Dublin city centre to have 30kph speed limit from Jan 31 2010

RATM · 06-10-2009 12:24pm #1

I can understand this in highly pedestrianised areas but covering the city all the way out to Dorset Street? Seems a bit excessive IMO.

Full Story http://www.independent.ie/national-news/capital-on-go-slow-as-30kmh-speed-limit-is-agreed-1904974.html

LIFE is about to get even slower for motorists in Dublin city centre.

The capital is to become a 'go-slow' zone from the New Year after local councillors voted in favour of an overall speed limit of 30kmh.

From January 31, drivers will have to limit their speeds when travelling from St Stephen's Green to the middle of Dorset Street and from Merrion Square to Church Street. The new limit has been introduced in an attempt to cut the number of road deaths in the capital.

It is the latest traffic restriction on motorists following the introduction of the 'Bus Gate' on College Green, which limits where private cars can travel during peak hours.

Last night, Dublin city councillors voted overwhelmingly in favour of the restrictions. Large patches of the city centre, including areas around Grafton Street and the ILAC centre, already have the limits in place.

However, a change in the law meant that national roads can have the speed limit reduced.

As a result, the proposals to reduce the limit from 50kmh to 30kmh for the quays, O'Connell Street, College Green and around Christchurch were introduced. Labour councillor Andrew Montague, who proposed the motion, said the limit would be at the core of where pedestrian traffic is. Similar limits are in place around Europe, he said.

murphaph · 06-10-2009 1:00pm

They're not in place here, only quiet side streets have 30 limits in Berlin. All thoroughfare streets are 50 or 60 and the urban motorways are (mostly) 80.

That's a large area for a blanket 30 limit I would say and anyway, the guards will hardly bother enforcing it as usual.

munchkin_utd · 06-10-2009 2:12pm

indeed. In Germany city traffic is 50kmh, unless marked otherwise, and only side streets have the 30kmh limits.
So essentially city centre through routes like the ones to be altered in Dublin are 50kmh.

One thing that Germany (and other parts of the continent) does NOT have is a complete widespread disregard by pedestrians for pedestrian signals especially on busy WIDE streets where the traffic is moving quickly.

If people are essentially going to jump out in front of moving cars randomly in Dublin city centre then it sort of makes sense that the traffic that is liable to hit them should go slower to avoid the death of the pedestrian. Hitting one of the 100's of thousands of Dublin jaywalkers at 30kmh is much much less likely to kill them than at 50kmh.

But they shouldn't claim that the law has precedent in Europe. Nowhere in Europe has pedestrians strolling round busy thoroughfares amongst the traffic like in ireland so they dont have 30 limits on those through routes!

spacetweek · 06-10-2009 3:35pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

indeed. In Germany city traffic is 50kmh, unless marked otherwise, and only side streets have the 30kmh limits.
So essentially city centre through routes like the ones to be altered in Dublin are 50kmh.

One thing that Germany (and other parts of the continent) does NOT have is a complete widespread disregard by pedestrians for pedestrian signals especially on busy WIDE streets where the traffic is moving quickly.

If people are essentially going to jump out in front of moving cars randomly in Dublin city centre then it sort of makes sense that the traffic that is liable to hit them should go slower to avoid the death of the pedestrian. Hitting one of the 100's of thousands of Dublin jaywalkers at 30kmh is much much less likely to kill them than at 50kmh.

But they shouldn't claim that the law has precedent in Europe. Nowhere in Europe has pedestrians strolling round busy thoroughfares amongst the traffic like in ireland so they dont have 30 limits on those through routes!

Don't agree. Whatever about Germany, in my experience all European capitals where I've noted the speed limit, it was 30km/h. Dublin is different from Berlin because it doesn't have lots of wide thoroughfares, there's only a handful really, the ones created by the Wide Streets Commission in the 19th century.

In any case, there is such a high level of car dominance in Dublin that I'm pleased to see new restrictions every time they come. The College Green busgate needs to be 24/7 too.

Victor · 06-10-2009 3:39pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

One thing that Germany (and other parts of the continent) does NOT have is a complete widespread disregard by pedestrians for pedestrian signals especially on busy WIDE streets where the traffic is moving quickly.

The problem with Ireland (and other countries) is that traffic lights are designed to allow cars get about but these traffic lights are imposed on other road users.

