Ruairí Quinn: Teachers don't appreciate gravity of economic crisis

Permabear · 11-04-2012 3:12pm

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bamboozle · 11-04-2012 3:53pm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

lets not forget Bertie's and Cowan's governments were dominated with former teachers.

JimiTime · 11-04-2012 3:58pm

TBH, until politicians show leadership in the cuts stakes, then they will never have the moral authority to make them. As leaders, they need to REALLY take the lead in this. rather than bellow out rhetoric about people not realising how bad things are, they should take massive cuts themselves. Say, cut the basic TD salary from 92k to 60k etc. Maybe then, all their 'Lets think of the country' rhetoric will have some moral sway! If they really did care, then something like this would have been one of the first things to be done.

later12 · 11-04-2012 4:10pm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Why does the Minister for education over successive years continue to attend these union gatherings? The attendees of these conferences do not seem to have the ability to respect their guest speakers so the guest speaker (Minister) should refuse to attend.

Respect? I think it's appropriate that Ministers should have to come before employees of the Department of Education and outline their intentions for the salary agreement framework that is in place, and answer any of the teacher's questions, and indeed listen to their concerns - heckles or not.

Ruairi Quinn got heckled when he tried to sell the crowd the Treaty of Stability, Co-Ordination and Governance and was quite rightly verbally encouraged to deal with the issues before him, and not to mount a political podium with respect to the Treaty.

I had to check that it wasnt an April fools story http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/1500-teachers-earn-up-to-115k-a-year-189895.html

Hmm, that represents 2.5% of teachers, and presumably relates almost entirely to Principals who have about 40 staff and have long careers behind them. As such, it hardly seems particularly extraordinary, does it.

Farmer Pudsey · 11-04-2012 5:03pm

Teachers have lost touch with reality especially the secondary school teachers in a school near us some teachers did not attend after the exam's. The Principle went on holidays while the leaving and junior cert exams were in progress, At least 2 got married during the normal school year in the last 3-4 years. When I go to collect the kids a lot of them are driving 40-50,000 euro cars. School trips are starting to beyond the ability of parents and the Pinciple only wants the parents council to fundraise for his own projects. The cost of after hours study for exam classes is outragous not to mind having a lazy teacher and having to pay for grind's to another teacher at 20-30 euro/hour or more

While some put in extra hours you get fed up listening to them about it and they consider helping at GAA Soccer or rubgy as this as if the rest of us who work 40 hours/week for 48 weeks do not

Dotsie~tmp · 11-04-2012 5:05pm

Hundreds of thousands of construction sector jobs and related industry jobs gone, up in smoke. No whining, no unions, no sit-ins, no RTE segment, no IDA task force, no Euro compo money. Self employed? eaten all your savings after a year or two? sorry NO DOLE either, go and rot. Can we ask someone to reverse the 100% pay cuts all these people "took"? Their silence amazes me. My silence amazes me. I'm f*cking one of them!

Teachers are entitled to fight their corner of course. Its the delusional element that jars. Do they really think they are that important? Maybe they are, people do like to talk about them constantly. My sisters a primary teacher. Some of the stories of waste and fraud she tells me make me belly laugh. Truth is I'm just jealous, but I'm not bitter, I swear!

byhookorbycrook · 11-04-2012 5:30pm

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

My sisters a primary teacher. Some of the stories of waste and fraud she tells me make me belly laugh. Truth is I'm just jealous, but I'm not bitter, I swear!

Do tell.

byhookorbycrook · 11-04-2012 5:37pm

sarumite wrote: »

I would agree that there is more to do than watching youtube, however for primary education at least the principle is not actually managing the teachers. S/he has very little authority in terms of the staff. The board of management of the school does much of that work. It should also be noted that, at least in years gone by, teachers were given 'posts' which meant that they had responsibility for certain aspects of running the school etc. I would say dealing with unruly students and their apathetic parents is probably a full time job in itself though in a medium to large school.

