Transracial

Dogowner55 · 13-07-2015 2:44pm #1

*MODS SAID TO START THE THREAD HERE AS IT'S NOT SUITABLE FOR AH*

huffingtonpost.com/rev-miller-jen-hoffman/jenner-can-dolezal-cant-b_b_7754724.html

I am conflicted on this, now I am straight non-trans man but I also can't see why there is a difference in a person realising they are not the right sex and a person realising they are the wrong race.

Both are genetic so why is one taken as ok and one not. This woman obviously feels like she is black, how can anyone deny how she feels a person and how is different then a transsexual.

Another transracial person is also getting pick on here

indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2015/07/10/open-letter-defenders-andrea-smith-clearing-misconceptions-about-cherokee-identification

This is obviously a thing and people are dismissing it as it's uncommon, but transsexuals where dismissed in the same way when it became seen in the public too.

MOD Note
Due to the history of this thread in AH and the nature of the discussion, any postings that infringe the Humanities charter, stray from the topic or cause offence will entail the locking of this thread.

evolving_doors · 13-07-2015 3:51pm

Yup I agree, if you wanna say youre a cherokee indian then fire away with ya. Unless the cherokee's have some rule that you cant tag along unless you got the genes... but then again Im sure they make people honorary members too.

Torakx · 13-07-2015 6:47pm

It's a tricky topic.
What if someone had a child in their care and it was a boy, who was dressed up as a girl and treated like a girl, with the utmost of kindness otherwise.
Then later in life after assuming the identity after years of cognitive training wanted a sex change.
With an operation such as a sex change, medications probably need to be used to ward off infection and can cause life long damage and illness as a result in some cases.
At what stage does society decide it's ok to operate instead of healing psychological wounds?

A more extrme example.
What if I am convinced through abuse that I was born to be without my legs and i should have them removed.
And i become an adult and am responsible for myself. Should i be allowed to have an operation to remove my legs?
Or should I be refused and advised to take an offer of therapy?
Or therapy first and then an operation?
Maybe I realise when I am 50 that I was traumatically abused and i wasn't in my right mind. Can i have the legs of someone else whodoesn't want theirs? or some prostethics and sue the hospital that did the operation while I was not in my right mind?

I personally don't have any stake in other peoples lives or choices.
soit doesn't bother me whatanyone wants to do while it has no unwarranted negative impact on others.
But I do find it a little irritating I that live in a society where a person who is lawfully owned by their governments corporation(birth cert/bond) can have their genitals removed or changed, but can't smoke some weed to ease their suffering, nausea, epilepsy, cancer, tumors, depression, glycoma, pain etc etc.
Does that mean that transgendered people are more important than certain sick people?

I think the world is very perverted and if it's not a strong enough political issue the slaves that aren't catered for can go walk off a cliff as far as rights are concerned.

What if someone thinks they are a person that needs to smoke weed.
Maybe a rastafarian? Or a breed of human that has a need to smoke it to feel themselves.
Where do you draw the line on who can be what or do what?

Why does caitlyn jenners psychological needs come before millions of sick peoples medical and psychological needs?
Money, power, politics? Is that what decides our rights as human beings? Not ethics anymore?
Ah the age of science..

If I offended anyone by the way, it isn't intentional.

evolving_doors · 13-07-2015 7:12pm

Ya sure, to any one of those you could say "meh! first world problems". But isnt it good that we at least have a first world and can move down maslow's ladder of 'needs and wants.
(There are folk who want limbs removed btw!).

I dont think the OP's point has so much to do with physically altering appearence (as may be the case with TG). Its more a case of not recognising someone who wants to be (or feels part of) a different race or culture.. I.e. the case of Rachel Dolezal..

The word transracial is a bit loaded too because it is/was also used forchildren who were raised/adopted into an environment that was culturally and phenotypically different to their own (from' birth).

How about this statement from' one of her opponents...

".. the politics of race and gender are not interchangable in this case. Unlike many black Americans, Rachel's family backgrounds does not carry the trauma of slavery and institutional racism"

Dogowner55 · 13-07-2015 7:28pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

".. the politics of race and gender are not interchangable in this case. Unlike many black Americans, Rachel's family backgrounds does not carry the trauma of slavery and institutional racism"

This one bothers me too cause plenty of trans women have spoken about the difficulties of being female an people except it, so why is Rachel talking about black issues cause such controversy.

Neither are raised in the environment about what they are campaigning about.

zeffabelli · 14-07-2015 8:40am

Overall problem with therapy talk infiltrating law and policy.

Consensual reality is out the window.

evolving_doors · 14-07-2015 2:08pm

zeffabelli wrote: »

Overall problem with therapy talk infiltrating law and policy.

