Management company

Lisa Brown wrote: »

Ah, Ok, thanks. How can I transfer the query to Accomodation and Property thread?

A moderator can move it if you send them a private message (their names are listed at the bottom right of the main forum page) or if you "report" your original post and explain why you did so (the little red triangle icon is the button for that).

If it was me, I'd just retype and/or cut and paste into a new thread on the Acommodation and Property forum...

Lisa Brown wrote: »

I need a piece of advice.

After a year fitghing with company managment, in AGM 2011 management company agreed to repair balcony of the apartment above mine as it leaks to my sitting room. Their balcony is my roof.

However, now they are saying that the repairs is 50:50 with the managment company paying half and the owner of the apartment below the other half.

- Can they do that? They agreed in the AGM
- The leaks are originating upstairs, why does the owner downstair have to pay?

Generally the external elements are the responsibility of the management company. That includes the roof, walls and structural elements like the floors, sub floors an areas like the balcony which in this case form a roof.

You should get a copy of your lease document out (from your solicitor) which will identify what is owned by the company (the reserved premises) and what is yours (the demised premises.)

Typically you own the internal layer of plasterboard inside your apartment plus a right of access to it and any balcony you may have. The provision of services is based on your service fee payment. So wthholding it or going into arrears gives the company automatic right to withold services or repairs.

As you are not the owner of the balcnony then you should not be expected to pay in any way whatsoever.

The only payment you are legally required to make is the service fee once a year which should have all repairs and allowances for building repairs built in.

However, that said, many companies are financially strapped either through bad management or because the developer has been running things (badly) and there just isn't any sinking fund or available cash especially if members are withholding service fee payments.

If it was agreed in 2011 (and you have the minutes to back this up I presume?) then they should of been able to get the money together by now.

What do you mean "historically" the cost has always been 50:50. Did you or a previous owner at some point agree to split the costs 50:50? Or from the last paragraph in your post, is this something which has affected a number of properties and not just yours?

As mentioned above, there are two components to this - the structural stuff which involves fixing your roof and repairing the leak, should be covered by the sinking fund, and the internal stuff, plastering, etc, which has to be paid by you or your contents insurer.

A solicitor who knows property law is probably your best bet, if even just to give you an indication of how to proceed.

You should be able to go after the builder/developer for the problem, if it was caused by defective construction.

As for taking a case against the management company, don't forget that YOU are a member of the management company and would be liable for part of the costs of any case you may win.

If I was you, I'd get the management company, via the management agent, to go after the builder/developer.

Strictly speaking, the balcony is the not the issue, the roof is. The owner of the balcony is not experiencing any issue with their balcony. You are experiencing a problem with your roof.

The reality is though that the structure belongs to the management company, not to you or the owner of the apartment upstairs. So the problem is the management company's.

As a member of the management company, that makes it your problem by proxy but that doesn't mean you have to pay for it. Like I say it should be covered by the sinking fund, but this is an issue with a history so you will need a qualified professional to assist you with it. It won't be possible to get specific help on boards.

You mentioned costs and that this was a problem affecting virtually all of the balcony's?? Cost per balcony around 3k to remedy.

Bear in mind that the ONLY money the company has is what is received through service fee payments. Essentially IF say every balcony needed to be repaired and the cost was 3k then every member would need to stump up 3k if they all had balconies and the company would do the repairs.

Obviously there should be a sinking fund to deal with this to avoid such large up front payments and it goes without saying that the cost of dealing with substandard buildings will be something we will be dealing with throughout our lifetimes.

In your case the company has not budgeted to have every balcony repaired at a cost of 3k (and why should it of done!) and so there is a cash flow problem. Like any OMC there will be members who cannot or choose not to pay service fee's which will make the problem worse for everyone unless the matter is being tackled hard.

That doesn't help you if your neighbour isn't paying but it does highlight the entire picture somewhat.

In relation to insurance you will find that building defects are not covered so issues like this unless you can show they were by fire, storm or other damage as per the policy then a claim will be out of the question. That said consequential loss IS covered which is the damage caused to a third party, in this case the unit owner. As you say the excess is 3k so your apartment would need to be essentially destroyed as you will only receive money beyond 3k. i.e. if the damage is 3500 then you would receive a cheque for 500 euro. As it is the unit owner making the claim there is no responsibility for the OMC to provide or make up the excess. Some cash rich companies do, of course if they can do that they can just as easil get it repaired.

50/50 in this case doesn't sound unreasonable in order for you to get the repair dealt with in a timely manner. As others have said if you try to legally enforce it you will incur legal costs and all the costs incurred by the OMC will also be incurred by the unit owners as unit owners fund the company in every way. If the company has no money they wont be able to pay you anyway. Suing a company you are a member of isn't a reasonable course of action as effectively you are in part suing yourself and will end up paying at both ends.