Posts have not been replaced, so if a teacher leaves a school the work they did for their post of responsibilty must be divided up amongst the staff. Principal has huge authority over the staff, s/he reports to the board of management, but the day to day running is down to the principal. Principal also has overall responsibilty for learning support and for curriculum and policy development(All of which must be adapted to the needs of the individual school.
As a rough idea of some of the policies to be formulated,here is a list.(Not exhaustive, by the way)

Absences
Access rights to children in schools
Acceptable Use
Accidents
Accommodation
Accounts
Administration
Administration of Medicine
Adult Bullying
Ancillary Staff
Anti-racism
Art therapy
Assembly
Assessment
Assistant Principals
Attendance
Audio-Visual Equipment

Behaviour (Discipline/Conduct)
Board of management
Book Fair
Bullying
Bus Safety

Career Breaks
Caretaker
Child Protection
Choir
Class Allocation
Class Size
Class Room Organisation
Commercialism
Communication
Complaints
Confidentiality
Council – Establishing a School Council
Course Days
Critical Incidents
Custody & Separation (also Access)

Data Protection & Record Retention
Diabetes
Disadvantage (also Inclusion)
Discipline (also Behaviour/Conduct)

EAL
Education Act 1998
Education Welfare Act
Emergency Phone Numbers
Emergency Closures
EPV Days
Equality
Electronic Games (and Mobile Phones)
Enrolment
Ethos
Excursions (School Tours & Excursions)
Exemptions – Irish
Exceptional Ability & Giftedness

Fieldtrips (School Tours & Excursions)
Fire Safety – Fire Drill & Evacuation
First Aid

Garda Vetting

Handwriting
Headlice
Hire & Use of School by Outside Groups
Home-School Links – HSCL Scheme
Homework
Health & Safety

Induction of New Teachers
ICT
Inclusion (also Disadvantage)
Induction of New & Infant Pupils
Inspectorate
Instrument Rental Agreement
In-school Management
Insurance
Internet
Internet Parent Permission
Intimate Care & Toileting

Job Sharing
Learning Support
Leave of Absence
Library
Litter
Lone Parent Families (under Custody & Separation)

Medical
Medication – Administration
Meetings
Mobile Phones
Multiculturalism

Newsletters

Parent Teacher Communication
Parent Teacher Meetings
Parents Associations
Phone – Staff & Children
Photocopying
Physical Intervention
Post-Primary Schools
Progress Reports (Pupil Profiling & Reporting)

Reading Schemes
Reception, Assembly & Dismissal of Pupils
Reconstitution of Classes (Classroom organisation)
RSE
Religious Education
Reports
Resources

Sanctions (Behaviour/Conduct/Discipline)
School Closings
School Evaluation
Schemes of Work
Secondments
Sexual Harassment
Sick Leave
SNAs
Splitting Classes
Sports
Staff Development (Teacher In-service)
Staff Meetings
Stay Safe
Substitute Teachers
Supervision
Suspension
Swimming

Testing
Timetables
Tours

Work Experience /Student Teachers
Whole School Evaluation

Dotsie~tmp · 11-04-2012 5:39pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Do tell.

She would cut my f*cking bollox off if it got back. No boat rockers allowed.

spurious · 11-04-2012 5:46pm

liammur wrote: »

Many teachers are on over €100K.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/1500-teachers-earn-up-to-115k-a-year-189895.html

Many men are rapists. Are you a man liammur?

Those figures are ludicrous. There are 750 second level schools in the country, less than 30 of them large enough to have Principals or Deputy Principals on such huge allowances. How does the Examiner make that into 1500 teachers?

Unbelievable crap.

Idbatterim · 11-04-2012 5:50pm

What I am dead against is the constant cutting of pay, pension and perks for new entrants into the PS, so that the ones currently in employment and in particular the higher up, can go on living in cloud cuckoo land!

Drumpot · 11-04-2012 6:20pm

The problem isnt the Unions or the teachers, its the government and to be honest our government isnt too differant from the yellow belly others who are afraid of their lives of strikes and facing down these vested interest groups. .

If you allow a child to think that they can do what they want for years you cant be surprised when they start throwing their toys out of the pram when you finally start trying to reel them in.

