State 'can save €80m' by tendering for PSO bus services

antoinolachtnai · 08-11-2011 11:37pm

Alek, there is absolutely no 'tendering regime'. No route has ever been tendered.

Under the law of ireland as it stands, there is no requirement to tender routes in 2014, nor does the NTA have any plan to do so. You are talking about directions that the minister hypothetically might make, but that he hasn't. You are talking about licensed routes, which have nothing at all to do with PSO routes. Has your management or union pointed you to a specific EU requirement to tender in 2014?

AlekSmart · 09-11-2011 12:08am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Alek, there is absolutely no 'tendering regime'. No route has ever been tendered.

Under the law of ireland as it stands, there is no requirement to tender routes in 2014, nor does the NTA have any plan to do so. You are talking about directions that the minister hypothetically might make, but that he hasn't. You are talking about licensed routes, which have nothing at all to do with PSO routes. Has your management or union pointed you to a specific EU requirement to tender in 2014?

I'm suggesting Antoin,that's your interpretation of the law as it stands.

I'm reading the same pieces of leglislation in a different light.

However,the actuality is that until 2014,or the statutory public review in 2013,nobody yet knows what the NTA will do.

However if you are suggesting that the Status Quo will prevail,then I would have to differ.

Changes are afoot,in many of the areas left untouched for decades,but the once popular chorus of "Privatize it" has not been quite so loud in recent times.....We'll just have to wait n see I guess....;)

markpb · 09-11-2011 12:15am

Where, officially, does the 2014 date come from?

antoinolachtnai · 09-11-2011 12:25am

End of the first direct award (untendered) contract. And there has to be a review at that time.

antoinolachtnai · 09-11-2011 1:29am

AlekSmart wrote: »

I'm suggesting Antoin,that's your interpretation of the law as it stands.

I'm reading the same pieces of leglislation in a different light.

That may be, but you have produced no evidence that bus contracts are going out to tender in 2014, or ever.

However,the actuality is that until 2014,or the statutory public review in 2013,nobody yet knows what the NTA will do.

However if you are suggesting that the Status Quo will prevail,then I would have to differ.

Changes are afoot,in many of the areas left untouched for decades,but the once popular chorus of "Privatize it" has not been quite so loud in recent times.....We'll just have to wait n see I guess....;)

I agree with you. There has been no decision to change anything. A lot of changes are needed to bring costs into line for one thing, and to provide a good, uniform quality of service on the other.

If the outcome of a statutory review in 2013 is a decision to put routes out to tender, there will be no possibility of a new contractor coming in before 2016 at the earliest.

No one is talking about privatizing anything.

n97 mini · 09-11-2011 10:15am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If the outcome of a statutory review in 2013 is a decision to put routes out to tender, there will be no possibility of a new contractor coming in before 2016 at the earliest.

Why do these things take so long?

And why do we have to wait till 2013 to begin a review? It's a review... it doesn't actually change anything.

antoinolachtnai · 09-11-2011 10:27am

There can be a review earlier if the NTA likes, but it is up to the NTA. If you think the NTA should hold a review now, you should write to your TD and tell them what you think. You could say that you think the Minister should direct that a review should be held under Section 52 (6)(b) of the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008, with a view to improving the quality, scale and cost-effectiveness of bus transport.

schemingbohemia · 09-11-2011 12:02pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There can be a review earlier if the NTA likes, but it is up to the NTA. If you think the NTA should hold a review now, you should write to your TD and tell them what you think. You could say that you think the Minister should direct that a review should be held under Section 52 (6)(b) of the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008, with a view to improving the quality, scale and cost-effectiveness of bus transport.

Have you asked for a review?

You're asking Alek to provide proof for something that hasn't happened yet, and when he fails to do so you think that's proof that it's not going to happen, there's a logic fail there.

My reading of the Act concurs with Alek. The important thing to remember is that the NTA can unilaterally change the contracts with the current providers. That's a pretty big stick right there.

It would seem to me to be a bit early to institute a review of contracts before the half-way point has been reached.

antoinolachtnai · 09-11-2011 12:13pm

Sure, but the original impression was that it was already decided that licenses will go out to tender. I don't mean to make an issue of it with Alek, but you are making an issue of it, so here are the quotes:

The reality in all of this is that competitive tendering for Public Road Transport Services is already here with the assumption into power of the NTA.

ixflyer wrote:

As Alek points out both DB and BE have PSO contracts for their services until 2014. At that point they may well lose/gain services depending on the review and tendering process.

I weighed in because the impression was going abroad that these were statements of facts, i.e, that there was definitely going to be a tendering process in 2014; and that the CTTC was calling for something that was definitely going to happen anyway.

This is untrue, and I said so. These things are not at all certain to happen. In my view, if things continue as they are presently, they will not happen.