Fewer cars would mean fewer traffic lights and more green man time and less people jay-walking.

Zoney · 07-10-2009 10:18am

Dublin is particularly bad in my experience for wait times on traffic lights in the city centre if you wait for green man. And I know this as being unfamiliar with junction layouts and sequences, I don't consider it remotely possible to jaywalk (even a seeming gap, I have no idea if traffic is about to suddenly move in some lane off on the other side of the junction and turn across where I plan to walk). So I pretty much have no option but to wait for green at every crossing even if others are jaywalking. And yes this isn't remotely acceptable compared to other European cities I've been to (I don't jaywalk there either both for the same reason, and the possible stricter enforcement). Munich does of course have underground stations located beneath major intersections and so you can easily just go down through the subway.

In Dublin it's presumably due to the traffic volumes. Limerick city centre has only one crossing of interminable wait - and it's quite obviously due to traffic (crossing at top of Shannon street where traffic comes from both O'Connell and Roches St.). Cork is a bit worse than Limerick, again, presumably due to traffic.

I found the amount of buses in Dublin the biggest obstacle to jaywalking - I don't know how people still manage to jaywalk in Dublin.

gurramok · 07-10-2009 10:58am

Victor wrote: »

The problem with Ireland (and other countries) is that traffic lights are designed to allow cars get about but these traffic lights are imposed on other road users.

You're kidding right?

Dublin traffic is mostly all stop start from one light to the next causing more congestion.

Victor wrote:

Fewer cars would mean fewer traffic lights and more green man time and less people jay-walking.

Nice in theory

What's the odds on the Gardai enforcing these new limits?

Mucco · 07-10-2009 11:43am

The average speed in Dublin is 12.4kph, so I'm not sure a 30 kph limit will make any difference.

M

Jip · 07-10-2009 11:59am

Don't know where all this "you'll never get to that speed anyway" idea is coming from. You can easily do 30kph in the city centre. What brings the average speed down is the sitting in traffic waiting at lights, but once you move off from a set of lights like Pearse Street, the Quays or Nassau Street, and particularly around by the south and east of the Green you'll easily go much faster.

triple-M · 07-10-2009 12:11pm

spacetweek wrote: »

In any case, there is such a high level of car dominance in Dublin that I'm pleased to see new restrictions every time they come. The College Green busgate needs to be 24/7 too.

I absolutely disagree I think it should be done away with altogether as its creating an awful mess on the other nearby streets which buses still get caught up in anyways

MOH · 07-10-2009 12:46pm

gurramok wrote: »

You're kidding right?

Dublin traffic is mostly all stop start from one light to the next causing more congestion.

Traffic lights in the city centre greatly favour cars over pedestrians.

gurramok · 07-10-2009 1:27pm

MOH wrote: »

Traffic lights in the city centre greatly favour cars over pedestrians.

How? Pedestrians don't have too long a wait to wait for the green man. You cannot expect a wait time of 10 seconds just to cross the road, that is ridicoulus. What Dublin pedestrians don't possess is patience which their continental cousins have.

Pedestrian lights are mostly always green for most lights on turning left for cars & buses even when no-one presses the traffic light button for crossing, that aids congestion.

What I was saying to counteract Victor's post was that traffic lights are anti-movement of traffic, not just cars, buses are affected too. If they were sequenced enough, some of the congestion we see would be eased and there be no need to limit the speed limit.

At present the system encourages speeding (as well as polllution on stop/start) to beat the next junction light which in alot of cases just so happens to go red to prevent flow when you approach it.

Anyway, most drivers when seeing a load of pedestrians wondering across the road ahead slow down, its a natural reaction to prevent an collision just like slowing down in a housing estate with kids playing on the street.

cyclopath2001 · 07-10-2009 1:29pm

gurramok wrote: »

Dublin traffic is mostly all stop start from one light to the next causing more congestion.

The congestion is caused by the absurd amount of space consumed by each and every driver. The lights change to allow drivers coming from conflicting directions to get through and, occasionally, briefly to allow pedestrians to cross.

A lower limit would be very welcome, especially if it were to be result in habitual law-breakers being put off the roads.

KevR · 07-10-2009 3:56pm

I am both a pedestrian and a motorist and I don't think this lower limit is a great idea.