We need a supernanny government thats willing to do whatever it takes to put manners on their employees. Why ? Because its doing everybody elses head in listening to the whining of the vested few that expect the rest of us to prop up their remuneration.

They ignore questions on job protection or anything positive and act like they are the only victims in the countrys collapse. we are all victims and most of us dont have a choice - welfare, getting a job.

I dont believe that the government should continue discussing cuts with any department on the public payrole that has shown resistance to change. These vested groups do not understand how good they have it (yes good) in these austere times. They really and truely dont understand what is going on or what the cost is to everybody else (emotionally and financially).

Everybody has a sorry tale to tell, but for most of us, we dont have a bankrupt "sugar daddy" to fall back on.

The government has to get aggresive with the unions for the good of the country. Either that or make everybody else pay to prop up the current costs of a questionably efficient public/civil service.

nice_guy80 · 11-04-2012 6:29pm

liammur wrote: »

Can anybody tell me what a primary princial teacher does if they don't teach in the classroom ?

This is the type of waste that needs to be tackled.

why don't managers in a factory do all the assembly work too???

by the way, the majority of principals in primary schools DO teach.
Idiot.

nice_guy80 · 11-04-2012 6:33pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Do tell.

my school is run on a showstring budget.
only for fundraising by the parents association we'd barely be able to afford to pay the basic bills.

would love to know where the waste is located??

In my experience, it is the department of education and all the other associated departments and organisation is where the waste really is

jonniebgood1 · 11-04-2012 9:46pm

spurious wrote: »

Those figures are ludicrous. There are 750 second level schools in the country, less than 30 of them large enough to have Principals or Deputy Principals on such huge allowances. How does the Examiner make that into 1500 teachers?

Unbelievable crap.

What are your figures then? If you question the amounts quoted then you must have a more up to date figure...

jonniebgood1 · 11-04-2012 9:50pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

my school is run on a showstring budget.
only for fundraising by the parents association we'd barely be able to afford to pay the basic bills.

would love to know where the waste is located??

In my experience, it is the department of education and all the other associated departments and organisation is where the waste really is

It seems to be clear even if the quoted figures are high that the waste is in bloated salaries. So whilst parents associations raise money with difficulties to keep the schools going the teachers are taking home salaries of up to 50k (according to figures being discussed).

macbrada · 11-04-2012 10:10pm

Sick pay alert for 1,000 teachers who took 90-260 days off

MORE than 1,000 teachers were warned last year that their pay was at risk of being withdrawn if they took too many sick days.

These primary and secondary school teachers had been absent for between 90 days and 260 days in the past four years. They were warned that if their level of absences exceeded 365 days in a four-year period, their salary payments would be halted.

"In the event of your continued absence, your entitlement to salary will expire on (specified date)," the letters said.

It means that teachers out sick for more than 260 days in four years have missed the equivalent of at least an entire school year in the period -- given that the primary school year lasts 183 days, while secondary schools open for 167 days.
.
.http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sick-pay-alert-for-1000-teachers-who-took-90260-days-off-3046664.html

An example of the disgraceful abuse within the public 'service' which I believe is rampant in all sectors not just education.....

The solution is to reward the workers and remove rather than punish the dossers...yet again the obstacle is the unions who claim all members are hard workers. When will both non union and union members tell the union bosses to go away and let people represent themselves through their own performance

Farmer Pudsey · 11-04-2012 10:16pm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

It seems to be clear even if the quoted figures are high that the waste is in bloated salaries. So whilst parents associations raise money with difficulties to keep the schools going the teachers are taking home salaries of up to 50k (according to figures being discussed).

Replace with over

byhookorbycrook · 11-04-2012 10:28pm

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

She would cut my f*cking bollox off if it got back. No boat rockers allowed.

So you can make wild claims of waste and not back it up?

byhookorbycrook · 11-04-2012 10:30pm

macbrada wrote: »

Sick pay alert for 1,000 teachers who took 90-260 days off

MORE than 1,000 teachers were warned last year that their pay was at risk of being withdrawn if they took too many sick days.