How does this relate to refuting the notion of trans-racialism (taking the case of Rachel Dolezal for example). What laws and policies have been infiltrated?

Torakx · 14-07-2015 2:30pm

Most likely that was in response to my post, where i mentioned therapy before operations etc. A hypothetical scenario as an example.

squiggledash · 14-07-2015 3:02pm

Yes but hang on a minute she knew she was white but portrayed herself as black. She also profited from this deception as her career was strongly linked to activism for black people. She was the education director of the Human Rights Education Institute in Coeur d'Alene. She also continually lied that her father was black until undeniable proof was presented that both her parents were white. In fact she lied about a great many things to colleagues, reporters, friends and employers.

I read that HUff post article and I think it is disingenuous to compare this to what is happening with Trans people.

Transsexuality is a recognized medial condition number 1. Secondly you don't profit from being transgender from what I can see. It appears to be a very difficult situation with still a lot of pain and prejudice associated with it.

There is a possibility that Rachel Dolezal does subconsciously recognizes as black but given all the lies it is far more likely that Rachel Dolezal is suffering from a mental health issue or is possibly a narcissist who was using this to further her own career, as strange as that may sound. So are we now supposed to say that Transgendered people are suffering from mental illness?

I personally think its unfair to equate the two and until there is significant body of evidence identifying this as a real condition I'm calling bullsh1t.

Dogowner55 · 14-07-2015 3:10pm

squiggledash wrote: »

Yes but hang on a minute she knew she was white but portrayed herself as black. She also profited from this deception as her career was strongly linked to activism for black people. She was the education director of the Human Rights Education Institute in Coeur d'Alene. She also continually lied that her father was black until undeniable proof was presented that both her parents were white. In fact she lied about a great many things to colleagues, reporters, friends and employers.

But trans women have known they are men but portrayed themselves as women by you logic, plenty have profited by their deception being feminist activists.

Stealth trans women also lie about their family and childhood history so they don't get outed this is also the same as what Rachel did.

The point being why can people excuse transsexuals doing it but not transracials?

Dogowner55 · 14-07-2015 3:20pm

[QUOTE=squiggledash;96237375

Transsexuality is a recognized medial condition number 1. Secondly you don't profit from being transgender from what I can see. It appears to be a very difficult situation with still a lot of pain and prejudice associated with it.

[/QUOTE]

Transracial is like transsexualism in the 60's it needs studies. I could give examples of trans women who profit off being female in a male industry and campaigning for female rights, they also won't admit they where born male and lived most of their life as male even though all the info of their past history has been released.

There is no uproar and them getting called faurds and called to detransition like Rachel was.

squiggledash · 14-07-2015 3:28pm

I forgot to add that trans gender people mentally identify as the wrong sex but the genetics that are involved in race are largely restricted to physical appearance hair, skin color etc. and not mental functioning. There is very little evidence to support that mentally the races are very different. Black people think the same as white people who think the same as Chinese people and so on.

So there's your problem. If Race is largely appearance and not anything to do with your thinking or how your brain works. then saying I identify as a black person and "I think like a black person"...what does that mean???.. I think like a black person, you think like a black person, black people think like me, we all are mentally pretty much think the same.

Dogowner55 · 14-07-2015 3:34pm

squiggledash wrote: »

I forgot to add that trans gender people mentally identify as the wrong sex but the genetics that are involved in race are largely restricted to physical appearance hair, skin color etc. and not mental functioning. There is very little evidence to support that mentally the races are very different. Black people think the same as white people who think the same as Chinese people and so on.

So there's your problem. If Race is largely appearance and not anything to do with your thinking or how your brain works. then saying I identify as a black person and "I think like a black person"...what does that mean???.. I think like a black person, you think like a black person, black people think like me, we all are mentally pretty much think the same.

There is genetic differences within the races though, you realise men think like women too most feminists think gender is a social construct

If gender is largely appearance and not anything to do with your thinking or how your brain works. then saying I identify as a woman and "I think like a woman person"...what does that mean???.

You see I can't see how if you think transsexualism is a think you can just dismiss transracial as crazy people.

squiggledash · 14-07-2015 3:35pm

I don't know. Gender reassignment surgery or even just the daily hassle of passing yourself off as a man doesn't sound too much fun to me. I think you must have to fundamentally very strongly believe your the wrong sex to do it. It sounds a lot harder than just putting on fake tan and curling your hair which is exactly what Rachel Dolezal did. And she did profit from it. She may not have had anywhere near the career that she had if she was presented herself as a white women strange as it seems the positions she held are largely tied to being from a discriminated group.