When I need to cross the road (where there's no lights) while walking somewhere when it's busy-ish there is nothing worse than a seeing a car coming and concluding that there would be a suitable gap (I am not talking about jay-walking here, please note: a "suitable gap") to cross after the car in question has passed if he/she was going at a normal speed (50kmh) but you don't get that gap because the car is going 25/30kmh, literally crawling. And then you get no other opportunity to cross for ages. I get really pissed off in situations like this. If that car wasn't going at such slow speed I could have been across the road and on my way ages ago. Not to mention the person in the car would get to where they are going quicker (by driving at 50kmh as opposed to 30kmh); the sooner they get to their destination, the sooner there is one less car on the road and therefore less congestion.

As a motorist I don't want to drive at 30kmh on any wide road on which it's perfectly safe to drive at 50kmh. Pedestrians shouldn't dart out in front of cars when there's not a suitable gap in traffic and they shouldn't cross when they don't have a green pedestrian light. I do agree that pedestrians have to wait too long to cross at some junctions in Dublin but that still does not entitle anyone to jay-walk.

Also, the amount of times people will press the pedestrian cross button before looking to see what the situation is on the road and then proceed to cross the road without waiting for the green pedestrian light - this is extremely annoying as a pedestrian and motorist.

Press the button.
Cross without waiting.
Cars come along and get unnecessarily stopped at red light.
Another pedestrian comes along after and wants to cross when the green pedestrian light is on but they have to wait 30 seconds extra because you triggered an extra pedestrian green on the previous sequence that was not actually used by any pedestrian.
Well done.

Heroditas · 07-10-2009 4:47pm

How many people have been killed in the city centre in the last few years by cars driving over 30kmph?

cyclopath2001 · 07-10-2009 5:29pm

Heroditas wrote: »

How many people have been killed in the city centre in the last few years by cars driving over 30kmph?

Should drivers be allowed with anything except killing people?

killbillvol2 · 07-10-2009 6:43pm

Mucco wrote: »

The average speed in Dublin is 12.4kph, so I'm not sure a 30 kph limit will make any difference.

M

Correct. I'd be happy to be able to drive around the city centre at 30 kph!

DWCommuter · 07-10-2009 9:57pm

When it comes to driving Im often left flabbergasted at the amount of posters here who obviously don't own or drive cars in Dublin. Pedestrians and cyclists with no cars havent a clue what Dublin is like. Try driving, cycling and walking around Dublin city centre to fully appreciate what its like from all aspects. This incessant slating of the car is tiresome, unproductive Green bull****.

Heroditas · 07-10-2009 10:07pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Should drivers be allowed with anything except killing people?

No so I should rephrase the question:

How many people are killed and injured by cars travelling over 30kmph in the city centre every year?

More yoghurt knitting hand wringing PC bullsh1t attempting to turn us into a nanny state.

Victor · 08-10-2009 1:15am

KevR wrote: »

but you don't get that gap because the car is going 25/30kmh, literally crawling.

Usain Bolt 100m in 9.58 seconds = 37.57km/h

Do you know what the word "literal" means?

Bee · 08-10-2009 1:19am

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The congestion is caused by the absurd amount of space consumed by each and every driver. The lights change to allow drivers coming from conflicting directions to get through and, occasionally, briefly to allow pedestrians to cross.

A lower limit would be very welcome, especially if it were to be result in habitual law-breakers being put off the roads.

An excellent point you make about the timing of traffic lights at various junctions. The inept lack of professionalism by Dublin City councils Traffic department in configuring a traffic light system appropriate to the varying volume of all road road users throughout a 24hr period is criminal. Really theses Bozo's should head off to the circus for suitable employment as clowns.

As regards the vast majority of pond life cyclists that may be witnessed daily breaking the law by ignoring all traffic lights, traffic laws etc, I absolutely agree with you that such "cyclists" should be jailed and put off the road for good.

Victor · 08-10-2009 1:25am

KevR wrote: »

the sooner they get to their destination, the sooner there is one less car on the road and therefore less congestion.

Wrong. Traffic expands to fill available road space.

Pedestrians shouldn't dart out in front of cars when there's not a suitable gap in traffic and they shouldn't cross when they don't have a green pedestrian light. I do agree that pedestrians have to wait too long to cross at some junctions in Dublin but that still does not entitle anyone to jay-walk.