These primary and secondary school teachers had been absent for between 90 days and 260 days in the past four years. They were warned that if their level of absences exceeded 365 days in a four-year period, their salary payments would be halted.

"In the event of your continued absence, your entitlement to salary will expire on (specified date)," the letters said.

It means that teachers out sick for more than 260 days in four years have missed the equivalent of at least an entire school year in the period -- given that the primary school year lasts 183 days, while secondary schools open for 167 days.
.
.http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sick-pay-alert-for-1000-teachers-who-took-90260-days-off-3046664.html

An example of the disgraceful abuse within the public 'service' which I believe is rampant in all sectors not just education.....

The solution is to reward the workers and remove rather than punish the dossers...yet again the obstacle is the unions who claim all members are hard workers. When will both non union and union members tell the union bosses to go away and let people represent themselves through their own performance

One of my friends is one of "those" teachers,has been battling breast cancer.

Overheal · 11-04-2012 11:08pm

Celticfire wrote: »

How much scrutiny is there of lazy parents I wonder? It's all well and good to blame teachers for little Johnny "Tiger" Cub's failings at school as that's the easy option. At secondary level it's up to students to "study" what was taught in school that day.

How many parents are happy to take the easy approach and let Johnny spend all his time out of school texting, Facebooking, playing Call Of Duty or Minecraft?

Parents are supposed to parent also. Give a teen the choice between 2 hours of study or 5 hours of Minecraft and see which one wins out.

Sure but how do you factor that into the issue of education cost? This aside from the issue that plenty of games hold education and skill-building values. Minecraft as you exemplify, I could argue promotes logical thinking, problem solving, and creativity. I think it's a bit of a cop out though to blame the parents, there are still glaring facts about the Irish education that dont simply add up to that. Too much money is paid out to the system to merely blame the parents.

Overheal · 11-04-2012 11:17pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

One of my friends is one of "those" teachers,has been battling breast cancer.

Surely there is a differentiation between a Sick Day and Fair Medical Leave (example).

I mean if not your friend should be treated accordingly, but I doubt thats the case for everyone in that tally. I'm willing to speculate that since there is no repercussion of lost pay for their sick days (true? false?) that they really don't mind taking days off like they were candy. I mean, if you had a salary job with no limit on sick days, wouldn't you?

femur61 · 12-04-2012 6:17am

Dirk Gently wrote: »

Not if they've been reading this forum. Someone keeps mentioning them every single day.

Yes they are unaware and I do speak from personal experience.

Markcheese · 12-04-2012 7:10am

How many hours a week are (permanent)secondary teachers contracted for ( teaching time), per week.. And how many hours do they do on average....
I remember hearing years ago that contract was aprox 23 hrs, but most taught 18 to 21 hrs.... This may well have changed... If not it would well be a relatively painless way of uping productivity ...

doc_17 · 12-04-2012 9:51am

Overheal wrote: »

Surely there is a differentiation between a Sick Day and Fair Medical Leave (example).

I mean if not your friend should be treated accordingly, but I doubt thats the case for everyone in that tally. I'm willing to speculate that since there is no repercussion of lost pay for their sick days (true? false?) that they really don't mind taking days off like they were candy. I mean, if you had a salary job with no limit on sick days, wouldn't you?[/QUOTE]

No.

bamboozle · 12-04-2012 10:08am

newstalk breakfast did a piece on the teachers this morning, they interviewed some student teachers, once of whom said something along the lines that their students union gave them figures that they'd be earning 11k less as new teaching entrants which works out at 420 quid a week (god help her future students when it comes to learning maths)

Colm O'Rourke was interviewed and was a voice of wisdom, basically saying as a teacher and principal he'd rather have more teachers earning less than less teachers earning more which is what the unions are interested in. Budgets are being cut and the reality needs to sink in.

my regard for O'Rourke shot up, good to see the kids education being put ahead of salaries.

and yes, before the usual responses of 'but we didnt cause the recession' we all are fully aware teachers didnt cause the recession, however their salaries increased significanty during the boom and need to be reduced.

