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Motorway spending

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  • 01-03-2014 12:58am
    #1
    Copyerselveson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭


    Simple question, how much money was spent on motorways and toll deals in the last ten years?


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    #2
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    from a North Cork perspective, not enough


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    #3
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,287 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    About €8 billion.


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    #4
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    circa €8bn would be an accurate figure. You might wonder why not even half that figure was spent improving the railways


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    #5
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    because many more people use the roads?


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    #6
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    corktina wrote: »
    because many more people use the roads?

    many more people use the roads because the roads offer better service. It could easily be the other way round if there was investment.


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    #7
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    no it couldn't because rail doesn't go everywhere in the same way as the roads do. Every single one of use the roads and rely on them for goods delivery to shops etc. Rail and road are not interchangeable.


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    #8
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    cgcsb wrote: »
    circa €8bn would be an accurate figure. You might wonder why not even half that figure was spent improving the railways

    Govt spent about 100 million on the line from Galway to Limerick.
    It's slower, dearer, and more less services than the coaches serving the same route.

    It also has so few passengers, that it would actually be cheaper to taxi them instead of take the train.


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    #9
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Govt spent about 100 million on the line from Galway to Limerick.
    It's slower, dearer, and more less services than the coaches serving the same route.

    It also has so few passengers, that it would actually be cheaper to taxi them instead of take the train.

    Is that your own original observation and research or something that some feller told you?

    I doubt for example that anyone took what they overheard in the school playground as definitive sex-ed. Likewise never base an argument on hearsay.


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    #10
    davidlacey
    Registered Users Posts: 416 ✭✭davidlacey


    The amount spent on motorways is ridiculous compared to railways. But, what the funding was spent on in irish rail is also ridiculous. Instead of improving the service, we have new rolling stock which is slow and unreilable which is no fault of the rolling stock but the system. Just look at the darts for example the original rolling stock(8100S) are the most flexible and is still very reliable( 2,4,6,8 car formations available). It has outlasted the failed 8200s which were only built in 1999. The same can be said for the mark 3s, a simple refit could have upgraded them to modern standards as seen on the 8100s but instead we leave them to rot and get the mark ivs and 22000s. the money should have been spent on the constant congestion issues in connolly, double tracking waterford, galway, sligo etc... improving major commuter routes such as maynooth line. the track was relayed to improve safety but no consideration to journey times was proactively made, under 2 hours to cork is a must but is still not being achieved after all the monies spent and then the WRC but no point getting into that.


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    #11
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Banjoxed wrote: »
    Is that your own original observation and research or something that some feller told you?

    I doubt for example that anyone took what they overheard in the school playground as definitive sex-ed. Likewise never base an argument on hearsay.

    check it out for yourself, many people have.


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    #12
    n0brain3r
    Registered Users Posts: 919 ✭✭✭n0brain3r


    Minister said so himself and given the average train carries 8 passengers even if all where paying it would be cheaper to put them on a mini bus


    http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10257655/


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    #13
    Copyerselveson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Copyerselveson


    @Carawaystick et al

    I'd like to know what is being spent on PPP deals on motorways. Does anyone have any stats on that? A lot more than 100 million euro.


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    #14
    davidlacey
    Registered Users Posts: 416 ✭✭davidlacey


    That very said minister would be better off sitting down with IE and sorting out that issue instead of making remarks like that. Attractive prices, decent rolling stock and improved times would help. He looks like a very anti-rail transport minister who rathers everyone on buses without trying to solve the IE mess, plus the minister may say one thing but it may be beyond the truth just because he says there are 8 people on a service means nothing, when have politicians ever been trustworthy. IE probably want the line axed, a few adjustments to figures could easily be done...


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    #15
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    n0brain3r wrote: »
    Minister said so himself and given the average train carries 8 passengers even if all where paying it would be cheaper to put them on a mini bus


    http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10257655/

    But that isn't a source. It's an assertion pulled out of someone's ass.


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    #16
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    Copyerselveson wrote: »
    @Carawaystick et al

    I'd like to know what is being spent on PPP deals on motorways. Does anyone have any stats on that? A lot more than 100 million euro.

    Don't forget the shadow tolls on the M3, which the Right have conveniently forgotten about.


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    #17
    Copyerselveson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Copyerselveson


    I'm struggling to understand why the WRC spend is being rehashed in this thread. I'm trying to understand motorway spends and lots of posters are saying "yeah, what about the WRC?". The WRC isn't a motorway!


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    #18
    Copyerselveson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Copyerselveson


    Banjoxed wrote: »
    Don't forget the shadow tolls on the M3, which the Right have conveniently forgotten about.

    Tell me more about the shadow tolls.


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    #19
    davidlacey
    Registered Users Posts: 416 ✭✭davidlacey


    The WRC is a poor decision but agree has nothing to do with motorways, alot of special interest groups such as truckers are powerful and obviously roads have priority in this land, always have always will...


