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correcting your muscle firing sequence

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  • 03-02-2016 11:02am
    #1
    hillsiderunner
    Registered Users Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭


    Does anyone know anything about exercises to correct your muscle firing sequence of legs/gluts etc? I've done a search on Google but there's not a lot online.

    I had a massage about a month ago and at the end the therapist checked my muscle firing seqence of gluts/hamstrings etc, and said they weren't firing in the right order. He showed me some quite simple stepping exercises I could do (a lot) to fix this problem he says. Have been looking for more details online to read about it (and make sure I get the details of the stepping right) but no success.


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    #2
    Myles Splitz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭Myles Splitz


    A thread from a while back regarding the matter might be of some interest.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057361980


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    #3
    hillsiderunner
    Registered Users Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭hillsiderunner


    Myles Splitz wrote: »
    A thread from a while back regarding the matter might be of some interest.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057361980

    Thanks. Some good points there.

    It is definitely true that my gluts are weak (as you yourself noticed in the past!) and I have a strengthening program which I have been doing on-and-off (time and injury permitting) and will continue. Will consider the superman as a possible addition, we do these sometimes in Pilates anyhow.

    This guy was of the opinion that independent strengthening was not enough, and that I needed to work to change my pattern of moving, hence the movement exercises. It was those that I struggled to find online ... I wonder would there be any overlap with "chi running"?


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    #4
    Myles Splitz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭Myles Splitz


    hillsiderunner wrote: »
    Thanks. Some good points there.

    It is definitely true that my gluts are weak (as you yourself noticed in the past!) and I have a strengthening program which I have been doing on-and-off (time and injury permitting) and will continue. Will consider the superman as a possible addition, we do these sometimes in Pilates anyhow.

    This guy was of the opinion that independent strengthening was not enough, and that I needed to work to change my pattern of moving, hence the movement exercises. It was those that I struggled to find online ... I wonder would there be any overlap with "chi running"?

    While independent strengthening will not sort the issue if there is a firing issue then the movement will not fully correct the issue as compound movements will lend themselves to the dominant muscles taking over (low back and hamstrings taking on additional load. Personally I would look to the following as a laid out progression

    1 - isometric contractions of the glute muscles will allow to fire without dominant synergistic muscles taking over

    2 - Hip flexor flexibility - lunges and yoga warrior pose can be great for this as well as working on developmental strength (longer static stretches 3-4 x 8-12s second holds independent of your normal training) By allowing the flexors to be inhibited a bit you can help restore some more contractile force of the glutes (from a neuromuscular perspective)

    3 - Movement patterns

    Supermans and Runners touch exercises can be great for focusing on correct muscle recruitment patterns as well as other drills

    Chi running may include a number of these but I don't have enough experience with it to say definitively.


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    #5
    hillsiderunner
    Registered Users Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭hillsiderunner


    Have pinned it down now I think (searched on the blog the therapist writes, I should have thought of that before :rolleyes: ...). The movement exercises I got will probably come from the "Dynamic Movement Skills" School of thought:
    http://www.runningschool.co.uk/dynamic-movement-skills/about-us/

    Anyone have any views on this? Independently, or just whether movement-training is needed on top of strengthening when retraining muscle firing?

    (have read the old boards threads on Chi Running and know that many people found this helpful in reducing injury)


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    #6
    hillsiderunner
    Registered Users Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭hillsiderunner


    Myles Splitz wrote: »
    While independent strengthening will not sort the issue if there is a firing issue then the movement will not fully correct the issue as compound movements will lend themselves to the dominant muscles taking over (low back and hamstrings taking on additional load. Personally I would look to the following as a laid out progression

    1 - isometric contractions of the glute muscles will allow to fire without dominant synergistic muscles taking over

    2 - Hip flexor flexibility - lunges and yoga warrior pose can be great for this as well as working on developmental strength (longer static stretches 3-4 x 8-12s second holds independent of your normal training) By allowing the flexors to be inhibited a bit you can help restore some more contractile force of the glutes (from a neuromuscular perspective)

    3 - Movement patterns

    Supermans and Runners touch exercises can be great for focusing on correct muscle recruitment patterns as well as other drills

    Thanks for the reply MS. So strengthening comes first.
    The runners touch seems quite like deadlift which I know are recommended for glut strengthening. I guess Supermans would be the first step wrt to contracting the gluts I guess. Will have a think about re-organising my strengthening exercises (I have sideline gluts work and lunge-dips already in there).

