crowds were barely breaking a thousand. It looks terrible to have 6/7ths of the stadium as empty seats. If it were a bit smaller - 5,000, for example - we'd be better off, I think. Yes, we would have been capped for the Rovers and Pats crowds recently, but overall, we'd benefit. The place would look fuller - even an average crowd of 3,000 would fill most of the stadium. This would look better, the atmosphere would be better for matches and it would be more attractive to new fans. It would make us look better if we could say more often that we're getting (near) full-houses.

I'd agree with Dan, with a modest-sized stadium with scope to increase it if the demand was there. Imo, something like a 2,000 stand along one touchline and two 1,000 capacity stands behind either goal would be good; maybe even a bit smaller. Then have the other side open for development of another 2,000ish stand, if it were consistently being filled. A temporary stand could be installed, too, to cater for once-off matches like Europe, "glamour friendlies" etc. The more boisterous fans of Bohs/Shels could also take either goal-end, and keep it as the away section when they're "away" to each other.

Amirani · 09-04-2014 2:05pm

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

I'd agree with Dan, with a modest-sized stadium with scope to increase it if the demand was there. Imo, something like a 2,000 stand along one touchline and two 1,000 capacity stands behind either goal would be good; maybe even a bit smaller. Then have the other side open for development of another 2,000ish stand, if it were consistently being filled. A temporary stand could be installed, too, to cater for once-off matches like Europe, "glamour friendlies" etc. The more boisterous fans of Bohs/Shels could also take either goal-end, and keep it as the away section when they're "away" to each other.

While I agree with the general gist of your post, a 4000 capacity stadium is way too small. Bohs had a bigger crowd than that in Dalymount 2 weeks ago. The last thing any club needs to be doing is turning away fans because they lack capacity.

6000 seats or so would probably be a good number to aim at. Tallaght is a pretty good size, even if Rovers only fill it on the odd occasion.

djpbarry · 09-04-2014 3:21pm

UEFA Category 3 is the absolute minimum standard that any new stadia should meet, but I would agree that building anything less than about 5 - 6,000 seats seams a bit pointless. Yes, it's going to be relatively empty for most league games, but as said above, we really don't want a situation where any kind of big attendance means people get turned away.

The only solution would be for clubs to access to more than one ground to meet different attendance requirements, but that's not terribly realistic. Well, not outside Dublin anyway. Of course if the FAI and the GAA could start co-operating in a meaningful way, that would help matters no end and we could have proper multi-purpose municipal stadia throughout the country of various sizes.

CHealy · 09-04-2014 3:51pm

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

There's a problem with making it too big, though. Some grounds in this country are too big for the teams involved. Eg, the Cross holds just under 7,500 (reduced to 6,900 recently due to broken seats, but could easily be brought back up). For most of the matches we play, the capacity is way in excess for our needs. We've only gotten one full house of 7,000+ in the past eight years (and the money all went to the MFA, anyway). We've generally been averaging about 2,000-3,000, and in the First Division, some of the crowds were barely breaking a thousand. It looks terrible to have 6/7ths of the stadium as empty seats. If it were a bit smaller - 5,000, for example - we'd be better off, I think.

What are you talking about, we averaged something close to 1700 both years in the 1st Division.

Paz-CCFC · 09-04-2014 4:07pm

NiallSparky wrote: »

While I agree with the general gist of your post, a 4000 capacity stadium is way too small. Bohs had a bigger crowd than that in Dalymount 2 weeks ago. The last thing any club needs to be doing is turning away fans because they lack capacity.

6000 seats or so would probably be a good number to aim at. Tallaght is a pretty good size, even if Rovers only fill it on the odd occasion.

The recent derbies at Dalymount have mostly been under 3,000, with one just over and the one last week with estimates ranging from about 3,500 to a touch over 4,000. Even the one's in Tallaght have been about 4,500 in the last few years.

