to change or not to change

opinionated3 · 20-11-2014 1:54pm #1

Hi all. I currently play a set of callaway razr x irons which i bought a few years ago when they were first released. I was playing off 17 back then. .... generally inconsistent ball striking etc. Typical 17 handicapper in other words. I'm now down to 13 and improving all the time. My question is at what stage do you move from game improvement irons (which i understood the razr x were) on to better player irons? Please don't get me wrong I'm not being big headed here. I was just wondering would someone like me who is improving and practising a lot gain anything from say moving to mizuno mp's or taylormade rsi 2 etc? Christmas is coming and normally my parents and siblings give me vouchers for the shop of my choice. The thought crossed my mind to trade up to new irons. .....

Rikand · 20-11-2014 2:06pm

You change when your game improvement irons stop improving your game... and not a second sooner

Russman · 20-11-2014 2:17pm

Rikand wrote: »

You change when your game improvement irons stop improving your game... and not a second sooner

He speaks the truth ^^^

opinionated3 · 20-11-2014 3:01pm

But what do the better irons offer that's different?

benny79 · 20-11-2014 3:10pm

Custom fitted clubs be more suited, game improvement irons just help the ball get in the air quicker higher and ur misses not to be as bad better player irons would help you with maybe more distance but more so in shaping the ball, but you obviously have to know how too!

My advice get custom fitted with the likes of the Titleist test centre or foregolf or the likes..

Nozebleed · 20-11-2014 3:56pm

Id wait until you reach single figures an the treat yourself to a custom fit set.

the lawman · 20-11-2014 4:23pm

Not sure if this will answer your question but I'll give you my current decision on the exact same question.

I went from 13 to 9 this year and I always said Id treat myself to fitted 'player' irons but I just didn't think I'm hitting my irons well enough or more importantly consistent enough to warrant a change. So I'm waiting until the new year with lessons over the winter to see where I am then.

In short I don't feel I'm ready for less forgiving irons just yet. I guess only you can answer the question for yourself.

Can't wait to get there mind!

benny79 · 20-11-2014 4:33pm

@ Lawman I had game improvement irons and was very inconsistent and taught the same, but after a few months wasn't getting any better so just went ahead and got fitted was told it was my irons holding me back and am much more consistent now with my new clubs(after getting fitted)! pity I can't say the same about my woods

but getting there.......

ForeRight · 20-11-2014 4:33pm

opinionated3 wrote: »

But what do the better irons offer that's different?

But what are better irons?
The blade and forged irons are not as forgiving as what you have now so may set you back if your ball striking is not super consistent.

You hit a bad strike now you have a bit of play with the irons and might get away with it but hit the same with a blade and you are in big trouble.

It's not as simple as being that you are just ready for top end clubs because your handicap is coming down.

If I was you I'd invest the money in lessons and keep what you have while you are going well.

FixdePitchmark · 20-11-2014 6:05pm

I was hitting the ball very well early last year and was down to 6/7.
So got the idea should try blades, hit a few and realised how much my gi irons were doing for me. they are so small it is actually a big mental jump.

Then a few weeks ago I got a nine iron in blades to test and was very happy with accuracy and flight.

I sort of was thinking , some of the progressive sets are an option say for the high low figure player, in other words you may need to go in that gap from gi irons to pure blades - not sure the name of the group of clubs. So easier to hit low iron , but more blade like towards pw.

I have Jpx 800 and they are very long and forgiving. They have a sort of hot spot that ball will go miles. Distance control hard enough, but that is made worse by my swing.

Very , very hard to shape a shot if good enough.

The pw is far too big and ugly for a club that should be getting refined IMO.

But loved them, they were my first real golf set and got me from 12 to 6 - now 7.

So in the same boat, but have decided to reshape / fix swing a bit and review in winter.

