How can I receive Soarsat and 28.2 east with one Dish

Freesat/Sky @ 28E uses Ku Band from a constellation of satellites.
Saorsat @ 9E uses only part of Ka Band from Ka-Sat.

You ideally need a "Freesat HD" (DVB-S2) receiver that also supports Diseqc and somehow non-Freesat channels. Only some do. A Generic DVB-S2 receiver usually will not have MHEG5 for Freesat and Saorsat interactive and also will irritatingly need retuned/rescanned / transponders added and then "junk" channels deleted from time to time.

The dish needs to be 80cm or 90cm. For a larger distribution system (Hotel, Guest house or apartment block etc) a 110cm or two separate 90cm dishes may be needed to get better initial signal to noise.

Here is a Triax dish (90cm wide x 95cm tall, probably a "90") and Triax multi-lnb bracket


Left to Right: Freesat/Sky 28E, Astra 19E, Hotbird 13E and 9E

The multi-bracket is mounted upside down compared to Triax instructions to get more tilt. 9E is elevation of almost 30 degrees and 28E is elevation of less than 22 degrees in parts of Ireland so the bar needs much more tilt than in London and very much more than in Germany. The tilt is also pretty much the "skew" with the LNBs almost at 90 degrees to bar.

There is no Skew adjustment on Saorsat, it's circular polarised, so any angle of the LNB works equally. However the normal LNBF for Saorsat will not work at all on Toroidal dish or other dish with secondary reflector like a "wavefrontier" as it reverses the polarisation, unless the the LNBF Orthoconverter is mechanically swappable. All LNBs are inherently vertical, horizontal (or both via two sensors), they can only receive circular polarisation using a separate mechanical converter (using a dielectric wedge on C-band and on Ka-band a set of ribs or holes on the waveguide). Electronically switch-able LNBFs or LNBs to have left or right circular polarisation have more waveguide and are much more expensive. We don't know what type of Ka-Band Circular LNBF has been produced, but it's likely to be the simplest kind to reduce cost and give best performance.


Note the LNB for 9E is a Ku type, it needs swapped summer 2012 for a Ka band LNBF.

A Diseqc switch is only good for one tuner. If you had a PVR and a 2nd non-PVR you would need 3 x Diseqc switches, a splitter for the Ka-Band LNBF and a Quad for Freesat/Sky.

A multiswitch is more suitable as no splitter is needed for Ka-Band.

If you are using 2 x Diseqec then a 2 way satellite IF splitter can be used for Saorsat.

Normally Satellite IF splitters are only ever used with Quattro LNBs and in larger than 16 feed distribution systems. They can not at all be used with regular LNBs on Ku Band. (Freesat, sky). But Ka-Sat @ 9E used for Saorsat will only ever have one polarity and one part of band, so a splitter works and dual, quad or quattro LNBs are never needed.

Ku band usually has two "sub bands" selected by 22KHz tone on or off and also two polarities on all of Ku Band (Vertical and Horizontal). So you can't "split" the signal on regular or Quad LNB. A Quattro LNB doesn't have four independent outlets like a quad. It's only for distribution systems which on the cable to set-box have a Multiswitch. A Multiswitch simulates the ordinary LNB based on the the H &V polarity voltage (18V and 13V) and the band High/Low (22kHz on/off).
So a Quattro has on its four connectors
Band Low, Vertical
Band High, Vertical
Band Low, Horizontal
Band High, Horizontal
Since the connections ignore band tone switching and H/V polarity voltage, you can use four splitters to drive 2 x Multswitches.
In fact you can amplify and split the signal 7 times for feeding 128 multiswitches and thus over 2000 tuners or over 1000 PVRs.

A multiswitch with four inputs only does one satellite. For Freesat/Sky and Saorsat you need an 8 input multiswitch, though 3 inputs are unused for Saorsat. In this case the Multiswitch is implementing Diseqc as well as simulating a "Universal" LNB.

Often a multiswitch has a passive or amplified "terrestrial" input for 5MHz to 900MHz. Don't get the amplified type. The passive versions are more useful. So they are often described as
5 in (1 sat + terrestrial)
9 in (2 sat + terrestrial)
13 in (3 sat + terrestrial)
17 in (4 sat + terrestrial)
and may have 8, 12 or 16 outlets for set-boxes and Tvs.

As long as 28E is port 1 on a Multiswitch the Sky boxes will work and also any Freesat box without Diseqc.

For now do nothing till RTE announces the service is live. Saorsat is only testing. It is not "up and running". It seems likely that could be the case till Spring/Summer 2012.

The proper Domestic LNBF are not available yet. The Ka-band LNB some people buying are not suitable for standalone use, they are for terminals/Modems as part of a transmitter.