I get where your coming from, wanting to make hay while the sun shines, but we have to be mindful of our limitations across the league. A 6,000 capacity stadium would more than double the combined average attendances of its tenants. Bohs matches would be 75% empty based on what they're getting now and Shels even more empty. I think having a bigger % of a smaller stadium filled and selling it out more often has more benefits. We want as many fans in, but if it's sold out, that won't turn people away long term. It makes the club very appealing. People who missed out will more likely buy there ticket early next time and maybe come to a smaller match where they're better likely to secure a ticket. People who go more often will more likely buy a season ticket, to ensure they'll get into the big matches. Overall, I think it'll help to bring a larger, steadier average and when crowds of close to 4,000 are coming on a regular basis, that would be the time to expand.

I think it's better to work towards a large, steady average rather than living off the windfalls of rare bumper crowds. From City's first three matches, our average attendance is just over 4,500. But one of those attendances was 2,600, against Bray. While the 5,500ish at Pats and Rovers shows there's a big potential, the relatively small Bray crowd shows the other side of it. I'd have preferred if all three matches had been 4,500. A more level average, rather than crazy highs and lows, gives a more steady income stream and more predictability. Something, which a club can then build on and slowly increase crowds across the board, not just for big matches.

eire4 · 10-04-2014 6:56pm

Gavin shels wrote: »

It was an April Fools man, the only type of "merge" both clubs will be doing will be a groundshare, Tolka/Ballymun or possibly Dalyer.

Haha got me on that one. I never noticed the date at all.

geeky · 10-04-2014 7:48pm

Honestly, I don't subscribe to the hugely optimistic 'if you build it, they will come' projections of Pat Dolan (I remember watching, mouth agape, as he called for a string of 25,000 seater stadiums), but it's worth noting that a decent, comfortable stadium with nearby parking and transport links can help to boost attendances too.

While a 6,000 seater would be bigger than either club needs right now, it allows for a bit of organic growth in the following. Also, if DCC or Fingal were considering the Tallaght model, it wouldn't just be built for the convenience of football clubs: you'd need it to be capable of serving a wide range of events.

hjkl · 10-04-2014 8:13pm

NiallSparky wrote: »

While I agree with the general gist of your post, a 4000 capacity stadium is way too small. Bohs had a bigger crowd than that in Dalymount 2 weeks ago. The last thing any club needs to be doing is turning away fans because they lack capacity.

6000 seats or so would probably be a good number to aim at. Tallaght is a pretty good size, even if Rovers only fill it on the odd occasion.

That was the biggest derby crowd in years. The last few years they have been around 3-3500 in Dalymount for the derby.
Bohs get about 1500-2000 at games. Shels get about 500-1000. They do not a 6,000 seater stadium. Only teams that can realistically get 6,000 people to at a home game are Cork City and Shamrock Rovers.

A 4-5000 seater is more than enough for Bohs and Shels. A 2,000 seater stand on either side and leave the other two open for development incase of the minute possiblity either club will ever require 6,000+ seats.

Amirani · 10-04-2014 9:46pm

frimpong wrote: »

That was the biggest derby crowd in years. The last few years they have been around 3-3500 in Dalymount for the derby.
Bohs get about 1500-2000 at games. Shels get about 500-1000. They do not a 6,000 seater stadium. Only teams that can realistically get 6,000 people to at a home game are Cork City and Shamrock Rovers.

A 4-5000 seater is more than enough for Bohs and Shels. A 2,000 seater stand on either side and leave the other two open for development incase of the minute possiblity either club will ever require 6,000+ seats.

Looking at averages is pointless. Anyone with a decent grasp of statistics will release the fallacy of this in this situation. It's far more intuitive to use the max or 90th percentile. The derby crowd that Bohs got this year was the biggest since 2009/2010 - not exactly decades ago. You're also ignoring the bump you'd expect from moving to a new area, Rovers were getting fairly ****e crowds in Tolka.