Lads have said what are you doing with them clubs, funny.

a) I think blades are for lads well under 5
b) If you stop playing and practicing , it is easier to go back to GI irons
c) at our level do you not need all the help you can get ?
d) I think the blade thing is an ego thing for some.
e) I'll stay open minded , but not sure they do " push on your game" ? Not from most gi irons.

But I think if I get below 5 next year, curiosity will get the better of me.

Montgolfier · 20-11-2014 6:09pm

I play TM mc iron from when I was 21 hcp to now 16 hcp.
Just didn't like big clunky irons. They also gave a lot of feed back and feel. SO play whatever clubs you like you will get used to them eventually. I don't believe that certain clubs are for high hcp and others for the low boys.
If you have trouble with ball striking, you simply have to improve to hit them.

FixdePitchmark · 20-11-2014 6:13pm

Montgolfier wrote: »

I play TM mc iron from when I was 21 hcp to now 16 hcp.
Just didn't like big clunky irons. They also gave a lot of feed back and feel. SO play whatever clubs you like you will get used to them eventually. I don't believe that certain clubs are for high hcp and others for the low boys.
If you have trouble with ball striking, you simply have to improve to hit them.

I 100 % believe.

Sure they are designed in that way.

dan_ep82 · 20-11-2014 7:23pm

I think you should play what you like and are confident with, its meant to be fun after all.

Russman · 20-11-2014 8:01pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I was hitting the ball very well early last year and was down to 6/7.
So got the idea should try blades, hit a few and realised how much my gi irons were doing for me. they are so small it is actually a big mental jump.

Then a few weeks ago I got a nine iron in blades to test and was very happy with accuracy and flight.

I sort of was thinking , some of the progressive sets are an option say for the high low figure player, in other words you may need to go in that gap from gi irons to pure blades - not sure the name of the group of clubs. So easier to hit low iron , but more blade like towards pw.

I have Jpx 800 and they are very long and forgiving. They have a sort of hot spot that ball will go miles. Distance control hard enough, but that is made worse by my swing.

Very , very hard to shape a shot if good enough.

The pw is far too big and ugly for a club that should be getting refined IMO.

But loved them, they were my first real golf set and got me from 12 to 6 - now 7.

So in the same boat, but have decided to reshape / fix swing a bit and review in winter.

Lads have said what are you doing with them clubs, funny.

a) I think blades are for lads well under 5
b) If you stop playing and practicing , it is easier to go back to GI irons
c) at our level do you not need all the help you can get ?
d) I think the blade thing is an ego thing for some.
e) I'll stay open minded , but not sure they do " push on your game" ? Not from most gi irons.

But I think if I get below 5 next year, curiosity will get the better of me.

Excellent post.
IMO and strictly IMO, the idea that blades somehow "make" you play better is a load of old tosh. Similarly you hear guys say their swings get sloppy if they use cavities, more rubbish. Yes, blades are prettier, and that's definitely an important factor in settling on a set, but, for me at least, I can learn to like a club pretty quickly if the results are good.

Many moons ago I went from 5/6 handicap down to 3 shortly after switching from blades to cavities - never felt I was missing out on anything by playing a bigger iron or never felt there was a shot I could hit with a blade and not with a cavity iron.

To the Op, play whatever you like, try various different sets, but don't think there aren't scratch players out there playing chunky Pings who need/want all the help they can get, or don't feel you "have" to change once you get to a certain level. If blades work for you, by all means use them, but base the choice on your own game and results.

Montgolfier · 20-11-2014 8:42pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I 100 % believe.

Sure they are designed in that way.

TM mc's have a cavity I suppose so not really blades .

PARlance · 20-11-2014 9:37pm

I play GI irons (Mx300) in my long irons and blades in my short (Titliest 735's).
Was playing that set up off 18 and down to 12 and can't see myself changing if I go lower.

Like to tell myself that I'm getting the best of both worlds and that's the set up that gives me most confidence.

