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Unregistered Vehicle and VRT

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  • 17-06-2012 5:47pm
    #1
    ngk74
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭


    Hello,

    This applies to a tractor but could equally apply to any unregistered vehicle in the State e.g. a car shell, which is eventually built into a roadworthy vehicle and which has no documentation.

    The vehicle in question (a 1964 tractor) was NEVER registered in the State, but has been in the State since around that year.

    That was not uncommon as tractors were bought and used solely on the farm.

    If I now wish to register it I will have to pay VRT on it, which is €200 for vintage (over 30 years) vehicles and tractors.

    To do this, I have to present it at an NCT centre first. But they will not be able to check the chassis or engine numbers against any documentation as there is none. Nor can they determine if I am the owner as I have no invoice etc.

    I received this from a man, who is now deceased. There is no way to obtain a date of import from a dealer as these are long gone.

    I have read an article, where a man who bought an unregistered 1970 tractor was, in addition to the 200 VRT, charged by the revenue for all the years the tractor was thus assumed in the state as he could not determine/prove a date of import.

    One has 30 days from the date of import to present a vehicle for VRT, otherwise technically the vehicle is illegally unregistered and can be seized.

    1) So what does the revenue/NCT do with a vehicle that is presented with no documentation?

    2) Does anyone know how revenue normally act in such cases? Do they just register it or look for import documentation failing which, they charge an amount back to the year of manufacture?
    Tagged:


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    #2
    Basil Fawlty
    Registered Users Posts: 290 ✭✭Basil Fawlty


    If its a UK reg just apply to the DVLA in Swansea for a permanent export licence. This will be enough for you to register the car in Ireland, they are given out freely and will have all the details like VIN engine number etc. As for an invoice just type one up yourself. Its that simple.


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    #3
    macplaxton
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 2,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭macplaxton


    No idea on how the Revenue would decide this.

    The raising of an additional charge is at the discretion of the Revenue. If sufficient acceptable evidence is presented to the Revenue this may sway any decision they make on it.

    The NCTS are the penpushers on this, but the decisions and calculations are still the responsibility of the Revenue.

    I would contact the Revenue and run this "hypothetical" situation past them. If a vehicle was sat in a barn for example with no wheels on, or engine in it, it could be argued that it couldn't be registered in any case as it did not meet the criteria for a "mechanically propelled vehicle".

    I'm sure there is a way of doing it correctly, but there would appear to be many hoops to jump through to get to the end and then there is the question of whether that decision would be fair and agreeable, or not.


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    #4
    macplaxton
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 2,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭macplaxton


    ciarancapri wrote: »
    If its a UK reg just apply to the DVLA in Swansea for a permanent export licence. This will be enough for you to register the car in Ireland, they are given out freely...

    It's not that simple at all.

    The OP say the c. 1964 tractor has been in State since around c . 1964. It's not going to be on ANY register, as it's never been registered.

    Even if it was registered in 1964 in the UK and left soon after, it's not going to be on the DVLA database as that was only set up in the mid-1970s. There are plenty of barn-find cars that aren't on that database and the DVLA has the V765 system of dealing with cars that have either been previously registered and not on the DVLA computer, or NEVER registered.


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    #5
    ngk74
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭ngk74


    ciarancapri wrote: »
    If its a UK reg just apply to the DVLA in Swansea for a permanent export licence. This will be enough for you to register the car in Ireland, they are given out freely and will have all the details like VIN engine number etc. As for an invoice just type one up yourself. Its that simple.

    Thanks, that is good info but the vehicle was never registered also not in the UK. I suppose I could argue with the DVLa though not registered in the UK it WAS built there (from chassis number) and thus HAD to be exported from there. Doubtful if they would issue a confration of export though and even if they did, they would have to mark it as exported 1964 which might lead to back arrears being charged from our revenue. So it changes nothing for me I am afraid.

    I do not think that the NCT or Revenue would accept a self made invoice though. :(
    I'm sure there is a way of doing it correctly

    The correct way is what I am looking for. It is not unusual esp with old tractors to have an unregistered vehicle and consequently, no paperwork. So it must not be new to revenue. Unfortunately when I contacted them, the did not seem to have much clue.

    Also, technically I think it is now illegal to have an unregistered vehicle albeit I cannot see anyone making a fuss over an old tractor.