Ordinary Diseqc is very awkward to expand, so unless you are having only a single non-pvr box a Multiswitch is the best solution.

Keep an eye on the RTE site www.saorview.ie
and on the third party site http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/
also http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/

Onwave are a VSAT reseller/installer. (Internet by Satellite).

Wait and support your regular Satellite / TV supplier who will have a wider range of material for Freesat etc.

Since RTE has not yet launched the service it's a bad idea to commit to ordering from ANYONE yet.

A walker set box is a bad choice for Freesat.

A 2 way Disesqc switch on its own doesn't allow PVR and is poor investment.

All poor advice Ciaran999, but your first post. I hope you are not working for Onwave.

So you're using the Onwave kit to get the current Saorsat tests?

If yes, which model of LNBF did Onwave supply, the one-cable or two cable model? How have you connected it up to the receiver? Can you post a photo of your dish?

liamtech wrote: »

Correct me if im wrong but true PVR will be all difficult using Saorsat, Freesat/FTA28.2 and ONE satellite box... regardless of the dish configuration? And what satellite box will allow this type of config?

Problem . using a twin Tuner DVB-S2 box

You want to watch BBC and record RTE - OK

What happens when you want to record BBC and Watch Channel 4? Can you connect Both the Saorsat and the freesat TO BOTH tuners using a Diseq? That would be necessary wouldnt it?

No, you only need a dual tuner. You need TWO diseqc systems or a multswitch. Then each tuner can select any channel. It's not relevant if on same or different satellites, that's no different to two different transponders to the PVR.

Any PVR you can only assume you can watch one program and record another. If you are not watching at all, or want to record what you are watching, then you can record two channels in theory.

I have a Dual Satellive PVR (Media Centre) with four satellite feeds. It behaves just the same as a PVR on one satellite.

I have a 16 outlet Multiswitch, so can have 8 full PVRs, or 4 PVRS and 8 ordinary receivers etc.

Apogee wrote: »

Thanks Ciaran999 - you're the first person to post a photo of a proper consumer grade Ka-band LNBF.

Was there any information on the Ka-band LNBF e.g. manufacturer? Also, when you change polarity in the receiver from H to V, can you still scan in the channels on both polarisations (i.e. does the LNBF switch between right-hand circular polarisation and left-hand circular polarisation)?

+1 :)

Ciaran999 wrote: »

1) Octo output Ku LNB
2) Dual output Ka LNB (from Onwave)
3) Sky LNB Bracket
4) €1 coin to give a bit of scale.

I'm not climbing onto the roof for a photo. LNB for aged my neighbours house who just wants the RTÉ's.

Hi Ciaran

Where did you get the LNB, was it supplied by Onwave without install? Cost?

Excellent stuff! Thanks again Ciaran.

I'll order one a week or two before the definite start date that RTE announce.

Twin Ka Circular Dual polarity

Suggests one outlet is LHC pol and the other outlet is RHC pol which is really good news for Wavefrontier users.

A TWIN is different from a DUAL.

You only need one outlet for Saorsat, as it can be split in four with a Sat IF splitter unlike Ku Band and only one port on a Multiswitch is needed. You don't need Quattro or Quad.

No, it's an ordinary Ku band LNBF. Looks identical to one I paid €6 for.

When the service is actually running there will be no problem getting LNBFs!

It makes NO sense to rush out for something now.

watty wrote: »

No, it's an ordinary Ku band LNBF. Looks identical to one I paid €6 for.

When the service is actually running there will be no problem getting LNBFs!

It makes NO sense to rush out for something now.

I agree with Watty.. Your correct the service is not actually up and running. Its not even on a trial yet.. its simply testing

But many users on this forum are obviously anxious to avail of the test transmissions.

Lets face it.. Not long ago Saorview was in the same predicament.. Testing until late 2010 and then only on trial for almost a year before official launch. Yet many users like myself ran out and bought TV's and STB's to avail of the service, in the days when TV3, and TG4 used to vanish for months with no announcement and no reason.... We still wanted to avail of the service... and eagerly posted on this Board our results, issues, and solutions.. I havent even nearly got as much experience in this technology as Watty and many others - i simply chose to embrace the technology(because at heart, im a geek:D and i love the idea of Free TV with HD and no monthly bills!)

Now im happy with my Saorview, and freesat on two seperate units... couldn't be happier until a TRUE COMBI Box comes out - i still take an interest in Saorsat but only as an enthusiast - but many are frustrated by the lack of a proper Combi Freesat/Saorview box.. and they see Saorsat as the Holy Grail... A PROPER WAY of having Irish TV and British TV, all FTA on the same box and with a FULL EPG, not now and next for UK TV... Those in an even worse position have no alternative to Saorsat and they obviously are MORE THAN eager to get set up...