But ultimately, if I thin, fat, sh**k a shot, it's not going to pretty with any iron. Same if my swing is causing a hook, pull, push etc or if I'm hitting it perfect but aiming 20 yards right... None of the forgiveness or playability in the world is going to help me much tbh.

To get the forgiveness from GI irons I think you need to be hitting it almost perfect, a low guy is going to be doing that a lot more often so I don't know why there's a lower limit in some people's head for using GI irons.

I think they're of more use the lower the HC. That's my thinking with most golf club technology tbh, marketed at the higher HC's but most useful to lower guys that can consistently benefit from it.

FixdePitchmark · 20-11-2014 9:43pm

Whilest I have found this hot shot (15 - 20 yard extra) - on GI irons

Is he a little contradictory on shaping here - as he then explains the wide sole controls club face rather than player on shaping.

In fairness - he went off and did the test.

Tiger has a combo set.

dines08 · 20-11-2014 9:56pm

4-7 iron GI irons
8-PW players irons with a bit of forgiveness. Ie:mizuno mp 15's. Not necessarily bladed. Best of both worlds

FixdePitchmark · 20-11-2014 9:58pm

dines08 wrote: »

4-7 iron GI irons
8-PW players irons with a bit of forgiveness. Ie:mizuno mp 15's. Not necessarily bladed. Best of both worlds

That is the way I'd be thinking - I'd just keep what I have up to 7/8.

Only thing - you may find loft progression out of sequence. As GI irons may have strong lofts.

dines08 · 20-11-2014 10:01pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

That is the way I'd be thinking - I'd just keep what I have up to 7/8.

Only thing - you may find loft progression out of sequence. As GI irons may have strong lofts.

Found that with taylormade. Had a combo set of rocketblades and rocketblade tours and had to weaken the loft on the GI irons and strengthen the tours. Otherwise there was a 7 degree gap between 7 and 8 iron. Mizuno are the way to go on this one, especially this year. Mizuno H5 in the long irons and Mp 15's in the scoring. The loft and length progression is seamless

opinionated3 · 21-11-2014 12:00pm

dines08 wrote: »

Found that with taylormade. Had a combo set of rocketblades and rocketblade tours and had to weaken the loft on the GI irons and strengthen the tours. Otherwise there was a 7 degree gap between 7 and 8 iron. Mizuno are the way to go on this one, especially this year. Mizuno H5 in the long irons and Mp 15's in the scoring. The loft and length progression is seamless

But how do you actually buy a set like that? I mean if i was to get fitted in say mcguirks would they actually sell me a half and half set like that? Btw Thanks a lot for all the replies folks. ... everything helps. I love my golf and would love nothing better than to get to single figures so basically I'll take any help i can get.

billy3sheets · 21-11-2014 12:13pm

I play off 16 and have 3 (old) sets. Blades (Titleist ??), mid-size (Ping i5) and chunky (Mizuno MX-25). I've rotated between them over last few years, finding that I might prefer the heavier set in winter time or when I was off on another set.
I've never found blades to be more difficult or less forgiving - if you're hitting it well, you're hitting it well.

I'd suggest buying or buying a cheap 2nd hand set of blades and trying them out. If you don't like them you can probably re-sell at a small enough loss.

Russman · 21-11-2014 12:37pm

billy3sheets wrote: »

I play off 16 and have 3 (old) sets. Blades (Titleist ??), mid-size (Ping i5) and chunky (Mizuno MX-25). I've rotated between them over last few years, finding that I might prefer the heavier set in winter time or when I was off on another set.
I've never found blades to be more difficult or less forgiving - if you're hitting it well, you're hitting it well.

I'd suggest buying or buying a cheap 2nd hand set of blades and trying them out. If you don't like them you can probably re-sell at a small enough loss.

Very true, but there's no denying that when you're not quite hitting it 100% the cavities offer that little bit of help that blades don't. Personally I think that if the good shots are much the same with each club, why would someone not go for the extra help ? Everyone will have their own answer/reasons of course.

alxmorgan · 21-11-2014 1:33pm

GI irons to blades ? Way too much of a jump IMHO.
Go for something a bit more neat if you want to.