    That is until they consider charging arrears for VRT ... like our friend with the 1970 tractor ...


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    #6
    macplaxton
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 2,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭macplaxton


    The vehicle can only be registered when it is or becomes "a mechanically-propelled vehicle". If it's a box of bits then it can't get registered.

    There are ways of doing it. Some time back we were talking about this truck:

    121178.jpg

    The thread is here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055972071&page=2 (from post #29) It appeared before too.

    The only thing is, that was registered before the 30 days rule came in. It was done under the old 24 hour / end of next working day rule was in force and the useless ***** at the NCTS had nothing to do with it.


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    #7
    ngk74
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭ngk74


    The tractor is capable of mechanical propulsion i.e. it could be presented for registration.

    It has been in my shed for a number of years exceeding easily the 30 days ...

    lovely Benz by the way


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    #8
    macplaxton
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 2,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭macplaxton


    Ok, let's look at a worst case scenario:

    If the year is know to be 1964 and only the year is known.

    It would be registered as 1st January 1964. That would be 17702 days "unregistered". Back tax is 0.1% of VRT. 0.1% of €200 is 20c a day = €3540.40.

    However, I can't see the Revenue charging that in the end, even though they might try it on initially...

    It's a variable outcome, because it really depend on the deciding officer and the evidence before them.


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    #9
    ngk74
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭ngk74


    macplaxton wrote: »

    It's a variable outcome, because it really depend on the deciding officer and the evidence before them.

    Yes, that is what I think too. So really, it would appear that if they were to rigidly stick to the legislation, they should charge the VRT back to 1964.

    You know,, the country is in such a state that I would not put it past them especially IF the legislation allows it

    In fairness though, I note all the revenue documentation says they *may* charge arrears i.e. they might/might not.

    This is what happened to our friend with the 1970 Ferguson:

    http://www.farmersjournal.ie/site/viewgalleryspecial.php?newsid=15

    whilst arrears of 'road tax' is mentioned, I think the mean VRT. I refer to the 0.1%/day mentioned.

    I presume that is why one often sees ads looking for log books for certain models of (unregistered) vehicles to 'avoid/evade' all this??

    But then the chassis nos would not match, but then again once they have a log book who will check this?? (although technically it is defrauding the state out of the VRT)


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    #10
    Silvera
    Registered Users Posts: 4,031 ✭✭✭Silvera


    That story from the Farmers Journal is a bit unreal?!
    How can Revenue charge for back-tax when the tractor may never have been used on a public road??


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    #11
    ngk74
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭ngk74


    That story from the Farmers Journal is a bit unreal?!
    How can Revenue charge for back-tax when the tractor may never have been used on a public road??

    As I said, I think they actually mean VRT instead of road tax as is stated in the article.

    Even if it were road tax, the Revenue do not know that it was not used on a public road and thus would assume it was.

    Note that the statute of limitations does not apply to Revenue AND the burden of proof (contrary to all other areas of law) is on You and not Revenue - guilty until proven innocent - someon has to pay for Berties pension

    I think it is very unfair to back charge in such a situation - and then at the current rate! A couple of years ago the registration fee was only €50 but they back charge at 0.1% of 200??

    And in 1970 there was no VRT ...

    The whole lot is hit and miss from what I can see ...


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    #12
    macplaxton
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 2,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭macplaxton


    I suggest finding an official somewhere futher up the food-chain, the front line staff will not have a clue.

    The Revenue official I spoke to some time ago about "barn-finds", said that they "may" raise a charge, but I said that if it didn't qualify as a "mechanically propelled vehicle", it couldn't be registered until such time as it became so. The impression I got was they had bigger fish to fry.

    I'm a bit lost as to the arithmetic involved in the article's example ???


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    #13
    jimmyw
    Registered Users Posts: 3,383 ✭✭✭jimmyw


    We had a similar issue with registering a tractor here that was already here for a long time before we done it for the very first time.I dont know if its any good to you.

    Thread here

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71686579


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    #14
    ngk74
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭ngk74


    macplaxton wrote: »

    The Revenue official I spoke to some time ago ..., said that they "may" raise a charge, ...

    This is exactly the problem. The revenue and NCT sites state vaguely that having an unregistered vehicle "may" give rise to a back charge.

    There seems to be no definitive answer - at least one that is made public.

    They probably have a better return from chasing cars that are brought in across the border, but as you see from the FJ article, they can if they want charge on seemingly mundane transactions too.