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    #20
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    Copyerselveson wrote: »
    Tell me more about the shadow tolls.

    There is a lovely juicy story here about the taxpayer shelling out €547,000 to the operator over a few months in 2011.

    http://newsandsport.ie/leads/read/items/taxpayers-foot-500k-for-m3s-traffic-shortfall?page=31


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    #21
    davidlacey
    Registered Users Posts: 416 ✭✭davidlacey


    according to a 2004 NRA report....

    Funding of the NRA is primarily in the form of grants from the Minister for Transport
    for the improvement and maintenance of national roads and a grant to cover the
    Authority’s administrative expenses. 2004 sees the start of a multi – annual funding
    arrangement. This arrangement, secured from Government by the Minister of Transport,
    will see €8 billion, including in excess of €1 billion from private sources, invested in
    upgrading the network of national roads over the period 2004 – 2008.

    The Authority has been set the target of securing investment of €1.27 billion in respect
    of Public Private Partnership projects over the period 2000-2006 to boost the funding
    available from the Exchequer and accelerate the pace at which national roads are
    improved.

    The NRA has statutory power to borrow money (not to exceed €635million), subject to
    the consent of the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Transport.

    this was only over a 4 year period!!!


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    #22
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    Copyerselveson wrote: »
    Tell me more about the shadow tolls.

    Here is a really meaty contribution by Catherine Murphy TD on the subject.

    http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2014-02-20a.555


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    #23
    Copyerselveson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Copyerselveson


    As Miley on Glenroe would say, Well Holy God!
    In effect, the NRA guaranteed the vehicle numbers on the motorway but when they did not materialise up to €30 million of taxpayers’ money was paid to the developers of part of the road. For them it was a win-win-win situation.

    That is completely astonishing.


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    #24
    Copyerselveson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Copyerselveson


    The cost of introducing the free medical card for children under six was calculated at €37 million but when one sees the amount of money transferred from this State into the pockets of developers through shadow tolling one sees the opportunities lost. We must make sure that does not happen in future.

    Another astonishing quote from Deputy Murphy. She's on the ball I must say.


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    #25
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    Not a motorway, but this is an oldie but goldie. €44m was the price tag of the 1.2 km Dundrum Bypass.

    I take it that it wasn't actually made of gold.

    http://touch.boards.ie/thread/50770/1/#post454565


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    #26
    Copyerselveson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Copyerselveson


    €44 million on a 1.2 km bypass? Bet most of that went to a few well-fattened landowners...

    ChillTonic300.jpg


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    #27
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Copyerselveson wrote: »
    I'm struggling to understand why the WRC spend is being rehashed in this thread. I'm trying to understand motorway spends and lots of posters are saying "yeah, what about the WRC?". The WRC isn't a motorway!
    and they use the WRC as a stick to beat the railways with or a reason not to invest in them

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #28
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users Posts: 12,104 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    end of the road wrote: »
    and they use the WRC as a stick to beat the railways with or a reason not to invest in them

    You railway heads just dont get it! Roads are a far more useful and popular form of transport since the invention of the combustion engine. They deserve and need investment. IE got billions, but decided to invest in a safe, workable railway on their terms, that ultimately couldn't compete with the motorway network. The fault lies at the door of IE and the DOT.


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    #29
    Filibuster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 361 ✭✭Filibuster


    Grandeeod wrote: »
    You railway heads just dont get it! Roads are a far more useful and popular form of transport since the invention of the combustion engine. They deserve and need investment. IE got billions, but decided to invest in a safe, workable railway on their terms, that ultimately couldn't compete with the motorway network. The fault lies at the door of IE and the DOT.

    I wouldn't call the Irish Rail network safe, given the collapse of the Malahide bridge a couple of years ago. IE invested in wages and poor decisions, nothing else.


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    #30
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Copyerselveson wrote: »
    I'm struggling to understand why the WRC spend is being rehashed in this thread. I'm trying to understand motorway spends and lots of posters are saying "yeah, what about the WRC?". The WRC isn't a motorway!

    Because posters brought up the subject of road vs rail.

    We might move that conversation to another thread if it becomes prolonged and clearly separated from the topic at hand, but for not such is fine here.

    I will however remind posters that there's two WRC thread for general debate about the route and to please stick closely to costs and rail vs road here.

    - mod


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    #31
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Grandeeod wrote: »
    You railway heads just dont get it!
    get what
    Grandeeod wrote: »
    Roads are a far more useful and popular form of transport
    and? nobody said otherwise, the problem is the governments policy of favouring roads over everything else rather then having all work together, rail can be useful but its up to the relevant people to allow it to be for those that want to use it.
    Grandeeod wrote: »
    They deserve and need investment.
    so does rail, the problem isn't road investment, its the idea from some that roads and roads should only get investment at the expence of everything else which should be left to rot or be destroyed to benefit said people (todd andrews and marples) who had a vested interest in roads, beaching probably had such a vested interest to

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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