Tigerandahalf · 12-04-2012 10:12am

Dont listen to ORourke. He is a bust property developer. No wonder he wants others to pick up the tab.

ardmacha · 12-04-2012 10:14am

however their salaries increased significanty during the boom and need to be reduced.

There salaries have already been reduced and by more than the general fall in salaries in the economy. General salaries are not falling at present.

antoobrien · 12-04-2012 10:16am

bamboozle wrote: »

and yes, before the usual responses of 'but we didnt cause the recession' we all are fully aware teachers didnt cause the recession

Given the fact that a large number of Irish children are functionally illiterate and a large number of Irish adults can't count or figure out that having as much/more debt than you can support is a bad thing I'd argue that point.

In their failures they're as culpable for the recession as the bankers, builders and borrowers they failed to adequately teach.

Fear_an_tarbh · 12-04-2012 10:29am

Tipp Man wrote: »

Per hour worked teaching must be the best paid job in the country

Yep, taking home under 30k for first 10 or 15 years if you're lucky :rolleyes:

Tipp Man wrote: »

22 hours a week for what 33 or 34 weeks - an absolute joke

The workload is closer to 50 hours a week.

Any other misconceptions you'd like to peddle?

beeftotheheels · 12-04-2012 10:39am

Fear_an_tarbh wrote: »

The workload is closer to 50 hours a week.

Perhaps for the very dedicated teachers who spend hours prepping for class and covering extra curricular activities (and we know they exist but they're a minority). I had two such teachers during my education, and witnessed one other. But that's 2 out of 30 odd.

For the vast majority it is not a 50 hour week. It is a 20 odd hour week at secondary, a bit more at primary, with exceptionally long holidays. And I type this as a teacher's daughter so I can state categorically that my Dad worked an 18 hour week towards the end because the curriculum hadn't changed so he didn't need to prep for class, he taught the same maths/ science day in day out.

He probably did some prep work when he was new to it, but he certainly didn't towards the end and he was actually a good teacher, one of the ones who cared, but not one of the ones who did extra curricular work.

He'd have loved to see the syllabus change, to actually have to do some work. But it didn't so he didn't.

Drumpot · 12-04-2012 10:55am

ardmacha wrote: »

There salaries have already been reduced and by more than the general fall in salaries in the economy. General salaries are not falling at present.

Government : "Well you see, the state employees dont really think its fair that they should have to take a paycut just because the state is bankrupt and sure afterall not everybody is on the end of paycuts, many people in the private sector lost their jobs, but there are many of them who havent had the same kind of paycuts our employees are worrying about" . .

EU/IMF : "Sure why didnt you say so, when you put it like that it would be ludicrous to try to cut down one of your biggest costs. You are better off increasing taxation for everybody, savaging social welfare (sure arent they all spongers!) and slashing the state Pension. Dont worry about the social ramifications or the impact on the economy, once the state employees are looked after, we are sure everything will work out fine".

gagiteebo · 12-04-2012 11:07am

The misconceptions about teachers and teaching on this thread and the many others that have sprouted up recently are just mind boggling. Although in one respect I cannot blame people for their reactions, many of them are without fact and are based on hearsay and are being spoonfed absolute crap by the media.

I've been teaching in secondary schools for 6 years. No I don't have the 'cushy' job that everyone seems to think. I don't have full hours - that is not just reserved for new entrants. I am barely scraping by, I'm earning nowhere near 100k (how sensationalist, yeah open your thread with that claim and of course you are going to get people riled up), I don't drive a fancy car, ha it's actually falling to pieces at the minute but I can't afford to bring it to the mechanic. Yes, I know many people are in the same position for a myriad of other reasons but no other profession gets the bashing we are getting.

My work day doesn't end at 4, I'm often in school until 6 or after. No we can't take as many sick days as we want as someone ignorantly pointed out. I get 5 sick days in a year then I'm docked pay. Summer holidays, teacher bashers big argument, I work during the summer holidays and not to pay for fancy holidays and such but to pay for things like food and bills.

