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Greenways and Disused Rail Alignments

  • 04-06-2009 3:03pm
    #1
    Rawr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭


    I'm not certain if this belongs here or on a Travel & Tourism board, but the debate currently raging over on the Western Rail Corridor topic has brought up the issue of Greenways. This, and the suggestion of a fellow Boardser, have prompted me to create a topic of it's own.

    For those who do not know; Greenways are often Long-Distance pathways and cycletracks which are typically built upon dismantled or disused rail-alignments, or other similar corridors. The WRC debate had brought forward the idea of converting it's alignment north of Athenry, into Greenways.

    If it is the case that the WRC's Phase 2 and 3 (Athenry - Sligo) are not rebuilt for rail traffic, I believe that this alignment would make an excellent Greenway.

    However, this is not the only disused Railway in CIE ownership. Much of the remains of our once extensive rail-network can be seen in many parts of our country, many of which may still be owned CIE, and may be perfect caniditates for conversion into Greenways.

    EireTrains' excellent website photo-catalogs a lot of these old alignments and is well worth a look.

    Although, what are the benefits of doing this? Personally, a couple of potential benefits come to mind:

    -Greenways may help in opening up our countryside to cycling and other recreation. I feel that they could be far more enjoyable to navigate compared to existing country roads.

    -They may promote tourism and other cycle-realted activity along their routes.

    -They could protect the rail alignment from encrochment.

    The final point on encrochment, is what I believe to be the strongest advantage to greenways. They would protect the alignment from housing and other possible developments being built upon it. Although some of our disused raillines may not nessisarily be needed now, the possibilty of re-construction should always be there for whatever future need we may have.

    You may agree with what I have to say here, your may disagree, you may even see disadvantages to Greenways that I do not...but regardless, I am very interested to see what opinion to this concept will be...


«1

Comments

  • #2
    Gruffalo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Gruffalo


    These greenways could provide a safe way for cyclists to get into and around some of our larger towns cities. By removing or reducing the time spent sharing space with cars, cyclists would feel safer and are more likely to take up the option of cycling to and from work.


  • #3
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    You know I am a big fan of these suggest all look at the sustrans website to see the amazing work done in the UK in this area over the past ten years:

    www.sustrans.org.uk and http://www.sustransconnect2.org.uk/r...elines%206.pdf


  • #4
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,555 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    If any of them are to be looked at, New Ross is probably the least likely to ever re-open (well, Foynes, but its still 'open' officially!); and is in a fairly touristy area. If one was to be trialled, I'd go for this.


  • #5
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Tralee/Fenit would be an ideal one but I seriously doubt there is the volume of potential visitors to make any of these trails viable. What about the Great Southern Trail on the former North Kerry Railway line see link here http://www.southerntrail.net/

    I shouldn't imagine it is really much of a money spinner, as like so many other things in Ireland the population isn't there to support it and our tourist visitor numbers are dismal.


  • #6
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Tralee/Fenit would be an ideal one but I seriously doubt there is the volume of potential visitors to make any of these trails viable. What about the Great Southern Trail on the former North Kerry Railway line see link here http://www.southerntrail.net/

    I shouldn't imagine it is really much of a money spinner, as like so many other things in Ireland the population isn't there to support it and our tourist visitor numbers are dismal.

    JD yes you have made a serious point about our visitor numbers and critical mass of population - but these are a great way of maintaining the alignments in public ownership and putting them to some use (eg claremorris Collooney!)- and actually they cost very little to maintain, viability is not really an issue people will not be paying to use them. Really they are about what kind of society do we want to live in? They will provide somewhere safe for people to walk and cycle and take the granny out in the wheelchair on Sunday and kids in buggies etc; they are not just about visitors and tourists but also about improving the overall quality of life for residents. Marketed well some could become key tourist attractions - but not will not attract high volumes of people - A cycle network in the west and northwest though would make a cycling holiday a viable option again in Ireland - how anyone cycles for long distances on our roads now is beyond me.


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  • #7
    gjim
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭gjim


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Tralee/Fenit would be an ideal one but I seriously doubt there is the volume of potential visitors to make any of these trails viable. What about the Great Southern Trail on the former North Kerry Railway line see link here http://www.southerntrail.net/

    I shouldn't imagine it is really much of a money spinner, as like so many other things in Ireland the population isn't there to support it and our tourist visitor numbers are dismal.
    Yes I've walked Tralee/Fenit as a child. It should be perfect with the views of Mount Brandon across Tralee bay and the termination near the sea.

    Unfortunately I think it would cost quite a bit currently to make it passable as it has been allowed to completely degenerate. This happened very quickly. Up to about 20 years ago, they still did a maintenance/weed spraying run a few times a year. It is now completely overgrown to the extent that it's hard to discern in places and not just with bushes but serious looking trees and the like. Also a number of bridges have been (illegally) removed.

