Driving in the middle lane

ironclaw wrote: »

Of course, but in your daily driving, are you reasonably expecting someone to be attempting to pass you, at a greater speed, on a motorway, on your left? No. Your not. Its convention to pass on the right. Granted we should all be observant, thats a given, but if presented with both cases I don't feel it would go in your favour. I'm not arguing who should have looked where and when. The fact is, if you pass on the left, your doing something that is not expected of a driver in Ireland.

Why did you pass Mr.'A' on the left side?

Because lane 2 or 3 was 'busy'

The greater of the two evils would be passing on the left. Granted Mr.'A' might get a slap for incorrect lane procedure but I would imagine a good deal of the blame will be handed to you because you conducted a manoeuvre outside what a reasonable person would do and should have done.

In every day driving I dont expect anything; I observe what is happening around me and drive accordingly. If I want to move into the left hand lane I will check what is coming up behind me, and if there is a car in the left hand lane that is travelling faster than I am I will wait until they have passed or until it safe to make my move. Anyone who doesnt do the same should not be behind the wheel of a car.

Just like when a traffic light turns green I dont just expect that its clear to go; I check first that nobody is running a red light (as they often do). Expectations/assumptions when driving is a quick way to get yourself killed.

The greater of two evils is not passing on the left; like I said, it would not be dangerous to pass on the left if people were able to observe properly, however improper observation is always going to be massively dangerous when driving. The person who changes lanes without observing if it is safe to do so is a menace on the road.

I'm fully with celticbest on this one. I drive the M50 most mornings, starting at Swords and exiting at the N3, N4, N7 or Ballymount or Tallaght or joining the M11 depending where in the country I'm working. I get into the left-most lane approaching the M1/M50 interchange and stay there to avoid all the bellends who boot down the outside then force their way into the right lane at the last minute. I continue into the left lane on the M50 and drive along at the same speed as everyone else in the lane. Meanwhile the Beemers and Audis that cut into the M50 lanes at the last minute are breaking the solid white line round the corner to make sure they get into the "fast" lane before anyone thinks they're poor or unimportant. At this point I usually take note of one of the cars (usually something like a gold 09 MH A6 or 520d) and use it as a marker. By the time I get to the N7 or wherever, If I can spot my original marker car, I reckon 80% of the time they are a long way behind me, despite their initial gains made between the Airport and Finglas.

I don't set out to "undertake" but I do drive calmly in the left hand lane and do find myself ahead of many cars that joined the M50 at the same point as me and don't see the problem. I refuse to drive at 60-70 kph just because lanes 2 and 3 are doing that speed and conventional overtaking on the right is not possible. The only way around this is to educate the drivers of Ireland but I would put big money on Gaybo and his RSA mates being middle lane drivers themselves and even if they weren't, rules and correct driving is just not important to the vast majority of Irish drivers.

ironclaw wrote: »

With respect djimi, I feel your just trying to justify undertaking. For example, with that attitude, don't ever go ski-ing. You have a responsibility to those down slope of you as you have the greater field of vision. Just like here, if you past on the left, you have the greater field of vision than a driver you are approaching from the rear and most likely in their blind spot. You are wilfully putting that person and yourself in danger. Its far easier for you to see the danger and they should reasonably assume that any decent driver is not going to do something as idiotic. Sitting or passing someone's blind spot on the wrong side is idiotic. Oppose this to passing on the right where a driver will expect you to be and the problem is completely removed.

I don't drive assuming no one will be on my left. I kinda pride myself on being observant, knowing each and every car I pass and that is ahead of me. But I consider it extremely poor driving to conduct a manoeuvre that a normal driver will not be expecting i.e. In traffic, I don't expect there to suddenly be a car barreling up my left hand side.

I'm saying this all in an Irish and UK context as its convention to pass on the right. Goes right out the window in some European countries and the US.

Again with the assumptions and expectations. A good driver does not expect anything. A bad driver is just as likely to cause an accident changing lanes to the right than they are to the left (I couldnt tell you how many times I have nearly been wiped out when overtaking a car because the driver didnt bother to look right before pulling into the overtaking lane); by this logic should we never overtake at all?

Im not condoning undertaking at all; Im simply saying that where an incident occurs due to undertaking it is the driver who changed lanes without looking that is far more at fault than the driver who was in the left hand lane. I dont care what any other car on the road is doing; observation is the single most important element of driving.

Wow, what a lofty equine.