I moved from Cobra S9s to Mizuno Mx200s and love them. Forged feel is lovely and they still are forgiving without looking like shovels.

FixdePitchmark · 21-11-2014 8:45pm

opinionated3 wrote: »

But how do you actually buy a set like that? I mean if i was to get fitted in say mcguirks would they actually sell me a half and half set like that? Btw Thanks a lot for all the replies folks. ... everything helps. I love my golf and would love nothing better than to get to single figures so basically I'll take any help i can get.

I don't think getting to single figures is about clubs.

FixdePitchmark · 21-11-2014 8:56pm

From the thread here and for the laugh - hit the mp 15 today.

Stunning - they are lovely to hit - am actually hitting them well lately. So this helped.
Was very impressed - seem to be a good step rather than a crazy step - a bit of a middle ground from GI irons to Blades. They are targeted at handicap of 0 to 8 players.

Loved them. They seem they would be perfect for me.

But jaysus - they are expensive.

If I get to 5 - I'm going to get a set 2nd hand next summer.

By the way - the number of clubs and names at this stage - is absolutely mind boggling - very large and confusing.
I mean you could look at many of irons - they look so similar.

opinionated3 · 21-11-2014 10:42pm

Mizuno must surely make some of the best looking clubs in world golf! ! I think having read what people are saying here, I'm just gonna keep playing as regularly as possible over the winter months and try to keep progressing with my game. I do have one issue with my current set that i must address. .... There is too much of a gap between my hybrid and 5 iron. I have no 4 iron. Distances between 175 and 195 cause me problems.

alxmorgan · 21-11-2014 11:28pm

opinionated3 wrote: »

Mizuno must surely make some of the best looking clubs in world golf! ! I think having read what people are saying here, I'm just gonna keep playing as regularly as possible over the winter months and try to keep progressing with my game. I do have one issue with my current set that i must address. .... There is too much of a gap between my hybrid and 5 iron. I have no 4 iron. Distances between 175 and 195 cause me problems.

What degree is hybrid ?

Dossy · 22-11-2014 12:16am

Id love a set of Titleist MB's myself, i have the AP1's but im getting a loan of a set of MB's to try out in the winter. Its NOT an image thing i just love them irons, ill give feedback in the next 2 weeks if you want....

opinionated3 · 22-11-2014 6:43am

alxmorgan wrote: »

What degree is hybrid ?

22 degree rbz

alxmorgan · 22-11-2014 2:59pm

opinionated3 wrote: »

22 degree rbz

A second hybrid of 25/26 degrees might bridge the gap ?

Dossy · 22-11-2014 11:12pm

Russman wrote: »

Very true, but there's no denying that when you're not quite hitting it 100% the cavities offer that little bit of help that blades don't. Personally I think that if the good shots are much the same with each club, why would someone not go for the extra help ? Everyone will have their own answer/reasons of course.

Agree with you 100%
In Golf if you can get help in a simple way like this why not, i dont have Blades i have AP1's and i find it great that if i catch it heavy the ball will still go nearly the distance i need it too......iv heard that with the Blades this is not the case....heavy turns into a chunk

My reason/answer is that i personally like the look of Blades and i think alot of people would like the Blades for this reason, traditional look and all that.

galwaylad14 · 23-11-2014 6:49am

Lee Westwood and Graeme McDowell don't feel the need for blades so don't see why a 13 handicap would need them to be honest

opinionated3 · 23-11-2014 10:34am

alxmorgan wrote: »

A second hybrid of 25/26 degrees might bridge the gap ?

