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bungalow renovation

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  • 14-04-2014 5:34pm
    #1
    slipstream
    Registered Users Posts: 198 ✭✭


    we are nearing the start of a detached bungalow renovation in dublin 13 and had a couple of plumbing queries. we will be putting the project to tender so these are to help me understand our options better.

    the new layout will have a bathroom and ensuite downstairs and a shower-room upstairs (upstairs is currently unused).

    we plan to install a gas boiler and 2 or 3 zone ufh downstairs along with three towel heaters (one upstairs).

    my queries are -
    1) how would we go about finding out if a combi boiler would be suitable (i get about 13 liters per minute at the kitchen tap)?
    2) is a a raised cold water tank upstairs an option (the drop to the upstairs toilet cistern/sink would be 2 - 3 feet)?
    3) should we go with a vented or unvented hot water system?

    any other advice would be welcome.

    thanks for your help,

    slip


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    #2
    shane 007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 914 ✭✭✭shane 007


    slipstream wrote: »
    we are nearing the start of a detached bungalow renovation in dublin 13 and had a couple of plumbing queries. we will be putting the project to tender so these are to help me understand our options better.

    the new layout will have a bathroom and ensuite downstairs and a shower-room upstairs (upstairs is currently unused).

    we plan to install a gas boiler and 2 or 3 zone ufh downstairs along with three towel heaters (one upstairs).

    my queries are -
    1) how would we go about finding out if a combi boiler would be suitable (i get about 13 liters per minute at the kitchen tap)?
    2) is a a raised cold water tank upstairs an option (the drop to the upstairs toilet cistern/sink would be 2 - 3 feet)?
    3) should we go with a vented or unvented hot water system?

    any other advice would be welcome.

    thanks for your help,

    slip
    1. You would need to provide a lot more info to determine whether a combi is suitable but generally for large households they have their limitations.
    2. Yes a CWST feeding a 3 bar booster pump is a better option for a combi.
    3. Pressurised is best for all round performance but many are installed incorrectly so ensure G3 regs are followed to the letter otherwise they can be dangerous & damaging to your home.


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    #3
    slipstream
    Registered Users Posts: 198 ✭✭slipstream


    thanks for your help shane.

    i havent a clue about plumbing so apologies if my questions make no sense!
    shane 007 wrote: »
    1. You would need to provide a lot more info to determine whether a combi is suitable but generally for large households they have their limitations.

    post-renovation the house will be 210sqm (170sqm ground, 40sqm dormer).

    will have a bathroom and ensuite downstairs and a shower-room upstairs.

    four living in the house (myself, my wife and two boys) and we would rarely (if ever) need to use two showers or a shower and bath at once.

    what else would help determine how suitable a combi might be?
    shane 007 wrote: »
    2. Yes a CWST feeding a 3 bar booster pump is a better option for a combi.

    what kind of pump would you suggest (so i can read more about them)?

    where should the booster pump be located ideally? near the gas boiler?

    would noise be an issue?

    would the booster pump be expensive to run?

    how large should the cwst be when used with a 3 bar booster pump?

    thanks for your help,

    colm


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    #4
    shane 007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 914 ✭✭✭shane 007


    slipstream wrote: »
    thanks for your help shane.

    i havent a clue about plumbing so apologies if my questions make no sense!



    post-renovation the house will be 210sqm (170sqm ground, 40sqm dormer).

    will have a bathroom and ensuite downstairs and a shower-room upstairs.

    four living in the house (myself, my wife and two boys) and we would rarely (if ever) need to use two showers or a shower and bath at once.

    what else would help determine how suitable a combi might be?



    what kind of pump would you suggest (so i can read more about them)?

    where should the booster pump be located ideally? near the gas boiler?

    would noise be an issue?

    would the booster pump be expensive to run?

    how large should the cwst be when used with a 3 bar booster pump?

    thanks for your help,

    colm

    For a house that size with that many occupants, I would not go for a combi. A decent stainless steel pressurised hot water system would be far better IMO.
    I used to always fit Grundfos MQ's but found them noisy. A couple of guys here recommended the Kikawa pump so I fitted a good few of them now & find them brilliant. Very sturdy pump with very low noise.
    Booster pump would very inexpensive to run, probably in region of 6 cent per hour of run time.
    Booster pump would be in the hot press. If with combi, it would depend on suitable locations available but could be in the attic.
    Tank size would be at least 60 gallon.


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    #5
    JohnnieK
    Registered Users Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    13L a minute is a good flow rate for a combi, but you also have to take into account when someone flushes a toilet it might affect the performance of the combi.

    I installed my combi on a cold water storage tank and is fed by a 3bar whole house booster and we love it.

    My house has a bathroom and an ensuite and the performance is fine.

    In your situation you could do as I did BUT your toilets, washing machine could have a gravity feed from the tank while the rest of the house is on the booster.

    I'm saving a fortune on gas from the combi.

    Before I changed, we used to turn the room stats down and only have the cylinder stat on to heat the cylinder. We would heat it every day for 2 showers and a bath for the nippers on a Saturday plus washes during the week for them. I was using in the June/July period 89m3 of gas.

    After the change on the same period we were using 62m3 of gas.
    I also have a weather compensator on it which increases the savings.

    We went €590 into credit by the end of last summer that we reduced the direct debit to €25 and after the winter we are still over €400 in credit.

    I'm delighted with it.


