Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Philosophically speaking ...

Options
  • 28-06-2013 12:18am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 78,285 ✭✭✭✭


    "You can't do that - that's illegal" is a familiar refrain. However, sometimes the law doesn't always take nuances into accounts and a broad brush has been applied, sometimes making seemingly innocent things illegal, e.g. it is illegal for a 3 year old to cycle on the footpath (note image actually shows cyclepath).

    258506.JPG

    Philosophically speaking, why are things illegal? Sure, laws make things legal / illegal, but why are certain things make illegal, but others aren't.

    Good reasons for making things illegal would be that they are dangerous (explosive factory next to a hospital) or obnoxious ('singing' on the way home from the pub at 3am). Bad reasons to make things illegal would be so you could oppress people. sometimes, things need to be made illegal so that the law can be enforced, but hte principal action itself isn't problematic, e.g. it is forbidden to drive without the appropriate, tax, insurance and NCT disks.

    What other reasons are there?


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 934 ✭✭✭LowKeyReturn


    Victor wrote: »
    What other reasons are there?

    Side effect - e.g no one would have an issue with a 3 year old, properly supervised, riding a bike on a pavement. Lycra clad middle aged men on the other hand are dangerous.

    Public policy will alway involve some element of oppression.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    Victor wrote: »
    "You can't do that - that's illegal" is a familiar refrain. However, sometimes the law doesn't always take nuances into accounts and a broad brush has been applied, sometimes making seemingly innocent things illegal, e.g. it is illegal for a 3 year old to cycle on the footpath (note image actually shows cyclepath).

    258506.JPG

    Philosophically speaking, why are things illegal? Sure, laws make things legal / illegal, but why are certain things make illegal, but others aren't.

    Good reasons for making things illegal would be that they are dangerous (explosive factory next to a hospital) or obnoxious ('singing' on the way home from the pub at 3am). Bad reasons to make things illegal would be so you could oppress people. sometimes, things need to be made illegal so that the law can be enforced, but hte principal action itself isn't problematic, e.g. it is forbidden to drive without the appropriate, tax, insurance and NCT disks.

    What other reasons are there?


    How can it be illegal for a 3 year old to cycle on a footpath 3 is well below the age of criminal responsibility and the parent can not to the best of my knowledge be criminally liable for the illegal actions of their 3 year old in such case.

    But the law has always turned a blind eye to certain criminal activity as to prosecute would be an injustice in itself. An example in Ireland would have been homosexual acts between consenting adults I believe between 1922 and 1993 there was no prosecutions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    Side effect - e.g no one would have an issue with a 3 year old, properly supervised, riding a bike on a pavement. Lycra clad middle aged men on the other hand are dangerous.

    Public policy will alway involve some element of oppression.

    Is that at all times or only when cycling on a footpath.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭234


    One of the classic justifications for criminalising certain acts is Mill's Harm Principle. Within their personal sphere people should have autonomy, however once their acts affect others the state may become involved. Only those acts which harm others should be criminalised.

    However, there are obvious difficulties in that offences where the victim is an animal would not be covered. Certain kinds of drug-taking would not be covered where you couldn't cast the issue in terms of damage to those immediately close to you.

    The idea of harm can also be scaled up to ridiculous levels e.g. something is harmful to society generally; possibly incorporating the idea of moral harm which really undermined the effectiveness of the principle. However, restricting the issue to physical harm to immediate others would exclude things such as financial crime.

    It's an intuitively appealing concept but of little analytic utility.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 934 ✭✭✭LowKeyReturn


    infosys wrote: »
    Is that at all times or only when cycling on a footpath.

    I think that participle was a dangling subconsciously.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Victor wrote: »
    Philosophically speaking, why are things illegal? Sure, laws make things legal / illegal, but why are certain things make illegal, but others aren't.


    What other reasons are there?

    Well there's the laws of protectionism, where certain industries are supported in spite of supposed free trade laws, for example where a person can buy a car anywhere in the eu, if they buy it when it was first sold outside the eu, a harsher regime of nct applies, to the benefit of the people who sell new cars in Ireland.

    Or the restrictions applied to people with qualifications earned abroad, such as pharmacies, where a person who qualified abroad can dispense drugs and if they made a mistake a person could die, but they can't own a pharmacy for a certain time after qualification, unlike a person who qualified in Ireland.



    Moving onto laziness, with a little protectionism

    The failure to enact laws to apply the 7th amendment

    It took a long while to make it legal to use red led lights on the back of push bikes.

    \flamebait{or repeal sections of certain acts from 1861}

    Or update laws from the 19th century.
    Or even the 15th century (Piracy Act 1612 retained during the recent repeal of old laws)

    Then you have social conservatism laws such as the restriction on sales of condoms, or prohibition of gay sex, or the sexual discrimination in the age of consent between girls and boys, or distilling spirits at home, or publicans having to have a license to have a pub, while for the vast majority of this state, the Oireachtas bar was unlicensed.

    The social conservatism laws could be expanded to prevent other people having fun, so you have restrictions on people having sex, or taking drugs, or other activities where no harm comes to the participants or third parties, but won't somebody think of the children.
    I accept that the drugs trade has some very nasty people involved in it. But a person growing their own cannabis sativa plant, from seeds harvested from either the wild or with a peaceful history, has harmed no-one and is a different kettle of fish from buying from a killing tainted supply chain.


    Then you have (bye)laws like in Howth Harbour, where instead of preventing or dealing with oil spills, they ban the feeding of seals, as the seal's eyes were getting damaged from the oil


    Then you have the reluctance to legislate for things that are wrong, but are not clearly illegal, such as the behaviour recorded some years back in the finance industry here.
    Or making it such that if you make a false affidavit alleging some political rival runs a brothel, you cannot escape by forgetting such details until the political rival produces the tape of you saying it.


    Then there is the case of laws made in the face of logic or reason (Won't some one Please think of the Children)
    Magic Mushrooms were banned here after one person killed himself, having taken a fair amount of drink, an amount of cannabis, and a small amount of magic mushrooms. Alcohol is a major part of a lot of suicides, yet is never banned because of it. A study in the Netherlands found Psyllicybin to have negligible harmful effects, but it is blamed for a death here and banned.

    Or the law that makes children under a certain height and age use a booster seat, but short adults don't have to use one. If it's unsafe for children shorter than some limit to not use a booster seat, surely it's unsafe for children > 12 or adults to sit there unboostered.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    That helmet doesn't look like it conforms to BS13234(a)subsection 23(i) and could cause some serious injuries if she suddenly 'pops a wheelie' and the rear tyre appears to have less than the minimum required tread depth, and two members of the Gardai who've looked at this photo with me have formed the opinion that she's speeding.
    I hope the judge throws the book at her, maniacs like this shouldn't be on the streets...


Advertisement