Building a stadium of 4000 is ridiculous and typical of the small-minded thinking that permeates the league. The marginal cost of an extra 2000 seats is minuscule compared to the benefits of being capable of hosting your attendances from the 90th-100th percentile - the very ones that by definition are crowds that include non-regular/new supporters. Building a stadium that doesn't allow for these potential attendances is beyond silly.

hjkl · 10-04-2014 10:15pm

NiallSparky wrote: »

Looking at averages is pointless. Anyone with a decent grasp of statistics will release the fallacy of this in this situation. It's far more intuitive to use the max or 90th percentile. The derby crowd that Bohs got this year was the biggest since 2009/2010 - not exactly decades ago. You're also ignoring the bump you'd expect from moving to a new area, Rovers were getting fairly ****e crowds in Tolka.

Building a stadium of 4000 is ridiculous and typical of the small-minded thinking that permeates the league. The marginal cost of an extra 2000 seats is minuscule compared to the benefits of being capable of hosting your attendances from the 90th-100th percentile - the very ones that by definition are crowds that include non-regular/new supporters. Building a stadium that doesn't allow for these potential attendances is beyond silly.

You're over estimating the ability of Bohs and Shels to attract crowds.

Amirani · 10-04-2014 11:00pm

frimpong wrote: »

You're over estimating the ability of Bohs and Shels to attract crowds.

My basic point is that it would be foolish to build a stadium that wouldn't be able to cater for crowds that they have attracted in the recent past. Obviously the derby crowd a couple of weeks back is an outlier when looking at the past few years, but not so much in the years before that when both clubs were successful.

I know and agree that neither club will regularly attract crowds of 6000 or even 4000. However, if they do exceed the 4000 figure even 5-10% of the time (which they have done regularly within the past decade), then having a 4000 seater stadium is a big mistake. The marginal cost for an extra 1000/2000 seats is very small, I don't see any logical reason to inhibit both clubs' ability to attract supporters for the more glamorous fixtures.

Gavin "shels" · 10-04-2014 11:03pm

frimpong wrote: »

You're over estimating the ability of Bohs and Shels to attract crowds.

Because Cork, Rovers and Sligo have always been getting thousands at matches?

djpbarry · 11-04-2014 11:06am

geeky wrote: »

Honestly, I don't subscribe to the hugely optimistic 'if you build it, they will come' projections of Pat Dolan (I remember watching, mouth agape, as he called for a string of 25,000 seater stadiums), but it's worth noting that a decent, comfortable stadium with nearby parking and transport links can help to boost attendances too.

Yep, there are some pretty good examples here in the UK of big jumps in attendances following moves to new grounds (e.g. Chesterfield and Rotherham). The tricky part is retaining the bigger crowds.

marwelie · 11-04-2014 6:25pm

Tallaght will probably never be full for an LOI game but ,as it stands, despite it being the best football facility in the country (bar Landsdowne Road) it still isn't big enough to hold European football. We had to bring in extra seating to play our matches at home in the Europa League, irrespective of whether we filled them or not. Minimum of 8,500 seats required.

I wish they would build at both ends though because it is the coldest place on earth to watch football when the wind takes hold in there.

CSF · 11-04-2014 6:32pm

marwelie wrote: »

Tallaght will probably never be full for an LOI game but ,as it stands, despite it being the best football facility in the country (bar Landsdowne Road) it still isn't big enough to hold European football. We had to bring in extra seating to play our matches at home in the Europa League, irrespective of whether we filled them or not. Minimum of 8,500 seats required.

I wish they would build at both ends though because it is the coldest place on earth to watch football when the wind takes hold in there.

Turners Cross surely? The lack of anything at either end gives off a bit of a ****e vibe. Tallaght may be shiny and new but it rarely gives off the vibe that you're in a proper football ground. Better than Tolka granted, but Tolka definitely more built for atmosphere.

dfx- · 11-04-2014 10:35pm

marwelie wrote: »

Tallaght will probably never be full for an LOI game but ,as it stands, despite it being the best football facility in the country (bar Landsdowne Road) it still isn't big enough to hold European football. We had to bring in extra seating to play our matches at home in the Europa League, irrespective of whether we filled them or not. Minimum of 8,500 seats required.