    You could go to the NCT centre and they might just charge you the 200 and thats it or you might meet a jobsworth and he refers it to Revenue where another jobsworth decides to charge you. Then you can do very little about it.

    Would be good if they made a rule one way or the other.

    By the way, I read in the Revenue's VRT literature that if you complete a rebuild of a vehicle that that should actually be referred to the NSAI first for inspection before the registration process.

    So if you go to the NCT and admit it is a rebuild they should refer you to the NSAI. If you say it is not a rebuild, they should ask you where has it benn all this time? So you can't win.
    I'm a bit lost as to the arithmetic involved in the article's example ???
    .1% of €50 being 5cent/day is 18.25 /year. At exactly 36 years it comes to the 657 they mention. Maybe the event occurred a couple of years before the article was written and maybe the 657 is the back tax and doesnt include the 50 reg fee.


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    #15
    ngk74
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭ngk74


    jimmyw wrote: »
    We had a similar issue with registering a tractor here that was already here for a long time before we done it for the very first time.I dont know if its any good to you.

    Thread here

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71686579

    Thanks for that.

    i had a look at it. Am I right in saying you had a tractor with a plate, which dd not belong to it?

    You thus had an unregistered traCTOR?

    It was actually correct that you should have brought it to the NCT centre.

    It sounds like the people you talked too were not bothered and let it be registered without too much effort.


    Lucky.This is the thing with the revenue/nct/motor tax office - it could have gone either way. No consistency

    Mad to even have to fer paying back tax on a vintage tractor - tax is more than what she is worth !

    Nice David Brown by the way. Must have very little hours.


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    #16
    macplaxton
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 2,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭macplaxton


    ngk74 wrote: »
    .1% of €50 being 5cent/day is 18.25 /year. At exactly 36 years it comes to the 657 they mention. Maybe the event occurred a couple of years before the article was written and maybe the 657 is the back tax and doesnt include the 50 reg fee.

    I sort of see now, but back tax based on €50 Cat C VRT is obviously the amount that was charged before 1st May 2011, and the Revenue sub-contracted the paperwork/inspections to NCTS on 1st Sept 2010.

    I'm not saying the man didn't get humped for the cash, but there are a number of inconsistencies with the numbers. 36% is the VRT percentage applied to vehicles under 30 years old with no emissions data for instance, so has bugger all to do with that case.

    You have PM by the way ;)


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    #17
    ngk74
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭ngk74


    macplaxton wrote: »
    I sort of see now, but back tax based on €50 Cat C VRT is obv iously the amount that was charged before 1st May 2011, and the Revenue sub-contracted the paperwork/inspections to NCTS on 1st Sept 2010.

    Yes, the article is from 21.may.2011. The €50 reg charge was in place until 30 April 2011.
    I'm not saying the man didn't get humped for the cash, but there are a number of inconsistencies with the numbers. 36% is the VRT percentage applied to vehicles under 30 years old with no emissions data for instance, so has bugger all to do with that case.

    36.5% or 0.1% per day is the rate charged for late registration regardless of vehicle class, emissions or otherwise(they stated just 36% in the article but this is prob what they mean) . As a penalty It equates to the highest rate of VRT available.

    Sec 62 Finance Act no. 2 2008


    Interesting to read is also the following in relation to imposing a charge:

    "1.4.8.7 Implementation of the above provisions

    These provisions now allow Revenue to raise an additional charge for VRT in line with other tax heads. In normal circumstances the additional charge is calculated at the time of registration by Revenue Systems. However, there may be a situation where an official may wish to raise the charge after the registration event takes place.
    In such circumstances the provisions should be applied in a sensible manner and additional charges should be raised only when the official is satisfied that an additional charge is due and payable."

    Source: Revenue Operational manual VRT Section 1: Procedures and Processes in Revenue

    So I am not so clear if this 'sensible manner' applies to applying a charge in any case or a charge after a reg fee has been taken. I would read it as the former!