    (so funny to see "isometric" in your post, I know the word in another setting :) )


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    #7
    pconn062
    Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    hillsiderunner wrote: »
    Thanks. Some good points there.

    It is definitely true that my gluts are weak (as you yourself noticed in the past!) and I have a strengthening program which I have been doing on-and-off (time and injury permitting) and will continue. Will consider the superman as a possible addition, we do these sometimes in Pilates anyhow.

    This guy was of the opinion that independent strengthening was not enough, and that I needed to work to change my pattern of moving, hence the movement exercises. It was those that I struggled to find online ... I wonder would there be any overlap with "chi running"?

    Some good points there from Myles. I will just jump in here with one small point, if you are struggling with injuries and muscle imbalances (which is what weak glutes are), then you need to make strength training a priority, not something to fit in when you have time. I was like you, I struggled a lot with injuries and did a strength programme halfheartedly when I had some spare time. But since my last injury I totally changed my training philosophy, and now my S+C is as important as my running. I will miss a run if it means I can get my S+C done, as I know it will make me stronger and will (hopefully) mean I miss less time overall from injury in the long term.

    Regarding deadlifts, I have found them to be the best exercise for me for getting glutes stronger and working better. But they are quite an advanced exercise and I would concentrate on the stuff Myles suggested first. Also, if you are going to try deadlifts, start with a light weight (even just the bar) and make sure you get someone who knows what they're doing to show you the proper technique.


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    #8
    pconn062
    Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    Myles Splitz wrote: »
    2 - Hip flexor flexibility - lunges and yoga warrior pose can be great for this as well as working on developmental strength (longer static stretches 3-4 x 8-12s second holds independent of your normal training) By allowing the flexors to be inhibited a bit you can help restore some more contractile force of the glutes (from a neuromuscular perspective)

    Can I just ask what you mean by this L. You talk about hip flexor flexibility, and using the static holds. But then you mention allowing the hip flexors to be inhibited? Is stretching not more likely to make them less inhibited? (I'm probably missing something really obvious here!).


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    #9
    Chivito550
    Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    pconn062 wrote: »
    Some good points there from Myles. I will just jump in here with one small point, if you are struggling with injuries and muscle imbalances (which is what weak glutes are), then you need to make strength training a priority, not something to fit in when you have time. I was like you, I struggled a lot with injuries and did a strength programme halfheartedly when I had some spare time. But since my last injury I totally changed my training philosophy, and now my S+C is as important as my running. I will miss a run if it means I can get my S+C done, as I know it will make me stronger and will (hopefully) mean I miss less time overall from injury in the long term.

    My nagging at you on your log has paid off! :D


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    #10
    Myles Splitz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭Myles Splitz


    pconn062 wrote: »
    Can I just ask what you mean by this L. You talk about hip flexor flexibility, and using the static holds. But then you mention allowing the hip flexors to be inhibited? Is stretching not more likely to make them less inhibited? (I'm probably missing something really obvious here!).
    pconn062 wrote: »
    Can I just ask what you mean by this L. You talk about hip flexor flexibility, and using the static holds. But then you mention allowing the hip flexors to be inhibited? Is stretching not more likely to make them less inhibited? (I'm probably missing something really obvious here!).

    Sorry should clarify my point.

    By restoring full ROM of the hip flexors long term you will allow for a more neutral contraction between the antagonist muscles. Anterior pelvic tilt can be one of the prime causes for incorrect muscle firing sequencing (as opposed to weakness which is very rare in the glutes given the glute max is the largest muscle in the body)

    Simply put you want to lengthen the hip flexors to allow the glutes to be able to contract to full ROM, once they do, they will start workiing efficiently and in turn inhibit the quads/hips flexors to the point where you the hip flexors and hip extensors are working more neutrally.