Do you not see cause and effect?

Also, the amount of times people will press the pedestrian cross button before looking to see what the situation is on the road and then proceed to cross the road without waiting for the green pedestrian light - this is extremely annoying as a pedestrian and motorist.

Hypocrite. In the previous paragraph, you bemoan "they shouldn't cross when they don't have a green pedestrian light".

DWCommuter wrote: »

When it comes to driving Im often left flabbergasted at the amount of posters here who obviously don't own or drive cars in Dublin. Pedestrians and cyclists with no cars havent a clue what Dublin is like.

I find this curious. Cyclists and pedestrains know exactly what Dublin is like - they hear the noises, smell the smells, feel the vibrations. It is the motorists that are sealed off from the outside world.

When was the last time you were able to stop someone in a car to look for directions?

Try driving, cycling and walking around Dublin city centre to fully appreciate what its like from all aspects. This incessant slating of the car is tiresome, unproductive Green bull****.

I do walk, cycle and use buses around Dublin. Occassionally a taxi or as a passenger in a friend's car. An most of the problem is the cars. Driven by people not from the city - just look outside Harcourt Square or Pearse Street Garda stations.

Victor · 08-10-2009 1:27am

Bee wrote: »

pond life cyclists

Can we keep a civil discussion?

Sponge Bob · 08-10-2009 8:32am

When is the M50 dropping to 80kph ??

AugustusMaximus · 08-10-2009 8:59am

Bee wrote: »

An excellent point you make about the timing of traffic lights at various junctions. The inept lack of professionalism by Dublin City councils Traffic department in configuring a traffic light system appropriate to the varying volume of all road road users throughout a 24hr period is criminal. Really theses Bozo's should head off to the circus for suitable employment as clowns.

As regards the vast majority of pond life cyclists that may be witnessed daily breaking the law by ignoring all traffic lights, traffic laws etc, I absolutely agree with you that such "cyclists" should be jailed and put off the road for good.

Most cyclists simply don't care about red lights and just go through them at will.

AugustusMaximus · 08-10-2009 9:02am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

When is the M50 dropping to 80kph ??

Dan Boyle (unelected official) came up with the suggestion of knocking 20kph off of all 120kph and 100kph speed limits in the country.

I can still remember the public outrage on radio shows etc in regards to this proposal. It would have buried the Green Party over night.

gurramok · 08-10-2009 9:55am

Victor wrote: »

I do walk, cycle and use buses around Dublin. Occassionally a taxi or as a passenger in a friend's car. An most of the problem is the cars. Driven by people not from the city - just look outside Harcourt Square or Pearse Street Garda stations.

What have you got against the Gardai parking their cars?

As a pedestrian, I was nearly hit twice last week by cyclists breaking red lights. I shouted 'red light' in front of everyone at one fella out of frustration.

cyclopath2001 wrote:

The congestion is caused by the absurd amount of space consumed by each and every driver. The lights change to allow drivers coming from conflicting directions to get through and, occasionally, briefly to allow pedestrians to cross.

Conflicting directions and how the council fecks it up is where the problem is.
The lights are timed at junctions where side roads and less important roads instantly stop the main road traffic when a vehicle appears causing said congestion.

If they timed the lights to make traffic on said side roads wait a couple of minutes for a green light, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

As a cyclist it must be frustrating for you too when you stop at red lights at these type of junctions :P

Sponge Bob · 08-10-2009 10:06am

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

Dan Boyle (unelected official) came up with the suggestion of knocking 20kph off of all 120kph and 100kph speed limits in the country..

Thats Senator Dan Boyle and as you know he and the Bicycle Man are negotiating a new programme for government right now .

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0930/politics.html.

Jip · 08-10-2009 10:23am

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Correct. I'd be happy to be able to drive around the city centre at 30 kph!

tap tap tap, Hello, hello, anybody hear me ?!! , 30kph is easily achievable in the city centre, and is done so on a daily basis. Where are people getting this misplaced idea it's not ? Is it because people see what the average speed is but don't actually understand what this means, I reckon so.

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

Most cyclists simply don't care about red lights and just go through them at will.

Yourself and Bee should post you opinions over to the cycling forum and see where that gets you. It's like the saying that all men are rapists, just because they have the goods to do so and some occasionally do.