Yes there are bad teachers, there are bad workers in every profession, it is not confined to just teaching.

Why did I go into teaching then you ask? Well I love my subjects, I love young people and working with them and naively thought I would be making a difference and be in a respectable profession. What a joke, I have lost count of how many times someone will say 'Oh well for ya', 'Nice cushy job' etc when I tell them what I do. Anyone could have become a teacher, it's not selective. There is no respect for teachers anymore and that is sad because anyone I know works their ass off. It wasn't for the salary if 'over 100k' or the summer holidays.

I am not looking for sympathy or anything close, I just think it's about time people stopped tarring us all with the same brush.

Permabear · 12-04-2012 11:21am

This post has been deleted.

bamboozle · 12-04-2012 11:21am

ardmacha wrote: »

There salaries have already been reduced and by more than the general fall in salaries in the economy. General salaries are not falling at present.

i take it you're not including the salaries that have disappeared from the economy over the last 4 years?

aside from that, the govt needs to balance its books, there's a shortfall of billions between tax receipts and payments (excluding bail out of bank bonds) this gap needs to be closed.

bamboozle · 12-04-2012 11:24am

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Dont listen to ORourke. He is a bust property developer. No wonder he wants others to pick up the tab.

bewildering comment, in reality there is a budget for the dept of education, this budget accounts for over 7% of govt expenditure,

O'Rourke's position is should we

A: focus on improving educational needs of our children by having more teachers paid less money

B: ignore our childrens educational needs by paying less teachers more.

its simple really.

femur61 · 12-04-2012 11:34am

bamboozle wrote: »

i take it you're not including the salaries that have disappeared from the economy over the last 4 years?

aside from that, the govt needs to balance its books, there's a shortfall of billions between tax receipts and payments (excluding bail out of bank bonds) this gap needs to be closed.

Thats what I don't understand I've already posted my thoughts on this but teachers and everyone in the public sector don't seem to understand if the taxes aren't coming in then there is going to be shortfall. Nobody in the public sector creates wealth my taxes paid their wages, paid past tense as self explanatory why I'm at the computer this time of the morning. Unfortunately I was self employed so I'm not eligible for SW even though I was an employer.

gagiteebo · 12-04-2012 11:40am

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The thing is I'm not a 'new' teacher, I've been teaching for 6, going on 7 years, in that time I've lived in about 5 different counties, not by choice but if I wanted a job that's what I had to do.

It's only going to be worse for new entrants. That's all very well about senior colleagues etc but the cuts in allowances etc etc are not going to affect them, they are on the road to retirement. They are going to affect me and the people coming after me. This is the reality. My senior colleagues are on nice saleries I won't dispute that, but they'll be gone soon and we'll be left to deal with the mess.

beeftotheheels · 12-04-2012 11:47am

gagiteebo wrote: »

The thing is I'm not a 'new' teacher, I've been teaching for 6, going on 7 years, in that time I've lived in about 5 different counties, not by choice but if I wanted a job that's what I had to do.

It's only going to be worse for new entrants. That's all very well about senior colleagues etc but the cuts in allowances etc etc are not going to affect them, they are on the road to retirement. They are going to affect me and the people coming after me. This is the reality. My senior colleagues are on nice saleries I won't dispute that, but they'll be gone soon and we'll be left to deal with the mess.

But this is the point. Allowances for non teaching duties will predominantly be being paid to older teachers. Which then impacts on their pension entitlements.

We need to scrap allowances which would then make funds available for younger, generally more enthusiastic and more motivated teachers.

But so long as teachers act like a homogeneous group protecting the older, over paid and in many cases burnt out teachers who teach rote learning and don't want the boat to rock at all on their way to retirement, the risk will remain that people will tar all teachers with the same brush.

Younger teachers should make the point that they want to rock the boat, they want to change the system and improve teaching standards. That they have the enthusiasm and are willing to put in the work which I don't doubt for one minute. But they also need to openly criticize the status quo which is overpaying the generally less productive teachers whilst underpaying the more productive contingent.