    In order to correct the imbalance one muscle lengthen to allow the other to strengthen.


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    #11
    hillsiderunner
    Registered Users Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭hillsiderunner


    pconn062 wrote: »
    I will just jump in here with one small point, if you are struggling with injuries and muscle imbalances (which is what weak glutes are), then you need to make strength training a priority, not something to fit in when you have time. I was like you, I struggled a lot with injuries and did a strength programme halfheartedly when I had some spare time. But since my last injury I totally changed my training philosophy, and now my S+C is as important as my running. I will miss a run if it means I can get my S+C done, as I know it will make me stronger and will (hopefully) mean I miss less time overall from injury in the long term.

    Know this well. It's a mental battle & unfortunately when time is tight, often the mental resolve is gone too. When I mentioned injury, I meant that sometimes this will rule out some strengthening exercises (eg, in past couple of weeks, having calf problems, I was not inclined to challenge the calf with lunge-dips etc ... I didn't run either I should say). Have made some progress in the motivation/htfu the past months, and have a regular calf-raises/stretching routine going on, but yes, there is a definitely a way to go.
    Regarding deadlifts, I have found them to be the best exercise for me for getting glutes stronger and working better. But they are quite an advanced exercise and I would concentrate on the stuff Myles suggested first. Also, if you are going to try deadlifts, start with a light weight (even just the bar) and make sure you get someone who knows what they're doing to show you the proper technique.

    Yep, was thinking of Runners-touch rather than the full deadlifts. I'm only using bodyweight for the strengthening I've been doing so far, don't even own a bar! - to be honest, if I could get that to be and established part of my routine, that would be a good step forward ....


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    #12
    pconn062
    Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    My nagging at you on your log has paid off! :D

    I'm a slow learner!


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    #13
    Firedance
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,009 ✭✭✭Firedance


    Just on the chi running M I have done a course on this but also have the same issues as you, the chi running, while helpful in some cases (hills I find best) won't corerect those imbalances, as P said you need to prioritize your stenght routine to do that initially. You could still do a chi running course but I'd concentrate on you're weakness first.


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    #14
    hillsiderunner
    Registered Users Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭hillsiderunner


    Firedance wrote: »
    Just on the chi running M I have done a course on this but also have the same issues as you, the chi running, while helpful in some cases (hills I find best) won't corerect those imbalances, as P said you need to prioritize your stenght routine to do that initially. You could still do a chi running course but I'd concentrate on you're weakness first.

    Was mainly wondering if the stepping exercises he suggested was chi-running so I could read up about it; think now it's from a different School of thought (will see if I can track down a book) .. anyway, yep, it would seem that either way there is no escape from a bit of htfu on the strengthening.
    To be honest I was not trying to dodge that though ;)


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    #15
    Gavlor
    Registered Users Posts: 6,176 ✭✭✭Gavlor


    pconn062 wrote: »
    Some good points there from Myles. I will just jump in here with one small point, if you are struggling with injuries and muscle imbalances (which is what weak glutes are), then you need to make strength training a priority, not something to fit in when you have time. I was like you, I struggled a lot with injuries and did a strength programme halfheartedly when I had some spare time. But since my last injury I totally changed my training philosophy, and now my S+C is as important as my running. I will miss a run if it means I can get my S+C done, as I know it will make me stronger and will (hopefully) mean I miss less time overall from injury in the long term.

    Regarding deadlifts, I have found them to be the best exercise for me for getting glutes stronger and working better. But they are quite an advanced exercise and I would concentrate on the stuff Myles suggested first. Also, if you are going to try deadlifts, start with a light weight (even just the bar) and make sure you get someone who knows what they're doing to show you the proper technique.

    Could you give an example of an early session??

    It's hard to find a suitable range of runner specific s&c that deal predominantly with glutes.

    Some seem too basic while others require a scientific doctorate to decipher!


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    #16
    pconn062
    Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    Gavlor wrote: »
    Could you give an example of an early session??

    It's hard to find a suitable range of runner specific s&c that deal predominantly with glutes.