Bee, what mythical law do you think cyclists should be locked up under ? The same one that locks people up for stupidity ?

AugustusMaximus · 08-10-2009 10:59am

Jip wrote: »

Yourself and Bee should post you opinions over to the cycling forum and see where that gets you. It's like the saying that all men are rapists, just because they have the goods to do so and some occasionally do.

While it is just my day to day observation, I would put it down to about half of all cyclists who consistently break red lights.

BTW, I never said all cyclists run red lights.

Jip · 08-10-2009 11:10am

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

I would put it down to about half of all cyclists who consistently break red lights.

AugustusMaximus wrote:

Most cyclists simply don't care about red lights

Well which is it ?

Seaswimmer · 08-10-2009 11:16am

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

While it is just my day to day observation, I would put it down to about half of all cyclists who consistently break red lights.

BTW, I never said all cyclists run red lights.

Cyclists break red lights and other laws for the exact same reason that motorists and pedestrians do. Because they get away with it. I suspect that the 30km/h will attract the exact same level of enforcement. We probably have more laws than most other places but almost zero enforcement..

KevR · 08-10-2009 11:19am

Victor wrote: »

Do you know what the word "literal" means?

Jip wrote: »

Well which is it ?

I have to say replies like these aren't very constructive.

Victor, I am sure you have heard someone describe very slow moving traffic as "crawling" before. Forgive me for incorrectly using the word "literally" but I'm sure you know what I meant.

Jip, AugustusMaximus obviously means "a lot" or "far too many" cyclists break red lights.

Jip · 08-10-2009 11:36am

I disagree, if that's what he meant, that's what he'd say. His statements were fairly straightforward with no room for misinterpretation, he obviously thinks the majority of cyclists have utter disregard for traffic laws.

KevR · 08-10-2009 11:38am

Victor wrote: »

Hypocrite. In the previous paragraph, you bemoan "they shouldn't cross when they don't have a green pedestrian light".

I agree that I did contradict myself, thanks for pointing it out. Allow me to clarify - when I said people shouldn't cross when they don't have a green pedestrian light I meant they shouldn't start walking when it has just switched to amber or red because they should know that the cars queuing at the junction are about to pull off. They also should not cross when the ped light is red and cars are moving through the junction - obviously. That's jay-walking. It's stupid and highly dangerous.

When I said people should asses the situation on the road before pressing the button, that was aimed at less busy roads/streets and less busy times of the day in particular.

When I'm out walking I always try to be courteous to other pedestrians (by not pressing the button if I don't need to, see my other post about how pedestrians wishing to cross later with a green ped light will have to wait longer if I press it when I don't need it) and I try to be couteous to motorists by not walking out in front of them and by not pressing a ped crossing button when I don't need to.

When I'm driving I try to be courteous to other road users and pedestrians. If I see a pedestrian struggling to get a safe opportunity to cross the road and if me stopping won't cause any problems for other road users, I will stop and allow the pedestrian to cross.

Walking or driving I want to get where I'm going in an effecient and quick manner without holding anyone else up. If only other people had a similar mindset to me, things might be a lot better for everyone. But, then again, it could be me who is wrong - maybe I should be bitter and spiteful like it seems most people are and go out of my way to hold other people up whether it gets me where I'm going faster or not.

Mucco · 08-10-2009 11:40am

Here's a pretty good reason to reduce the limit:

attachment.php?attachmentid=92764&stc=1&d=1254998046

Years of data collection and fatality risks estimated at 30 km/h, 50 km/h, and 70 km/h in previous publications on the fatality risk for pedestrians struck by passenger cars.

attachment.php?attachmentid=92765&stc=1&d=1254998377

attachment.php?attachmentid=92765&stc=1&d=1254998377

Pedestrian fatality risk. (a) The fatality risk as a function of impact speed for adult pedestrians hit by the front of a passenger car. The dotted curves show approximate 95% confidence limits. (b) Zoom in on the risk curve below 60 km/h.

Rosen and Sander, Accident Analysis & Prevention, 41 (3), 2009, 536

KevR · 08-10-2009 11:42am

Jip wrote: »

I disagree

So you think your post was very constructive?

Jip wrote: »

he obviously thinks the majority of cyclists have utter disregard for traffic laws.