Many of these obvious Future Saorsat enthusiast's and users are obviously finding it difficult to get around the idea that Ka band Satellite broadcasts are not as simple to receive as Freesat, and other Ku band services like 19.2 and hotbird. Its not like saorview was during the tests:(! Lets face it, its a hell of a lot more complicated than a simple UHF aeriel! Its difficult for many users to fathom why it has been launched in such a way! They are not alone - i genuinely remember the day when Saorsat was announced - Like many i jumped straight to 'relatively' logical conclusion that it would be 28.2.. and our prayers answered! Foolish i know but hey, you cant blame me (i would add that in the back of my head the words license and satellite footprint were resounding - i knew it was way too good to be true!)

Potential Saorsat users should realize that saorsat is not going to be as good as Freesat - VERY LITTLE chance of any additional Soarsat stations which are not already on Saorview - complete opposite to Freesat as there are Tonnes of stations on this platform that are not on British DTT... Really there are only two reasons for adopting Saorsat..

• You cant get Saorview
• You want ONE satellite box with all your stations

I reckon a new Thread should be set up listing equipment that is SAORSAT compatible - obviously this will be mainly LNB's, but will also probably include Freesat Boxes that CONVENIENTLY allow users to add Saorsat with at the very least, and EPG - preferably Digital Aertel enabled.. That way enthusiasts and early adopters can decide for themselves whether or not to give it a shot... There is at least one Consumer level LNB available according to Ciaran999, and perhaps as users choose to take a shot on it, they can report results with Set-top-boxes for everyone else to read..

Finally i would like to praise all of those that have already given us screen shots of Saorsat in action... Ciaran999, fkearney and all the other early adopters. Fair play to you, my hat goes off to all of those pioneers! My days of early adoption ENDED with the old Triax 'doesn't work properly' MHEG5 combi... (may it rest in peace!)

liamtech wrote: »

I agree with Watty.. Your correct the service is not actually up and running. Its not even on a trial yet.. its simply testing

But many users on this forum are obviously anxious to avail of the test transmissions.
... but many are frustrated by the lack of a proper Combi Freesat/Saorview box.. and they see Saorsat as the Holy Grail... A PROPER WAY of having Irish TV and British TV, all FTA on the same box and with a FULL EPG, not now and next for UK TV... Those in an even worse position have no alternative to Saorsat and they obviously are MORE THAN eager to get set up...

Many of these obvious Future Saorsat enthusiast's and users are obviously finding it difficult to get around the idea that Ka band Satellite broadcasts are not as simple to receive as Freesat, and other Ku band services like 19.2 and hotbird. Its not like saorview was during the tests:(! Lets face it, its a hell of a lot more complicated than a simple UHF aeriel! Its difficult for many users to fathom why it has been launched in such a way! They are not alone - i genuinely remember the day when Saorsat was announced - Like many i jumped straight to 'relatively' logical conclusion that it would be 28.2..

Actually about 20 minutes into the presentation to the Committee I said it could only be Ka-Sat. I'd had a private meeting with Eutelsat over a year previously about Internet by Satellite which featured Ka-Sat.

I suspect RTE want as much take up of Saorview and people that need new aerials getting them before launching Saorsat. They really probably don't want 50,000 people that can get Saorview creating demand until the 20,000 that can't get Saorview have been sorted.

So actually if I was in charge, I'd not publicise or launch the service till August.

Personally, though I have perfect Saorview, I want Saorsat too, but I will not order an LNBF till about a week before the official launch date, once the final date has really definitively been announced.

I had a loan of a Hylas Ka-Band ODU and tried the LNB part. It does work, ISAA (aka Gerry) published photos of it. But it's a stupid solution.

Also the LNB off a VSAT ODU is designed for less sensitivity but more out-of-band immunity as the limitation on dish size is the Transmitter, not receiver for two way Internet etc and the LNB is beside a 0.5W to 4W transmitter. Also has no built in circular to ortho polariser. A "domestic" LNB is cheaper, has a horn, circular to ortho polariser, more sensitivity and lower noise than a bare expensive professional LNB from VSAT!

Ciaran999 wrote: »

Playing with the Walker STB - WP75 SAT-HD and discovered the elusive 7 day UK FTA satellite EPG.

Setup 1) Saorsat + FTA Sattlite on the one EPG. 7 day for saorsat but only now & next on FTA satellite and no channel order.

Setup 2) Saorsat on 1 EPG & FTA satellite on a separate EPG. Swap between them with one press on 'Mode' button. 7 day EPG for Saorsat, like Saorviews. 7 day for FTA satellite. Looks like some kind of Freesat ripoff, genre, etc.

Digital teletext working on FTA Satellite but not on Saorsat, which is odd as they both use the same mheg software/driver/stuff.