    Some seem too basic while others require a scientific doctorate to decipher!

    I am far from an expert, but if I was to pick three of four beginner exercises I would go with:

    Clamshells: Some people don't like these but if they are good enough for Jay Dicharry then they are good enough for me. These are really good for activating the glute med and TFL, which will help stabilise the hip. Just make sure you don't sink into the ground when on your side.

    Side-lying leg abduction: Also really good for working the hip stabilisers. Form is really important, keep the raised leg slightly behind the leg on the ground, and try and keep the heel slightly above the toes. This will help activate the correct muscles. You can add some resistance in with bands when this gets too easy.

    For the glute max, I would do the single leg bridge. Again as Myles says you need to make sure the correct muscles and firing in order to do these properly. While doing these, if you feel your back tighten up or your hamstring about to cramp then the wrong muscles are being used and you need to step back and follow what Myles said about the broken down superman movement.

    You could also try a single leg squat, I find these tricky and it's important to make sure the knee doesn't collapse inwards as you do these.

    If you get on OK with these and you have access to a gym then I would recommend a goblet squat, back squat and deadlift. Again form is key with all these exercises.


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    #17
    hillsiderunner
    Registered Users Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭hillsiderunner


    pconn062 wrote: »
    I am far from an expert, but if I was to pick three of four beginner exercises I would go with:

    Clamshells: Some people don't like these but if they are good enough for Jay Dicharry then they are good enough for me. These are really good for activating the glute med and TFL, which will help stabilise the hip. Just make sure you don't sink into the ground when on your side.

    Side-lying leg abduction: Also really good for working the hip stabilisers. Form is really important, keep the raised leg slightly behind the leg on the ground, and try and keep the heel slightly above the toes. This will help activate the correct muscles.

    For the glute max, I would do the single leg bridge. Again as Myles says you need to make sure the correct muscles and firing in order to do these properly. While doing these, if you feel your back tighten up or your hamstring about the cramp then the wrong muscles are being used and you need to step back and follow what Myles said about the broken down superman movement.

    You could also try a single leg squat, I find these tricky and it's important to make sure the knee doesn't collapse inwards as you do these.

    If you get on OK with these and you have access to a gym then I would recommend a goblet squat, back squat and deadlift. Again form is key with all these exercises.

    thanks for posting that, was waiting to see what you would post. In fact your starter set has quite a lot of overlaps with that set of exercises I should be doing more regularly.... (in fact will hit the floor this eve).


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    #18
    Gavlor
    Registered Users Posts: 6,176 ✭✭✭Gavlor


    pconn062 wrote: »
    I am far from an expert, but if I was to pick three of four beginner exercises I would go with:

    Clamshells: Some people don't like these but if they are good enough for Jay Dicharry then they are good enough for me. These are really good for activating the glute med and TFL, which will help stabilise the hip. Just make sure you don't sink into the ground when on your side.

    Side-lying leg abduction: Also really good for working the hip stabilisers. Form is really important, keep the raised leg slightly behind the leg on the ground, and try and keep the heel slightly above the toes. This will help activate the correct muscles. You can add some resistance in with bands when this gets too easy.

    For the glute max, I would do the single leg bridge. Again as Myles says you need to make sure the correct muscles and firing in order to do these properly. While doing these, if you feel your back tighten up or your hamstring about to cramp then the wrong muscles are being used and you need to step back and follow what Myles said about the broken down superman movement.

    You could also try a single leg squat, I find these tricky and it's important to make sure the knee doesn't collapse inwards as you do these.

    If you get on OK with these and you have access to a gym then I would recommend a goblet squat, back squat and deadlift. Again form is key with all these exercises.

    Super, thanks for that.

    I will now take your expert opinion and either sing your praises for my staying injury free or sue your ass for ruining my promising career.


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    #19
    pconn062
    Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    Gavlor wrote: »
    Super, thanks for that.

    I will now take your expert opinion and either sing your praises for my staying injury free or sue your ass for ruining my promising career.

    I've read your log, I think I'm safe enough! ;)

    I should add terms and conditions apply.


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