If it's obvious what he thinks then there was no need for your post.

Euro_Kraut · 08-10-2009 11:47am

This is a great idea. There is no need for city centre traffic to go any faster than 30km/h. The city centre roads belong to all road users, be they motorists, cyclists or pedestrians. Its important that everyone has respect for everyone else in such a shared environment.

Aside from the safety issues this should improve noise and air pollution levels in the city and generally make the place a more pleasurable place to be.

Jip · 08-10-2009 11:50am

Do you help the guy cross the road too KevR, if there's anything that's no constructive it's you speaking for some else. The guy had no problem posting earlier, I don't think he'll have any problem replying so subsequent posts.

For the record, I disagree with your second point about what he meant. And it's as constructive as someone tarring the majority of cyclists with the same brush.

KevR · 08-10-2009 12:00pm

Jip wrote: »

For the record, I disagree with your second point about what he meant. And it's as constructive as someone tarring the majority of cyclists with the same brush.

If you feel he is tarring cyclists with the same brush and disagree or are offended by it, that's perfectly fine. A good counter-arguement would add a lot to the thread. Nit-picking on how someone phrases their words in 2 different posts didn't add much apart from this totally irrevelant debate that we're having now...

Euro_Kraut · 08-10-2009 12:04pm

murphaph wrote: »

They're not in place here, only quiet side streets have 30 limits in Berlin. All thoroughfare streets are 50 or 60 and the urban motorways are (mostly) 80.

This article says that 80% of all streets in Inner Berlin have a 30km/p speed limit.

The article floats the idea of adding Unter dem Linden to the list.

It seems reasonable to me that many street in a urban setting should have lower limits. Right now no streets in Dublin City Centre have a 30km/p limit. Its good that we are moving into line with other large European Cities.

bmm · 08-10-2009 12:12pm

30 kph should be rolled out for all of Dublin 1 and Dublin 2 . The aggressive behaviour of many truck drivers, van drivers, taxi's and bus drivers is despicable around the city centre.

AugustusMaximus · 08-10-2009 12:21pm

Jip wrote: »

I disagree, if that's what he meant, that's what he'd say. His statements were fairly straightforward with no room for misinterpretation, he obviously thinks the majority of cyclists have utter disregard for traffic laws.

If you want to nitpick, then I will too.

1. I said about half. Of course, this could be interpreted as half +1 which would entail the majority or "most" breaking lights.
2. Please don't put words into my mouth like you have done with your post above. I never said such a thing.

bk · 08-10-2009 1:10pm

gurramok wrote: »

As a cyclist it must be frustrating for you too when you stop at red lights at these type of junctions :P

Actually as a mostly law abiding cyclist it is very frustrating as the lights on these sort of junctions seem to be activated by the presence of cars and not bikes. I've often had to wait a vary long time at a junction, with it only turning green when a car eventually arrives behind me.

I can certainly understand many cyclists frustration at this and why they break the law. I'll admit that at one or two particularly bad junctions I very carefully break a red light myself, slowing down as I approach it, carefully looking in both directions first, wouldn't break light if pedestrians are crossing the road, etc.

Heroditas · 08-10-2009 1:26pm

Mucco wrote: »

Here's a pretty good reason to reduce the limit:

While those figures are fine, any figures that show how many people have been killed or injured in Dublin city centre this decade by vehicles travelling at speeds greater than 30kmph?

One shouldn't just impose a far lower speed limit because:
A) other cities have done it

figures show that IF someone is hit by a car at speeds greater than 30kmph they stand a greater chance of dying.

ardmacha · 08-10-2009 1:31pm

While those figures are fine, any figures that show how many people have been killed or injured in Dublin city centre this decade by vehicles travelling at speeds greater than 30kmph?

The problem is that there will be no enforcement. Those people who respect the limit in the absence of enforcement will tend to be good drivers anyway, who are probably significantly less likely to cause an accident under the present regime. If some traffic slows down, then pedestrians will disregard road safety even more than now, making them vulnerable to those scofflaws who ignore a new limit.

Great if there is enforcement of this limit, of cyclists breaking lights etc, but who thinks there will be?

markpb · 08-10-2009 1:55pm

gurramok wrote: »

Conflicting directions and how the council fecks it up is where the problem is. The lights are timed at junctions where side roads and less important roads instantly stop the main road traffic when a vehicle appears causing said congestion.