I know that technically passing on the left in normal circumstances is wrong and I'm very aware of the law. I'm also aware of what I'm doing as well as other all other road users when driving but what I've described is the reality of driving on the M50 daily.

djimi wrote: »

Again with the assumptions and expectations. A good driver does not expect anything.

To quote Dunlop Tyres from the 90s I think, 'Expect the unexpected' and I agree with all your observation points djimi . But when I drive, there are certain things I assume i.e. At a roundabout, traffic is going to come from my right only. At traffic light, I assume if they are green that there is a low probability that someone is going to cut through a red into my path. Thats not saying I barrel through with no regard, yes I exercise extreme caution and observation. However, the driver doing the 'unexpected' is more than likely committing an illegal(And if not, stupid unconventional) act. I do not expect someone trying to make up a few seconds to cut up on my left. And thats what we're talking here, seconds. Your not going to save even 5 minutes by driving like Mad Max down the M50. Average speed saves times over exceptional distances.

And all this is coming from someone (myself) who has hours of DVR footage of anything from 3pm to 5am on the M50, going 1 to 3 and back to 1. Because its correct driving. We all give out about 'middle lane' hoggers but yet very few are prepared to drive properly. My hope is someone will see me going from 1 to 3 to 1 on an empty road and start a conversation with someone, who will hopefully say that being in the middle lane is wrong to that hogger. And someone is educated. I live in hope :pac:

But the longer people drive as they like and cut up the left, the longer this behaviour will continue because what good are lanes if the people who know how to use them don't. Basically by undertaking your misusing lanes, the very same as a middle lane hogger.

ironclaw wrote: »

At a roundabout, traffic is going to come from my right only. At traffic light, I assume if they are green that there is a low probability that someone is going to cut through a red into my path.

You obviously don't drive in Galway! :pac:

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Until the day you are pulled over and fined.

Yes, posters right here on this forum have been done for overtaking on the left.

As a matter of interest what was the sanction in these cases? In the second link it would seem to me that the Gardai were looking for any excuse to book the guy which might suggest they were not too anxious to book him only on the undertaking charge. Maybe its because they though they would look pretty stupid going to court and explaining were were hogging the right hand lane while not overtaking and the criminal had the audacity to undertake us so he could go about his normal business. They'd have been right.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Well, no, they wouldn't. Say it's you in court. The charge would be read out, and you'd be asked guilty or not guilty.

How exactly do you propose to defend yourself?

Question still stands what charges were brought in the linked cases? While I don't agree with the interpretation of the rule I would obviously be interested in reading about the sanctions previously applied by the Courts in these kind of cases.

At least then I would know definitively what the actual precedent is in these cases rather than trying to decide what interpretation of the current rule being debated on here is more correct. Having said that I know definitively that its ilegal to exceed 120kph on motorways .. do I exceed 120kph on motorways on occassion?

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Well, no, they wouldn't. Say it's you in court. The charge would be read out, and you'd be asked guilty or not guilty.

How exactly do you propose to defend yourself?

If it was me (and assuming I was stupid enough to defend myself instead of getting a solicitor), I'd say not guilty on the basis that I had joined the motorway at junction Y, and was driving in the driving lane for x kilometers at a steady, maintained speed, and had not been overtaken by the other car. I was not deliberately performing an overtaking maneuver. The car in the overtaking lane was driving slowly, and not overtaking, and not signalling any intention of returning to the driving lane. It would have been wreckless of me to brake to match his speed, fall in behind him, overtake, then move back across 2 lanes of traffic to the driving lane, as he was obviously distracted, and I didn't want to distract him further by weaving backwards and forwards across the road behind and in front of him.

I'd probably still get the book thrown at me, but that would be what I'd say.


What would the charge in court be anyway?

corktina wrote: »

Just how is it (w)reckless to carry out any of those manoeuvres (unless you did it recklessly by not using your mirror and signalling of course...)

Reckless on the basis that the other driver is obviously a moron and could do anything no matter what side you passed him on. There should be a no fly zone extending over his head, in case he suddenly becomes aware of the sky. Hopefully that would be conveyed by tone of voice.

Those manoeuvres in and of themselves aren't reckless (providing you're observing and signalling of course).

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The joke is that there's no enforcement of any rules, like the one telling that knob to keep left.

I haven't read through the bickering, but seeing as there is a certain amount of ambiguity surrounding the phrase 'slow moving traffic', I asked the RSA for clarification.