As for transgendered women profiting from their deception I suggest you go talk to some of them and ask them how much they profited by becoming a women.

squiggledash · 14-07-2015 3:42pm

I did not say that transracialism is not a "thing". What I said was there is very little evidence for it presently and I'm making the point that the Rachel Dolezal case is a very bad example of it if it does indeed exist. Research that case yourself. If there are more and more examples of it other than this one and it is studied by the proper professional's who come to the conclusion that you can be born into the "wrong race" like transgender people can be born into the wrong sex then I will consider it.

Gender is not a social construct. I do not agree that gender is largely appearance. Where is your evidence for that?

If you grow your hair and put on a dress that does not make you a woman . If a women cuts her hair and wears jeans that does not make her a man.

Dogowner55 · 14-07-2015 3:43pm

squiggledash wrote: »

I don't know. Gender reassignment surgery or even just the daily hassle of passing yourself off as a man doesn't sound too much fun to me. I think you must have to fundamentally very strongly believe your the wrong sex to do it. It sounds a lot harder than just putting on fake tan and curling your hair which is exactly what Rachel Dolezal did. And she did profit from it. She may not have had anywhere near the career that she had if she was presented herself as a white women strange as it seems the positions she held are largely tied to being from a discriminated group.

As for transgendered women profiting from their deception I suggest you go talk to some of them and ask them how much they profited by becoming a women.

You would have to very strongly believe you are the wrong race to go to the hassle and stress to present your self as the race you truly feel you are. Hey to be a trans man you just have to say your a man and you know what people will respect that there is zero hassle.

*Mods am I allowed to post links to transwomen the are not out themselves but have been outed by the media and they still won't admit they are trans*

Cause plenty of transwomen make a profit for campaigning for female issues even though they spent most of their lives as men.

Dogowner55 · 14-07-2015 3:46pm

squiggledash wrote: »

.

Gender is not a social construct. I do not agree that gender is largely appearance. Where is your evidence for that?

If you grow your hair and put on a dress that does not make you a woman . If a women cuts her hair and wears jeans that does not make her a man.

i don't think gender is a social construct either just some do, I know there is genetic differences just like races have genetic differences

To be a woman or a man you don't need to do any of that you just need to self identify as that gender. You can have a beard and be a women.

If self identity is all it takes to be that gender it should be the same with race.

Dogowner55 · 14-07-2015 3:52pm

advocate.com/world/2015/06/05/trans-win-right-self-identify-ireland

To change your gender markers on documents all you need to say is I am that gender, why can't it the same with race.

Both about self identies that are a mismatch of the sex/race your where genetically born as.

Manach · 14-07-2015 3:59pm

Dogowner55 wrote: »

*Mods am I allowed to post links to transwomen the are not out themselves but have been outed by the media and they still won't admit they are trans*

Mod: Perhaps best just to keep the level of dialog as is without further bringing proofs of evidence and spiraling counter-evidence links. Again to reiterate, to be respectful of the how this topic is discussed

squiggledash · 14-07-2015 5:12pm

Sorry I just don't buy it.

Your quote= "You would have to very strongly believe you are the wrong race to go to the hassle and stress to present your self as the race you truly feel you are. Hey to be a trans man you just have to say your a man and you know what people will respect that there is zero hassle"

She didn't get any hassle she got jobs and status and prestige she only got hassle when she was caught in a lie up until then it was working for her really good.

wikipedia article:

When she was a teenager, her parents adopted three African-American children and one Haitian child.[21] Dolezal has said she was born and lived in a teepee, recounting hunting their food with bow and arrow.[22] Her mother said she and her husband briefly lived in a teepee in 1974, three years before their daughter was born, and called the claims "totally false".[1][23][24] From 2002 to 2006, her parents and adopted siblings lived in South Africa as Christian missionaries. Dolezal said she lived in South Africa as a child, but her family disputes the claim.[25][26]

Now here's the thing Rachel was brought up in a family that adopted and helped black children maybe she felt she had to compete with these children for affection maybe from an early age she identified that black = parents love. Also her parents sound screwy too. Nobody can fcuk you up like your family can fcuk you up.

But that doesn't mean that she was born in the wrong race which is how transgender people identify themselves. Do you not think there is a big difference here. Wheres the evidence that she was born in the wrong race. Was she really good at basketball or something (just kidding Mod don't take this **** too seriously).

This whole thing reminds me of the Jerk Steve Martin

.youtube.com/watch?v=AHB4TzHzi2A

squiggledash · 14-07-2015 5:13pm

Hey how do you guys post original posts in your answers. I keep trying to tick the quote message in reply box but nothing?

Dogowner55 · 14-07-2015 5:27pm

squiggledash wrote: »

Sorry I just don't buy it.