Tallaght was filled for the Derry home game in 2009 with only one stand open..

I'd say Bohs in 2009 and the opening game against Pats with the East Stand would be very very close to full. Game where Twigg won with a penalty, huge amounts of people there.

Amirani · 11-04-2014 11:40pm

dfx- wrote: »

Tallaght was filled for the Derry home game in 2009 with only one stand open..

I'd say Bohs in 2009 and the opening game against Pats with the East Stand would be very very close to full. Game where Twigg won with a penalty, huge amounts of people there.

Yeah I remember there being a big struggle for tickets for the first few Bohs games in Tallaght. One in particular I ended up being in the Rovers section. Tallaght has had 5000+ for a good few league games.

dreamers75 · 13-04-2014 1:18am

Pats fans (myself included) called Sean Hoare as the greatest thing ever last year. How long we hold onto him is irrelevant.

Maynooth college fans would have seen him up close, hes the reason Bucko let Kenna go. Chap has a future in football at a higher level, hes our next Jake Carroll.

steirishrover · 13-04-2014 1:26am

dreamers75 wrote: »

Pats fans (myself included) called Sean Hoare as the greatest thing ever last year. How long we hold onto him is irrelevant.

Maynooth college fans would have seen him up close, hes the reason Bucko let Kenna go. Chap has a future in football at a higher level, hes our next Jake Carroll.

He was fantastic last night, looked very assured & confident. A real leader of men & captain in the future. Hopefully he stays with us for a couple seasons to develop on these shores

aliveandkicking · 13-04-2014 10:13am

dreamers75 wrote: »

Pats fans (myself included) called Sean Hoare as the greatest thing ever last year. How long we hold onto him is irrelevant.

Maynooth college fans would have seen him up close, hes the reason Bucko let Kenna go. Chap has a future in football at a higher level, hes our next Jake Carroll.

Yeah he was impressive on Friday night. That was the first time I've seen him play and he does look like he could be the real deal. What kind of contract have you got him on?

PS mods, what's the story with this thread? I thought the LOI 2014 thread was set up to replace this one since it's become so large. People seem to be using both so it's a bit confusing.

overshoot · 16-08-2014 2:56pm

Fanad United pulling out of the u19 league apparently. was wondering would the new format have an effect, their longest trip last year after Dundalk would have been Finn Harps!

Gavin "shels" · 27-10-2014 10:29pm

Let the merry-go-round begin...

dreamers75 · 27-10-2014 10:49pm

Fagan Forrester Bermo and Fahey offered 2 year deals from Rovers.

Fahey turned them down.
Fagan going to Chesterfield.

Finn Mc Guinness and Kilduff to us.

doncarlos · 27-10-2014 10:57pm

dreamers75 wrote: »

Fagan Forrester Bermo and Fahey offered 2 year deals from Rovers.

Fahey turned them down.
Fagan going to Chesterfield.

Finn Mc Guinness and Kilduff to us.

Some rumours floating about that Dundalk maybe offering two year deals. This might have swayed Boyle as talk is now he might have done a U turn and will stay with Dundalk.

Also talk of us interested in Finn to replace Cardiff bound Towell and Rogers from Sligo.

Gavin "shels" · 27-10-2014 11:26pm

Imagine Dylan Connolly, Lee Desmond and Ryan Robinson will be Pats or Rovers bound. Raging about Robinson, could have really cashed in on him over the summer.

kksaints · 27-10-2014 11:30pm

Gavin shels wrote: »

Imagine Dylan Connolly, Lee Desmond and Ryan Robinson will be Pats or Rovers bound. Raging about Robinson, could have really cashed in on him over the summer.

Thought he was Everton bound?

Gavin "shels" · 27-10-2014 11:35pm

kksaints wrote: »

Thought he was Everton bound?

He was over with them during the summer for 2 weeks, supposedly impressed but no idea what happened.

LOI rumours etc

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