Question:
PaddyMcGrathIRL: @RSAIreland Q for you folks, can you elaborate on what is considered 'slow moving traffic' with regards to overtaking on the left? // This is with regard to those who drive in the middle lane of a three lane motorway primarily. // i.e. If car X is travelling at 90KM/H in lane 1, is it permissible to undertake car Y in lane 2 which is travelling at 80KM/H?

Answer:
RSAIreland: @PaddyMcGrathIRL It's not safe to pass a vehicle on the left hand side in the circumstance you have outlined. // See pg 52 of the Rules of the Road for possible safe examples http://t.co/LnE2V7lUIL // An example of slow moving traffic is queued traffic or when traffic lanes are stop starting.

I'm surprised that something as simple as that needed to be cleared up for some people, always thought it was obvious. For those who think they're being a safer driver by overtaking on the left, you're not. There's a reason it's illegal.

djimi wrote: »

Unfortunately the RSA's word is no more legally binding than any of the "bickering" on here, and the ROTR are just a laymans interpretation of the law (and often not a very good one...)

I would be interested to hear what an actual legal professional would have to say on the matter, preferably a judge who is ruling on such a case.

Surely at this stage a legal precedent would have been set already? There has to have been previous prosecutions for this offence but has anyone ever challenged it in court? Personally, I wouldn't fancy being the first.

LFCFan wrote: »

This example is of a single car in the middle lane. I think most people would agree than in this example it is best to move across lanes to 'over'take this car and then back to the driving lane. I think the big problem on our motorways is when there is a queue of traffic in the middle and overtaking lanes (or overtaking lane on a 2 lane road) and you are driving on the inside lane. In those cases there is nowhere to go to get past this traffic other than continuing to drive in the lane you are in, thus 'under'taking the queue of traffic. Either that or join the slower queue in the wrong lane or slow down to their speed in the lane you are in despite there being nothing in front of you.

I've asked again, but I know i'm going to get the same answer. They stated that 'slow moving traffic' means either queues or stop / start congestion. In my experience, 'queues' means stationary traffic, not a line of moving cars.

I'll update when I hear back from them.

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

There's a reason it's illegal.

Yes, but it's not the simplistic reason that "it's dangerous" to pass on the left. It's dangerous because no-one expects it because it's illegal.

The real reason it's illegal is what without a "keep left, pass right" rule, all lanes will move at the speed of the slowest driver, and you'll have to weave to make progress, which would be slower and more dangerous.

You can see it on the freeways in the states, where all lanes just cruise along at the same general speed. The difference there is that they all do it at 70 mph, here we'd be at 70 kph behind flat-cap man and the nun in her Micra.

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

I've asked again, but I know i'm going to get the same answer. They stated that 'slow moving traffic' means either queues or stop / start congestion. In my experience, 'queues' means stationary traffic, not a line of moving cars.

I'll update when I hear back from them.

The problem with the definition is that it is entirely possible to be in a queue of cars, where three lanes are all doing around 40mph! Its slow moving traffic by any interpretation of the meaning (Im sure that anyone who has ever driven in rush hour traffic knows exactly what I am referring to), but it is not stop start.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, but it's not the simplistic reason that "it's dangerous" to pass on the left. It's dangerous because no-one expects it because it's illegal.
.

Well said. It comes back to the fact that overtaking on the left is a risk and an easily avoidable one at that. We're all aware that the standard of driving in Ireland is beyond poor so it's up to the better drivers amongst us to prevent any accidents due to the incompetence around us.

creedp wrote: »

Which is the lessor of 2 evils .. maintaining one's course in the left or middle lane even if this involves undertaking slower moving traffic on your right or simply stay put in the right most lane and ignore all to your left?

Failing to drive on the left: 1 point
Dangerous overtaking: 3 points

Deborah Unsightly Professor wrote: »

I was recently pulled for undertaking on the N7. Garda said he would have booked me for dangerous overtaking if the guy in the overtaking lane hadn't been crawling along holding everyone up. At first I wanted to argue about it, but seeing as he wasn't taking any action on it I kept my mouth shut. I do think it is ridiculous for undertaking to be illegal.

This is exactly what is wrong with the police force in this country. Theyll pull you over for passing a slow moving car on the left, but I can guarantee that if a hundred cars get pulled over for passing that prat out, not once will he get pulled over for driving in the wrong lane.

The single most fundemental rule of driving in this country is that you drive on the left; this rule should be enforced before all others, period.