Alek clarified his remarks to say that this is what he thinks will happen, rather than something that he knows for certain will happen. We have a difference in opinion about what will happen, and that is fine with me. It is difficult to make predictions, especially about the future.

The reason why I would suggest to review now is that if a decision were to be made to go to tender, it would take at least three years to make the preparations and carry out the tendering process. That would take us up to 2015.

It is fine talking about there being a big stick, but in practice, it takes a long time to wield. Otherwise you just hurt the traveling public even more. (Under the Annex of Directive 1370/2007, Dublin Bus can bill all its costs for any unilateral change back to the NTA, with a margin, so the NTA and the taxpayer ends up getting punished, rather than DB)

AlekSmart · 09-11-2011 9:07pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Alek clarified his remarks to say that this is what he thinks will happen, rather than something that he knows for certain will happen. We have a difference in opinion about what will happen, and that is fine with me. It is difficult to make predictions, especially about the future.

The reason why I would suggest to review now is that if a decision were to be made to go to tender, it would take at least three years to make the preparations and carry out the tendering process. That would take us up to 2015.

It is fine talking about there being a big stick, but in practice, it takes a long time to wield. Otherwise you just hurt the traveling public even more. (Under the Annex of Directive 1370/2007, Dublin Bus can bill all its costs for any unilateral change back to the NTA, with a margin, so the NTA and the taxpayer ends up getting punished, rather than DB)

I think that with signed Contracts in place between the NTA and the CIE Group companies it would be extremely unlikely that the NTA could realistically repudiate any of them unless it could be proven that the companies concerned were significantly in breach of them.

Getting involved in breach of commercial contract actions is not something for the faint hearted or unsound of wallet and with a scheduled review in 2 years I would doubt that the NTA will be at all disposed towards risking it.

However.....I continue to be somewhat concerned at some recurring issues which remain in relation to BAC's Network Direct programme...FWIW,the level of public unease and lack of clarity relating to ongoing changes could,I feel,allow scope for a seeking that earlier public review ?

antoinolachtnai · 09-11-2011 9:56pm

Breach of contract has nothing to do with it. NTA effectively cannot breach the contract, since they are allowed to unilaterally change the contract any time they wish. Having a review doesn't breach the contract or require it to be changed in any way. As far as I can remember, the contract makes no mention of a review.

My point is that if the NTA were to wish to put routes out to tender in 2014/2015, it would have to begin making decisions about this now. The lead times are very long. (As you have pointed out, there is a lot to these public service contracts, you don't just hire a few lads to drive buses. The current public service contract, which is vague in the extreme and is based on the earlier MoUs, took at least a year and a lot of man-hours to put together.)

If there is really such a level of public unease, then surely that would be a good enough reason for an early review? (You talk to a lot more DB passengers in a day than I do, so I am willing to take your word that this is the case.) The NTA can review anytime, at their discretion. Although they cannot necessarily award a DB contract to anybody else without a change in the law.

AlekSmart · 09-11-2011 10:04pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If there is really such a level of public unease, then surely that would be a good enough reason for an early review? (You talk to a lot more DB passengers in a day than I do, so I am willing to take your word that this is the case.)

I'm not sure "Public Unease" would describe it accurately,but there is a significant level of disappointment at how a significant amount of ND's proposed improvements have not proven to be so at all.

However,there is sod all appreciation or concern amongst the general public at the regulatory situation re the NTA and Dublin Bus.....all these people want is their bus to turn up.

n97 mini · 09-11-2011 10:11pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If you think the NTA should hold a review now, you should write to your TD and tell them what you think.

I have been on to a local representative about a timetabling issue in the area and they have been very good in following it up with DB and IE, so I will pursue this aswell.

CIE · 10-11-2011 12:12am

NTA effectively cannot breach the contract, since they are allowed to unilaterally change the contract any time they wish

When one side can alter the terms of an agreement at its own whims, that's not a contract.

antoinolachtnai · 10-11-2011 9:01am

CIE wrote: »

NTA effectively cannot breach the contract, since they are allowed to unilaterally change the contract any time they wish

When one side can alter the terms of an agreement at its own whims, that's not a contract.

I don't write the rules, I am just telling you what they say.

Mind you, the NTA cannot contract out DB routes to another operator without a change in the law. DB have exclusive rights.

AlekSmart · 10-11-2011 8:40pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I don't write the rules, I am just telling you what they say.

Mind you, the NTA cannot contract out DB routes to another operator without a change in the law. DB have exclusive rights.

My interpretation is that only holds true in totality,until 2014.

If after the 2013 Review it can be shown that Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann have not adhered to the stipulations of their contracts then what do you think will occur...?

If the Status Quo is copperfastened,as Antoin appears confident of,then the entire Regulatory System which encompasses the NTA is nothing more than a facade...all wind and peee....?

State 'can save €80m' by tendering for PSO bus services

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