I understand it is unlikely TV3 or 3e will ever go on Saorsat as it covers NI. Too many programm rights issues with UTV. RTE has all kinds of legal Island of Ireland obligations and even at that may have to blank the odd programme on saorsat. TG4 will be grand as it already is transmitted from a site near Belfast, something to do with the good Friday agreement. Anyway UTV & ITV show most of the TV3/3e stuff.

Not perfect but great progress.

So what your saying is the walker satellite box (presume its the one that appeared on Powercity a while ago) CAN get a 7 day guide for astra 28.2 ie the UK channels:eek:... WELL! :eek:

THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!:D Role on Saorsat!

Ciaran, can you post picture of the Walker in action... specifically the UK EPG, and MHEG5 functionality... a few other general pictures of the interface would be brilliant too.... Thanks in advance. Also does it have PVR functionality?

This is a HUGE development in my humble opinion... If that box is eventually certified Saorsat ready, then saorsat users may have hit the jackpot - those of us who are using saorview obviously havent... :mad:

perhaps Digital aertel isnt being transmitted on saorsat yet . . . can anyone confirm or deny this?

Also ciaran does the multi-screen functions of the BBCi work as they are technically MHEG5? they didnt work on the Triax st-hd537

If walker can create a 7Day EPG satellite box, then all we need is for them to create a Combi Saorview/Satelite box with the same function and WE ARE SORTED!

NewHillel wrote: »

I was referring to your comment 'Wait and support your regular Satellite / TV supplier who will have a wider range of material for Freesat etc.'

You are a founding member of the ISSA, a Trade Association for Aerial and Dish Installers. Your website is referenced on their homepage and you are preparing training material for them.

I did prepare some training material. I do support the aims of ISAA, as anyone interested in Consumer protection should.

I've never made any secret of that.

But I'm not a Member. I have paid no fee, I have no membership number and I have never received even 1c in payments for any help given or expenses incurred.

Your objection to my statement is sheer nonsense.

• There is no Saorsat Service yet
• We know the regular Retailers and any installer will get supplies of the required LNBF, at least 20,000 have been produced for Irish Market.
• There is no point in ordering an LBNF until RTE have definitively issued a Service Commencement date
• I receive no benefit whatsoever from ISAA or anyone else connected with this. I'm giving sensible consumer advice.
• I have been in correspondence in the past with Onwave. They appear to be a Company committed to doing the job properly. But they are a comparatively recent (compared to Digiweb) start up solely doing Satellite Terminals. They are now trying to get into installing Saorsat too. There is no valid reason to promote them for Domestic Ka-Sat LNBFs before RTE has announced a start date for service.

Ciaran999 wrote: »

I'm not climbing onto the roof for a photo.

Ciaran999
I would be interested in knowing what dish size they provided for combined Saorsat/FreeSat. Any idea of make. Also how did they mount two LNBs, which type of bracket is used. And finally any chance of a photo? Even from a distance?

Thanks in advance...

Apogee wrote: »

This is not an advertised feature of the Walker box. Can you please post a photo? How long does it take the box to populate the sat EPG?

If it's reading the actual Freesat EPG and not a licensed "Freesat HD" box they are not allowed to advertise it.

watty wrote: »

But how do you know it's the right size dish?

I don't, exactly the same as I don't know what information they used to decide on the right size. Allowable rain fade is a matter of opinion, ask Sky. No harm in asking

Ciaran999 wrote: »

Saorsat Dish and LNB ...... similar size dish and similar size LNB (LNBF) as FTA satellite, freesat or Sky.

So a single KA LNB dish is only similar in size to a zone 2 sky dish. He does not give a size comparison for the dual LNB dish, (He seems to be installing two people, one person Saorsat only, the other combined Saorsat and Freesat)

watty wrote: »

Onwave are only a VSAT reseller / Tooway Installer. Their Terminal dishes and gear will be whatever Tooway supplies.

My understanding is to use a 40mm KA LNB then they are not supplying a tooway dish but rather a non tooway solid dish with dual LNB setup. I am just interested in finding out what they are using. I am using a 40cm dish but I wouldn't recommend it!

Hopefully ciaran999 can clarify

pelisor2000 wrote: »

I really hope that's not the front of the house!

But I *am* an abrasive know it all.

No-one likes a "clever dick"
...
Everyone really hates a "clever dick" that's mostly right

Actually I was thinking of changing my name to Cassandra, not to explore my feminine side, but because no-one believes me till it's too late. Beware Geeks bearing gifts.

Actually sometimes I'm wrong (more often if it's not Electronics/Comms related), but I usually do admit it.

A lot of the "Abrasiveness" is total frustration at lack of any proactive support of the consumer laws. We do actually have some good regulation and law to protect consumer. But Government in the past has supported "big business" and even opposed advice of their own expert Committees to rip off the consumer and the Nation.