I've actually looked around for them. ...kinda hard to source.... Must look harder

alxmorgan · 23-11-2014 5:28pm

opinionated3 wrote: »

I've actually looked around for them. ...kinda hard to source.... Must look harder

http://www.halpennygolf.com/taylormade-rbz-stage-rescue-p-1595.html

Comes in 25 degree

ShivasIrons · 23-11-2014 6:40pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I don't think getting to single figures is about clubs.

Do you think an adult golfer could get to single figures using a junior set?

Ciaranra · 24-11-2014 10:34am

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Do you think an adult golfer could get to single figures using a junior set?

X jockey might

FixdePitchmark · 24-11-2014 11:20am

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Do you think an adult golfer could get to single figures using a junior set?

We are not being daft.

But I could get to single figures with Dunlop clubs from off a shelf.

clubs are the last thing you worry about. Once they and you fit.
That can be done in a shop.

benny79 · 24-11-2014 11:28am

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

We are not being daft.

But I could get to single figures with Dunlop clubs from off a shelf.

clubs are the last thing you worry about. Once they and you fit.
That can be done in a shop.

Make a interesting experiment! but I'd have to disagree with you I think clubs do make a difference to a certain extent! it be like racing with a Ferrari and a micra!

opinionated3 · 24-11-2014 11:39am

alxmorgan wrote: »

http://www.halpennygolf.com/taylormade-rbz-stage-rescue-p-1595.html

Comes in 25 degree

Sorry al ..... Should have mentioned I'm a leftie. Have been trying various websites but to no avail. ....

FixdePitchmark · 24-11-2014 12:04pm

benny79 wrote: »

Make a interesting experiment! but I'd have to disagree with you I think clubs do make a difference to a certain extent! it be like racing with a Ferrari and a micra!

But a car has an internal combustion engine - 1000s of moving parts and multiple components.

A golf club is a simple object that has not changed much, in what ? 30 years, the minor changes have not resulted in dramatic score reductions in amateurs.

I'm saying if you go into a golf shop - buy clubs with the lad in store next to you - if a guy has the ability and time - he will get to singles figures with them.

The OP is off 13 and still improving - best advice on thread was , keep using your GI irons till you stop improving - the GI irons have got him from 17 down.

Look at his stats see where his shots are going.

Talking about blades is not really on the agenda yet. Unless you just want a Ferrari - yes that is every golfers right, it is a free world - men love their toys.

I think we all know behind it all - that the golf industry has overcooked what a golf club can do at this stage. If we are all honest with ourselves - we know what is wrong with our games - for example - I'm OTT and poor at putting and only ok with chipping. No club solution for me - and I'm saying for the overwhelming majority of golf problems on this forum .

The vast majority of clubs are the same general shape - same ideas of weight distribution etc. Lots of the GI irons look the same. They don't even look far off
these cubs from the 80s.

And it was no issue getting to single figures then - some of the even cheaper clubs from Argos etc - have basically stolen this design (I'm not saying buy clubs in Argos) - but it shows how simple the intellectual properties of golf clubs are stolen and replicated. Typically most golf clubs are externally machined/forged and shaped - a modern CAM machine can copy it in minutes in a dodgy factory in China. There is very few clubs with complex internal design/machining.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer-aided_manufacturing

Of course clubs make a bit of a difference - but this is not a concern off 13 - it may be an issue when you get very low.

If your improving stick with it - know where you are losing your shots. When you are stagnant - your swing is fine - your short game is perfect - explore clubs then (Once you clubs are reasonable enough - clearly the op has no issue with clubs yet)

Back to the car - yes a Ferrari and a Micra can get you from a to b - that is all we are trying to do , we can often convince ourselves there is merit in a Ferrari.

benny79 · 24-11-2014 12:27pm

So whats the difference in a Titleist set of irons for €800 and and a Dunlop set for €200 is it the Technology or good marketing, since you reckon it doesn't make a difference.

FixdePitchmark · 24-11-2014 12:42pm

benny79 wrote: »

So whats the difference in a Titleist set of irons for €800 and and a Dunlop set for €200 is it the Technology or good marketing, since you reckon it doesn't make a difference.