If the lights on side roads changed less frequently, the traffic would back and could cause a jam somewhere else, for example by backing up so far that it blocks the next main road. In any event, a lot of junctions in Dublin are on 5-6 minute timers so they don't change as often you think.

bk wrote: »

I've often had to wait a vary long time at a junction, with it only turning green when a car eventually arrives behind me.

Apparently a lot of those grids are broken because of nearby construction work or dodgy phone lines. They should all respond to bikes though. If you find some that don't, try telling the local authority and see if they fix it. The Traffic-ITS staff in DCC have always been very helpful when I contacted them.

murphaph · 08-10-2009 3:38pm

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

This article says that 80% of all streets in Inner Berlin have a 30km/p speed limit.

No it doesn't. It says that 80% of Wohnstrassen/Spielstrassen have a 30 limit, which is what I said-side streets are usually 30 and thoroughfares are 50/60 unless otherwise posted (for example, around schools even on thoroughfares it's almost always 30 between set times).

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

The article floats the idea of adding Unter dem Linden to the list.

...and it's still 50 on Unter den Linden 8 years after that proposal was made despite the CDU losing the mayorship to the party that proposed this daft 30 limit on Unter den Linden

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

It seems reasonable to me that many street in a urban setting should have lower limits. Right now no streets in Dublin City Centre have a 30km/p limit. Its good that we are moving into line with other large European Cities.

Erm, O'Connell street has a 30 limit does it not?

Side streets should be 30, but busy thoroughfares should remain 50 in Dublin. The issues are more to do with driver and pedestrian behaviour than speed limits.

AMontague · 08-10-2009 4:43pm

ardmacha wrote: »

The problem is that there will be no enforcement.

The enforcement will mainly be achieved by the traffic light sequence. Those drivers that travel at a smooth and steady 30kph will be rewarded with a run of green lights. Those that race to the next lights will be penalised by hitting red lights every time.

gurramok · 08-10-2009 5:03pm

markpb wrote: »

If the lights on side roads changed less frequently, the traffic would back and could cause a jam somewhere else, for example by backing up so far that it blocks the next main road. In any event, a lot of junctions in Dublin are on 5-6 minute timers so they don't change as often you think.

They don't block with just a few vehicles waiting. I'm talking about roads which just regularly have a tiny numbers of vehicles on it at the getting a green light instantly against a road that gets hundreds of vehicles flowing on it. It happens alot.

Regarding timers, why are they not all at busy junctions on timers?

Around Mountjoy is an example. Traffic on Gardiner St Upper/Mountjoy Sq West(busy peak times) is always stopped for 3 minutes at a red light at Gardiner Place even if no traffic appears on Gardiner Place, disgraceful.

markpb · 08-10-2009 5:14pm

gurramok wrote: »

They don't block with just a few vehicles waiting. I'm talking about roads which just regularly have a tiny numbers of vehicles on it at the getting a green light instantly against a road that gets hundreds of vehicles flowing on it. It happens alot.

I haven't seen many junctions like that in Dublin, especially not in the city centre. Where are they?

Regarding timers, why are they not all at busy junctions on timers?

I'm not sure what you mean. Most of the main junctions in Dublin are connected to SCATS which takes an area approach to traffic management rather than having fixed rules for each junction. In theory it could know to change one road to an early red to reduce congestion further up or alternatively give another road extra green to reduce congestion father downstream. It's not perfect but apparently it's quite advanced.

gurramok wrote: »

Around Mountjoy is an example. Traffic on Gardiner St Upper/Mountjoy Sq West(busy peak times) is always stopped for 3 minutes at a red light at Gardiner Place even if no traffic appears on Gardiner Place, disgraceful.

That could be a broken ground-loop. They can easily be damaged by dodgy road repairs and go nuts picking up cars where there are none or not picking them up at all. Also, if the data connection between the ground-loop and the ITS control centre is down, they revert to timers as a backup. Contact ITS at 1800 29 39 49 or through customerservices@dublincity.ie and ask them to look into it if you want?

Some junctions don't have ground-loops for some reason and still rely on timers which is crazy but I guess there's a cost to upgrading them and not all of them have been done yet.

Dublin city centre to have 30kph speed limit from Jan 31 2010

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