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    #18
    ngk74
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭ngk74


    Also of interest:

    1.4.8.3 Procedures for calculating outstanding VRT

    Calculations of outstanding VRT due on late Registration
    The NCTS captures the date the vehicle came into the State and Revenue systems calculate if the vehicle has remained unregistered in the State longer than the prescribed time (i.e. appointment with NCTS not booked within 7 days of the vehicle entering the State and vehicle registration not completed within 30 days of the vehicle entering the State), and if the vehicle has not been held by an authorised TAN holder the system will automatically calculate an outstanding VRT charge.
    In this regard, when the outstanding charge is raised, the NCTS will request payment of both the VRT calculated and the outstanding charge of VRT due to late registration, as calculated by Revenue, at the time of registration.

    Where a vehicle which is subject to additional VRT, is to be registered by an authorised Revenue officer at a Revenue office, the Revenue officer should examine:

     the data collected and entered for the vehicle,

     existing Revenue information including any VRT 32 forms issued by the Enforcement Units in relation to the vehicle, and

     other relevant information to hand, before determining that an outstanding charge is appropriate


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    #19
    macplaxton
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 2,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭macplaxton


    ngk74 wrote: »
    36.5% or 0.1% per day is the rate charged for late registration regardless of vehicle class, emissions or otherwise(they stated just 36% in the article but this is prob what they mean) . As a penalty It equates to the highest rate of VRT available.

    No, the maths presented is still a bit flaky. A penalty charge is based on the VRT due, not the highest rate available. In the €50 case.

    €50 x 0.1% per day = €0.05 per day
    €0.05 per day x 365 days in a year (wonder if they count 366 for leap years :D) = €18.25 per year.
    €18.25 per year x 40 years = €730
    €50 VRT + €730 = €780

    An additional charge of €657 is either 36 years 6 months @ €18, or 36 years @ €18.25. But then they mention in the paragraph before "a total of over 40 years" Seems they can't make their mind up in the report whether it was cleared in 2006 or 2010/11. 36% per year isn't quite 0.1% per day, as you correctly state, it's 36.5% (or technically 36.6% for a leap year)

    Going back to my original worst case calculation:
    €200 x 0.1% per day = €0.20 per day
    €0.20 per day x 365 days in a year = €73 per year.
    €73 per year x 48 years 170 days = €3538 (01/01/64 to 18/6/12)
    €200 VRT + €3538 = €3738 due. (add €2.40 if including leap years :p)

    and the best case is €200.

    I think it would track down the yellow lorry man and ask them what they did in his case?

    I would argue that at worst, you should only be responsible for paying back tax from the point it became a mechanically propelled vehicle. e.g. the date at which the engine goes back in, as it was found without the engine in it (which was sitting next to it) and which was sometime after the previous owner passed away.


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    #20
    hi5
    Registered Users Posts: 3,105 ✭✭✭hi5


    Ireland is slowly but surely been brought up to date with the rest of europe.
    As your tractor has no identity and never had then you may have to go through the IVA conformity proceedure, to have it verified and catagorised as an actual tractor.
    I know that passanger jeeps being converted to commercial vehicles if not factory built are having to do this now.

    http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Your-Vehicle/About-your-Vehicle/What-Category-is-my-vehicle/Tractors-/

    http://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Certification/Automotive-Certification/Motor-Vehicle-Approval-Schemes/IVA---Individual-Vehicle-Approval.aspx


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    #21
    ngk74
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭ngk74


    macplaxton wrote: »
    A penalty charge is based on the VRT due, not the highest rate available. In the €50 case.

    No, no :D If you look at the Finance Act no. 2 2008 Section 62, it states quite clearly that an additional charge is levied at 0.1% using the formula

    AxPxN

    A - amount of VRT (Here: Cat C or T1 to T5= €50 - before 01.05.2011)
    P 0.1%
    N no of days

    I should not have said that the 'penalty' interest rate of 0.1% equates to the highest rate of VRT. Whilst this seems optically to be the case, it does not actually state that in the legislation.


    Probably the reporter in the FJ did not go into the detail that we are - or he just wrote it down as the farmer told him. We also do not know exactly when it happened even though they mention 'over 40 years', which does not correlate to the math.

    But I think it is very credible that this happened.

    I think it would track down the yellow lorry man and ask them what they did in his case?

    Yes, it would be interesting, whereby we do not know if it was imported it at some stage and he has the documentation or it was unregistered in the State since near its manufacture date.

    I have no documentation.

    I think it is possible that Revenue could believe that a tractor was in the country since near the date of manufacture as it was commonplace for them to be used solely on the farm.