Your quote= "You would have to very strongly believe you are the wrong race to go to the hassle and stress to present your self as the race you truly feel you are. Hey to be a trans man you just have to say your a man and you know what people will respect that there is zero hassle"

She didn't get any hassle she got jobs and status and prestige she only got hassle when she was caught in a lie up until then it was working for her really good.

wikipedia article:

When she was a teenager, her parents adopted three African-American children and one Haitian child.[21] Dolezal has said she was born and lived in a teepee, recounting hunting their food with bow and arrow.[22] Her mother said she and her husband briefly lived in a teepee in 1974, three years before their daughter was born, and called the claims "totally false".[1][23][24] From 2002 to 2006, her parents and adopted siblings lived in South Africa as Christian missionaries. Dolezal said she lived in South Africa as a child, but her family disputes the claim.[25][26]

Now here's the thing Rachel was brought up in a family that adopted and helped black children maybe she felt she had to compete with these children for affection maybe from an early age she identified that black = parents love. Also her parents sound screwy too. Nobody can fcuk you up like your family can fcuk you up.

But that doesn't mean that she was born in the wrong race which is how transgender people identify themselves. Do you not think there is a big difference here. Wheres the evidence that she was born in the wrong race. Was she really good at basketball or something (just kidding Mod don't take this **** too seriously).

This whole thing reminds me of the Jerk Steve Martin

.youtube.com/watch?v=AHB4TzHzi2A

If a transwoman was brought up on a strong female environment, would you be questioning their choice to transition on the environment?

Why can transsexuals self identify but transracials can't and are not a thing.

Thing is I don't see a big difference, here let me explain my reasoning for asking this question. A few years ago I was of the opinion a person is of the sex they are born of if you are born male you are one your genetics mean you will always be a man, liberal people convinced me to be more considerate and if they identify as a woman I should respect that so use female pronouns and stuff

Now this transracial thing comes out and I go she identifies as black I will respect her identity and call her black but those liberal people where like no she is crazy and a fraud she not black she is white.

Now I have a huge disconnect that's how I felt about transsexuals but was told to be respectful. My logic I have to accept both or none cause they are the same issue to me self identity that is different to the genetics of the sex/race you where born into.

But why are the liberals that pushed transsexualism on me so anti transracialism I cannot understand the logic and am questioning did I just give in about accepting transsexualism all those years ago if those liberals can be that bigoted on the same issue

squiggledash · 14-07-2015 6:05pm

Ok I agree with you there the liberals have a real issue with race. Its an untouchable subject especially in America who are the liberals I presume you are referring to.

I still suggest this is not the case you should hang the transracialism hat on. Its too dodgy for me. Maybe transracialism will be shown to be a thing but if it is it should not really be equated to transexualism. They are still too different for my liking.

My concern is that people may start identifying as transracial and we will give them a hug and an afro hair do and not the psychiatric treatment that they so desperately need (again just joking people everybody keep their hair on). I suppose it would have to be judged on a case by case bases.

But yes in theory you're right it could of course exists.

Take me when it comes to maths I think I'm Asian and when it comes to penis size I think I'm bl......... (once again people just trying to lighten the mood, don't take this sh1t too seriously)

Live and let Live.

Peace.

Dogowner55 · 14-07-2015 6:16pm

[QUOTE=squiggledash;96239903

My concern is that people may start identifying as transracial and we will give them a hug and an afro hair do and not the psychiatric treatment that they so desperately need (again just joking people everybody keep their hair on). I suppose it would have to be judged on a case by case bases.

[/QUOTE]

But to me that's also what a transsexual do grows their hair puts on a dress, but that's just outward appearance and not what makes them trans, the self identity is what makes them trans. So if transracials need psychiatric treatment I would be of the opinion then so would the transsexuals.

But the transsexuals don't they just have to I am this gender and then they are, it should be the same with the transracials.

Pat Mustard · 14-07-2015 8:06pm

There is a body of medical evidence of transgender and gender identity issues.

Here is a peer-reviewed article from PubMed, which is operated by the US National Library of Medicine:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3105355/

Transgender patients seek medical treatment to change external appearances to correspond to their gender identification. Environment may have a role in the manifestation of the condition and the personal choices about the priority the situation may take in a specific individual's life. Gender identity, however, reflects neither environment nor postnatal sex steroid hormone levels. Rather, gender identity is fixed. The stated gender identity of most adults can be taken at face value.

No evidence of transracialism has been posted here. There is no evidence that it is a genuine issue.

This thread appears to be a spurious attempt to compare transgender issues with a couple of newspapers articles about somebody who claims to be transracial.

Therefore, this thread is closed.

OP, you were asked to be respectful but it very much looks like you came here to troll this forum. Therefore, please do not open any new threads on this subject or any related subject.

Transracial

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