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    #6
    shane 007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 914 ✭✭✭shane 007


    JohnnieK wrote: »
    Before I changed, we used to turn the room stats down and only have the cylinder stat on to heat the cylinder. We would heat it every day for 2 showers and a bath for the nippers on a Saturday plus washes during the week for them. I was using in the June/July period 89m3 of gas.

    After the change on the same period we were using 62m3 of gas.

    How much of that saving was due to combi or going from a standard efficiency boiler to a high efficiency boiler?
    Decent time & temperature controls with a system boiler could have similar saving results.
    Combi's are excellent choices but they do have their quirks too. The big advantage is you are only heating what you use so your demand is matched exactly with your supply.
    You could fit a NUOS & have no water demand also!


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    #7
    JohnnieK
    Registered Users Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    shane 007 wrote: »
    How much of that saving was due to combi or going from a standard efficiency boiler to a high efficiency boiler?
    Decent time & temperature controls with a system boiler could have similar saving results.
    Combi's are excellent choices but they do have their quirks too. The big advantage is you are only heating what you use so your demand is matched exactly with your supply.
    You could fit a NUOS & have no water demand also!

    Good enough controls before, the upgrades I made in that area would not have made that much of a difference.

    Sure, the difference in boiler made a difference but that along with it being a combi and the weather comp has pushed it down.

    Usage is a big factor in the decision making also.


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    #8
    richieburke01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭richieburke01


    I agreed about combo boiler
    But I put in proper heating controls in my own place
    Time & temperture control with optimal stop & start first year €450 saved over that year


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    #9
    slipstream
    Registered Users Posts: 198 ✭✭slipstream


    thanks for your suggestions.
    shane 007 wrote: »
    For a house that size with that many occupants, I would not go for a combi. A decent stainless steel pressurized hot water system would be far better IMO.

    could you explain what the problems would be if we used a combi with our setup? would gravity feeding toilets/washing machine etc. as johnniek suggested mitigate these issues?
    shane 007 wrote: »
    I used to always fit Grundfos MQ's but found them noisy. A couple of guys here recommended the Kikawa pump so I fitted a good few of them now & find them brilliant. Very sturdy pump with very low noise.

    which kikawa model would be best suited? kq200?

    one other query i had was that our architect has suggested using gravity fed filtered rainwater from the ~ 25sqm flat dormer roof for the toilet cisterns.

    i guess we would need a separate rainwater header tank with overflow and perhaps mechanical mains top up valve like this.

    we would hope to connect toilet cisterns and perhaps the washing machine (if it was advisable) to this.

    do you guys have any experience or advice on setting this up?

    thanks again ,

    slip


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    #10
    JohnnieK
    Registered Users Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    richieburke01 wrote: »
    I agreed about combo boiler
    But I put in proper heating controls in my own place
    Time & temperture control with optimal stop & start first year €450 saved over that year

    Same here. I put in 3 honywell programmable stats with weather comp.

    The heating wouldn't have been on in the period i measured and the comp only went on this year.
    You know how it is when it's your own house :-)


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    #11
    richieburke01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭richieburke01


    This is very hard to get customers to understand and of course learn:)


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    #12
    slipstream
    Registered Users Posts: 198 ✭✭slipstream


    hiya,

    my earlier post was delayed due to moderation i think ... could you guys take a look when you get a chance?

    colm
    slipstream wrote: »
    thanks for your suggestions.

    could you explain what the problems would be if we used a combi with our setup? would gravity feeding toilets/washing machine etc. as johnniek suggested mitigate these issues?

    which kikawa model would be best suited? kq200?

    one other query i had was that our architect has suggested using gravity fed filtered rainwater from the ~ 25sqm flat dormer roof for the toilet cisterns.

    i guess we would need a separate rainwater header tank with overflow and perhaps mechanical mains top up valve like this.

    we would hope to connect toilet cisterns and perhaps the washing machine (if it was advisable) to this.

    do you guys have any experience or advice on setting this up?

    thanks again ,

    slip


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    #13
    JohnnieK
    Registered Users Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    slipstream wrote: »
    hiya,

    my earlier post was delayed due to moderation i think ... could you guys take a look when you get a chance?

    colm

    The combi would heat hot water as needed. The combi would have to be sized correctly to suite your needs. The main issue you would encounter is if your using the shower and someone turns the hot tap on else where you could notice a drop in performance. I have a 35kW viessmann and we don't really notice any impact.

    The size of the pump would depend on the system to be honest.

    The gravity feed is if someone flushes the toilet during the night the pump won't come on.

    Unless there was some sort of filtration on the rain water unit i would not advise putting it on the wm. It's a very good idea for the toilets.


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    #14
    paddy_joe
    Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭paddy_joe


    Who supplies the kikawa pumps? Are they the same as the walrus pumps?


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    #15
    shane 007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 914 ✭✭✭shane 007


    paddy_joe wrote: »
    Who supplies the kikawa pumps? Are they the same as the walrus pumps?

    Flow Pumps Ireland, Dublin 12


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    #16
    paddy_joe
    Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭paddy_joe


    What price are they?


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    #17
    shane 007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 914 ✭✭✭shane 007


    paddy_joe wrote: »
    What price are they?

    Depends on model. 200, 400 & 800. 200 & 400 are 1/2 HP & 800 is 1HP. So far I've only bought the 400. Flow rate of about 57 litres/min. The 800 is about 100 litres/min.


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    #18
    paddy_joe
    Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭paddy_joe


    What price is the 400?


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