    I think one would have a harder time convincing them of this in relation to the truck (unless one could prove that it was used solely in a warehouse around the docks or something like that) or indeed a car e.g where the latter is a shell rebuilt into a car and presented for registration without documentation as in the case of the tractor. I suppose this is where the search for a matching log book comes n.
    I would argue that at worst, you should only be responsible for paying back tax from the point it became a mechanically propelled vehicle. e.g. the date at which the engine goes back in, as it was found without the engine in it (which was sitting next to it) and which was sometime after the previous owner passed away.

    I think you are confusing me with someone else. The vehicle was capable of self propulsion at all times - the engine was not in a removed state.:)


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    #22
    ngk74
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭ngk74


    hi5 wrote: »
    Ireland is slowly but surely been brought up to date with the rest of europe.
    As your tractor has no identity and never had then you may have to go through the IVA conformity proceedure, to have it verified and catagorised as an actual tractor.
    I know that passanger jeeps being converted to commercial vehicles if not factory built are having to do this now.

    http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Your-Vehicle/About-your-Vehicle/What-Category-is-my-vehicle/Tractors-/

    http://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Certification/Automotive-Certification/Motor-Vehicle-Approval-Schemes/IVA---Individual-Vehicle-Approval.aspx

    Yes, yes - this is also a problem!

    When is a tractor a tractor? :D

    Although your link does not show it, the EU categories T1- T5 even specify the tyre width in determining which category the tractor falls under ...!:eek:

    I think this is also a problem with rebuilt vehicles. if you go to the NCT to present the vehicle for registration and you state it is rebuilt, they will put you through the NSAI route (which undoubtedly costs money with no guarantee of passing).

    If you say it is not rebuilt, then they ask you why was the car unregistered.

    At this stage you have probably invested a lot of time restoring the car, it is capable of mechanical propulsion and is in good to excellent condition, sitting in front of the NCT inspector.

    Remember you prob have no paperwork for the rebuilt vehicle having gathered up a shell and bits and pieces from everywhere. even if the shell was at one time registered that paperwork is prob missing. On older cars they only had the chassis no on a rivited plate and that might be gone too.

    Try and argue that it was in a barn for 30 years ....:D

    Note that the software the nct use automatically calculates the penalty based on the date they enter into it when you are there. That was the prob with the guy with the fergy in the FJ. he signed the declaration there. Toough luck acc to revenue.

    Undoubtedly, this is where the search for a matching log book comes in - thus the registration (and nsai verification) process is completely avoided/evaded.

    If the car is pre 81 , it will not do an nct test so no one will check the chassis no on the log book against that on the car ( if it is on it).

    The chances of a Garda actually doing this or having recourse to do this approach zero rapidly too ...

    see what I mean?


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    #23
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Dunno if this would work, but howabout take it to N.I., register it up there.

    Then, 'import' it here from it's N.I. papers.

    No ?

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #24
    mattroche
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭mattroche


    We can speculate all we like, but the best road to go down is th contact the Revenue at Rosslaire, which is where V.R.T. is calculated for vahicles that are not on their web site. The tractor could be trailered to a N.C.T. if is neccessary, if you can agree a figure with the revenue, but I think it will be E200. Perhaps there may be a fee to register it . I will try and find out from the Dept. of Transport here in Shannon, and come back to you.


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    #25
    mattroche
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭mattroche


    Since my last post, I have found out a bit more. All vahicles at that time had a Chassis/ Model No. somewhere on them, it is a case of finding it. As I do not know the make of the tractor, I cant not make any further suggestions, but if you would like to call me on 0868677601 and we can discuss it further.


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    #26
    ngk74
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭ngk74


    galwaytt wrote: »
    Dunno if this would work, but howabout take it to N.I., register it up there.

    Then, 'import' it here from it's N.I. papers.

    No ?

    Heard of this before. Would have to look into the details of it.
    Since my last post, I have found out a bit more. All vahicles at that time had a Chassis/ Model No. somewhere on them, it is a case of finding it.

    thanks for your help. I already know the chassis no and the year (down to the day it was manufactured!)

    I do not understand what you are getting at with this with regards to reg fee and possibe back charge.

    We know worst case is that they cahrge back to 1964 - €3700

    The legislation allows for them to do it.

    If they do or don't seems to be case by case - the FJ guy had to pay.

    The chap on here with the David Brown did not even have to go to the NCT and only paid the €200 (or 50 at the time)


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