Issues like this can make or break a company and its directors who remember will work for nothing and as volunteers. Agents representing them will be salaried though (its not clear if there is an agent in this case.)

Take a look at the last accounts posted on CRO or if you have a copy and see what the debtors total is. That is money owed to the company through non payment of service fee's. You may be quite surprised as to its amount.

I may be inclined just to accept the 50/50 deal and be thankful that the OMC has some money and is willing to meet you half way.

The short to medium term easy answer is just to add a few thousand onto EVERY service fee bill for say 3 to 5 years to cope with this problem. There is a reason why the directors have chosen not to do this because invariably everyone would freak out and stop paying. It would be counterproductive.

I totally sympathise with your issue though.

Like a lot of things residents pay very little interest in management companies until its too late. There needs to be a huge uplift in the education and knowledge of residents living in a managed development so they fully understand the implications of what the company and they are responsible for. I am generally shocked (not at you) at how little apartment owners in particular understand or are even bothered about one of the single most important purchases they will make in their lives.

edit: The cost of getting a roof re-felted runs at roughly €100 per sq meter as a rough guide based on most balcony's being around 12 m.sq. On top of that you will need to resurfce it with whatever it deemed best so either deck or tiles. In that regard 3k sounds about right assuming its a small balcony. If you have a much larger area its a better deal. The company may have struck a deal with a roofer as several of the balconies will need doing.

Lisa Brown wrote: »

I don't really agree. I do pay the service fees and it shouldn't matter whether other people pay. I should be covered.

I know that there is a sinking fund, I don't know what is the amount of it, but there is one. The mgt company should repair the balconies in all of those apartments where the service fees are paid in full, and ignore the ones where the owners are not paying.

Your right that the company should pay. The reality is CAN they pay. Each members service fee represents a portion of a whole. Any non payment afects that. Directors then have to choose which services must be ceased or not undertaken for that year.

OMC's will rarely if ever ever be able to avail of credit or a loan in any format. Its a very dangerous road anyway even IF they could because it incurs interest costs and any futher slip in service fee payments could resut in the company failing repayments and going to court which is bad news for the company and its members.

Again the accounts should detail the sinking fund surplus so you can see what it was at year end, you can also request to know what the amount is currently in the account. It's €3.50 I think off the cro web site to get a pdf instantly.

The lease will clearly state that the company can refuse any provision of service to those who haven't paid and they should enforce this. However, if your service fee is say 1k per year and 10% of that is sinking fund then thats just €100 per year put to one side for the upkeep and future repair of the entire block which may include the main roof, walls, lifts, water tanks, gates etc. Obvisouly you would of needed to make 30 years of payments to of contributed 3k which is the cost of your balcony. The reality is that everyone elses money will go towards fixing the common roof/balcony over your apartment.

So again the ONLY money the company has is that which is paid its members. Its sad to see any member like yourself suffer because of non payment by others and its very unfair. But no company cannot magic money out of the air regardless of the seriousness of the issue.

Lisa Brown wrote: »

I think as well we are making a differentiation between a roof of the 3 bed duplex and the one of a 2 bed (mine). Theirs is considered a roof (so repaired and maintained by the mgt company) and mine is considered as a balcony.

You see, the balcony doesn't have a problem. People upstairs can use their balcony. My roof is the problem. My roof is leaking. However, the leak is originated from upstairs but the owner upstairs is not responsible.

Imagine you are living in an apartment and the upstairs washing machine leaks. Who pays for the repairs? Why should be different in this case?

Its still a roof and a common area and the company's responsibility. The issue of a washining machine is slightly different because the cause is from within a unit.

Again I'd urge you to sit down with the company and work towards a result as quickly as you can. You could easily frit away €500 or much more on legal advice and basic court costs only to be told that the companys 50/50 proposal is very reasonable becasue they have no money. OR, to be told that you won but, that the company has no money and that the company must address it when they can which will be say in another year because they just had to spend €500+ on legal fees which could of gone towards your roof.

Ultimatley there may be a problem with the overall management of the block or development you are in. The directors may not be tackling service fee debt as hard as they should, may not be getting best value for services, may be using an ineffective agent that charges to much.

Their are developments that have accrued 50k+ sinking funds just for a few trees and bushes (which is outrageous!) so it can be done. Medium to long term if you plan on staying where you are you may want to consider taking more involvement in your company and see where you can develop solutions to ensure these problems can be avoided.

Best of luck in getting your issue resolved and please let us know how it goes if you can.

Lisa Brown wrote: »

hi. so i have received an email asking for a further update. not good news, i am afraid.
after three years of negotiation i got the balcony above my apartment (my roof) repaired. the management company stopped asking me money so everything was fine. however the "repaired" leak lasted for a year and now i am in square one.

Sounds like you need professional advice - a solicitor and a professional builder/plumber who can identify the cause of the water/leak.