It is not enough to say "they'll retire in a few years and then things will change". That's what's been said for so long up to this point and things have never changed.

Permabear · 12-04-2012 12:00pm

This post has been deleted.

mikemac1 · 12-04-2012 12:43pm

Sure it's like armies across the world

Run by the senior staff for the benefit of the senior staff

doc_17 · 12-04-2012 1:49pm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I've seen you post this a few timess. Was there a department that didn't see its' budget increase in those years?

The increase was not just to teachers pay. We have about 10,500 special needs assistants in the system now, which is a huge increase from 2000. 10-15 years ago lots of students didn't go to school in Ireland.

And just a stat I'd like to get in is this: Ireand is number 1 in the OECD for graduation at second level. If you think education is expensive, try ignorance (not my quote).

Yes money has to be saved, personally I don't think anyone in Irish Education (including the Minister) should be earning more than 90K. Not that many are mind you, despite that trash article that was posted.

There are moves I would like to see in relation to middle management posts that could save money but it's becoming increasingly difficult, and pointless as well to be honest, even posting here anymore as most have there minds made up and dicussion just goes round in circles.

Permabear · 12-04-2012 2:09pm

This post has been deleted.

titan18 · 12-04-2012 5:11pm

doc_17 wrote: »

And just a stat I'd like to get in is this: Ireand is number 1 in the OECD for graduation at second level. If you think education is expensive, try ignorance (not my quote).

Tbf, as someone who has recently come through second level education, the standards are sh1t, the LC is marked far too easy, and being able to rote learn doesn't make someone intelligent. It doesn't matter if people are coming out graduating if they're coming out with a poor level of education.

20Cent · 12-04-2012 5:18pm

Like anyone is going to volunteer a paycut, fair play to the teachers sticking up for themselves and a dignified protest to what has been an unprecedented attack. Teachers have done all that has been asked of them in the Croke park agreement, the patronising comments by the minister are not helpful.

Dannyboy83 · 12-04-2012 5:57pm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

@gagiteebo
I would like to know your response to this point please.

macbrada · 12-04-2012 8:35pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

One of my friends is one of "those" teachers,has been battling breast cancer.

I empathise with your friend with breast cacer and hope her battle is successful.......however in any other job outside the public sector, a person unable to attend work for health reasons has job protection under EU law but would not receive full pay for more than a finite period. A private sector person in similar circumstances may receive full pay for 2/3 months and thereafter welfare payments.

doc_17 · 12-04-2012 9:06pm

sorry Permabear...I got that one wrong. That graph you posted, from the very same file, a few graphs down, is where the confusion arises. My fault.

Anyway question for you.....

The Education Budget, from primary right through to third level is approx 8.5billion. What should it be and what would you do to get us there?

ardmacha · 12-04-2012 10:47pm

We spend more than the OECD average as a percent of GDP, and spending increased by a whopping 83 percent between the years 2000 and 2008.

Since GDP has gone down and demand for education has gone up, this may be true today. However, Ireland did not spend more than the OECD average as a percent of GDP in 2000 or 2008. Spending did increase, but so did numbers, for instance third level numbers increased by 27% and there was a real decline in spending per student. A continued increase in student numbers is part of the reason why education spending has not dropped. Pay did increase substantially and has been cut.

If you point is that there was enough money, then that is fair enough. Equally some of that money was put to good use and some of it wasn't, and the latter is not acceptable. In Ireland of the boom, money was spent without any clear objective about what the spending was designed to achieve. The wish to spend money has diminished, but the clarity of the objectives haven't changed much.

jumpguy · 13-04-2012 1:57am

Pupil-teacher ratios, rural schools, special needs assistance, capital investment all need more money. There is no more money. Frequently you hear teachers bleating that we need more money to fund these things, never do they suggest where the money could come from, or that they might take a 5% pay cut to keep the show on the road (the private sector have been inflicted with a lot worse).

The Croke Park Agreement was an utter monstrosity, and will probably go down in history as one of the key mistakes in the continuation of our fiscal woes.

Ruairí Quinn: Teachers don't appreciate gravity of economic crisis

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