Marketing and exposure on TV and golf magazines. Sponsoring top pros.

Yes there is slight difference in manufacturing quality etc. finish - material selection R and D - Typically the newer companies are newer to the market with the slight technical modifications. But as users we have no knowledge - only trust in the more expensive companies in their quality control.

And without researching it too much - youll find some of the companies producing expensive irons - have reduced manufacturing costs in the big bad modern competitive world. A bit like Germans cars not being German cars these days.

Forging was invented in the Iron age - how a 200 euro iron is manufactured is identical to how an 800 euro iron is manufactured.

But we are talking about a lad getting from 13 to single figures.
The quality of the intentergranualr structure of Dunlop V Titleist is of no concern to him.

the 600 euro differential is not going to make a difference here.

But by all means - buy them if they make you happy - life is short enough,

Montgolfier · 24-11-2014 1:45pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Marketing and exposure on TV and golf magazines. Sponsoring top pros.

Yes there is slight difference in manufacturing quality etc. finish - material selection R and D - Typically the newer companies are newer to the market with the slight technical modifications. But as users we have no knowledge - only trust in the more expensive companies in their quality control.

And without researching it too much - youll find some of the companies producing expensive irons - have reduced manufacturing costs in the big bad modern competitive world. A bit like Germans cars not being German cars these days.

Forging was invented in the Iron age - how a 200 euro iron is manufactured is identical to how an 800 euro iron is manufactured.

But we are talking about a lad getting from 13 to single figures.
The quality of the intentergranualr structure of Dunlop V Titleist is of no concern to him.

the 600 euro differential is not going to make a difference here.

But by all means - buy them if they make you happy - life is short enough,

Your talking out your behind now, because cheaper clubs are cast not forged hence why they are cheap.
Ping club are cast but are far superior to Dunlop clubs.
Feel is a major factor in irons that's why people pay more, feel is what's gives you confidence to play your best.

FixdePitchmark · 24-11-2014 1:54pm

Montgolfier wrote: »

Your talking out your behind now, because cheaper clubs are cast not forged hence why they are cheap.
Ping club are cast but are far superior to Dunlop clubs.
Feel is a major factor in irons that's why people pay more, feel is what's gives you confidence to play your best.

I'm aware of both manufacturing processes.
Some expensive clubs are also cast.

But we are talking about a lad getting from 13 here.

Ciaranra · 24-11-2014 2:05pm

alxmorgan wrote: »

What degree is hybrid ?

Montgolfier wrote: »

Your talking out your behind now, because cheaper clubs are cast not forged hence why they are cheap.
Ping club are cast but are far superior to Dunlop clubs.
Feel is a major factor in irons that's why people pay more, feel is what's gives you confidence to play your best.

Your missing the point its alot to do with ability without it makes no difference what you use.
A lad of 13 in my opionion should use cavity irons.
Tried blades last year for a few weeks but the difference in ball striking when i switched back 2 my 2.0

Ciaranra · 24-11-2014 2:05pm

alxmorgan wrote: »

What degree is hybrid ?

Montgolfier wrote: »

Your talking out your behind now, because cheaper clubs are cast not forged hence why they are cheap.
Ping club are cast but are far superior to Dunlop clubs.
Feel is a major factor in irons that's why people pay more, feel is what's gives you confidence to play your best.

Your missing the point its alot to do with ability without it makes no difference what you use.
A lad of 13 in my opionion should use cavity irons.
Tried blades last year for a few weeks but the difference in ball striking when i switched back 2 my 2.0

Dossy · 02-12-2014 2:28pm

Just on the point of the major brands vs likes of dunlop clubs.
I know a guy who has a mixed set of clubs, nearly all the irons are different and he plays off 7 so as much as i would be one for tech gear and doing the research it all comes down to natural ability.
Some of us have to practice alot to get down others dont....

to change or not to change

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