    I've also been told that IR have effectively informed adjacent landowners that they may soon be given the nod and they'll be welcome to grab what's left of it.

    It would never be a "money spinner" (on that basis most public infrastructure would never be built) but it would provide great amenity. It should not cost much to maintain once established. Paths like these have survived in Europe since Celtic times and are still used and usable; all you need is a bit of footfall. Well ok and maybe a weed spray once a year or so and a sprinkle of gravel.


  • #8
    Gruffalo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Gruffalo


    gjim wrote: »
    Yes I've walked Tralee/Fenit as a child. It should be perfect with the views of Mount Brandon across Tralee bay and the termination near the sea.

    Unfortunately I think it would cost quite a bit currently to make it passable as it has been allowed to completely degenerate. This happened very quickly. Up to about 20 years ago, they still did a maintenance/weed spraying run a few times a year. It is now completely overgrown to the extent that it's hard to discern in places and not just with bushes but serious looking trees and the like. Also a number of bridges have been (illegally) removed.

    I've also been told that IR have effectively informed adjacent landowners that they may soon be given the nod and they'll be welcome to grab what's left of it.

    It would never be a "money spinner" (on that basis most public infrastructure would never be built) but it would provide great amenity. It should not cost much to maintain once established. Paths like these have survived in Europe since Celtic times and are still used and usable; all you need is a bit of footfall. Well ok and maybe a weed spray once a year or so and a sprinkle of gravel.

    In fairness, if something like this got the go ahead, you would probably be able to organise enough volunteers to do most of the work. What they could not do could be done by a FÁS scheme. This would keep the cost down and the materials required would hardly be to expensive. It would be the kind of project that could really foster community spirit.


  • #9
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    gjim wrote: »
    Yes I've walked Tralee/Fenit as a child. It should be perfect with the views of Mount Brandon across Tralee bay and the termination near the sea.

    Unfortunately I think it would cost quite a bit currently to make it passable as it has been allowed to completely degenerate. This happened very quickly. Up to about 20 years ago, they still did a maintenance/weed spraying run a few times a year. It is now completely overgrown to the extent that it's hard to discern in places and not just with bushes but serious looking trees and the like. Also a number of bridges have been (illegally) removed.

    I've also been told that IR have effectively informed adjacent landowners that they may soon be given the nod and they'll be welcome to grab what's left of it.

    It would never be a "money spinner" (on that basis most public infrastructure would never be built) but it would provide great amenity. It should not cost much to maintain once established. Paths like these have survived in Europe since Celtic times and are still used and usable; all you need is a bit of footfall. Well ok and maybe a weed spray once a year or so and a sprinkle of gravel.

    I suggest if you do have these suspicions they should be put on record to the public - and I don't mean a message board note - drop a quick line with the idea to Eamon o'cuiv and cc the email to Dempsey and send a copy to IR or write to them separately - if they have something in writing that something untoward is happening they won't do it. I have taken the liverty of drafting a suggested email for you Making the following points:

    Dear Minister:

    I understand your department is looking at the possibility of creating a series of "greenway linear paths" along dissused railway lines in the west of Ireland -I fully support this idea as I think it will be a major tourist attraction. I read the comments you made in a speech on May 1st about the Claremorris to Collooney line as a potential greenway, which I think is a great idea.

    I wanted to bring to your attention the line from Fenit to Tralee - which I think would be an ideal candidate for such a project, with spectactular views of Mount Brandon.

    However, I have some concerns as I've been told that Irish Rail have effectively informed adjacent landowners that they may soon be given the nod and they'll be welcome to grab what's left of the line for private usage. The line has been closed many years - and I think action is required now to ensure the lineage remains in public ownership.

    Could you confirm that Irish Rail will not be doing what I fear is going to happen. Many thanks in advance and good luck with this intiative which I fully support.


    Believe me - I have met O'cuiv and discussed this matter with him and it is something he wants to push for the west. He will respond to your letter.


  • #10
    HeritageRailway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40 ✭HeritageRailway


    Legally, Irish Rail don't have any absolute say in the use or disposal of an old railway trackbed or land asset as they don't have ownership of the property; this is actually held by CIE under it's property arm.

    The difficulty in opening a walkway is in the legal framework to dispose of the line as the Laws stand. For any disused line to be disposed of, Irish Rail firstly informs the CIE Board that they have absolutely no more use for the line as an operational railway. The CIE Board, if it so accepts this position, then informs the Minister of Transport (The owner of CIE) of intent to apply for a formal abandonment order to extinguish the lines protection under any applicable railway order in existence. Assuming that there is no objections and it is carried through, any land banks are legally offered to adjacent landowners first off, local authorities then offered any unsold land. After this, land is offered on the open market to all comers. In some cases, CIE still own land on trackbeds that remained unsold and can use the land as paths if it so wishes. This process explains how IE could infer that a land is available to adjacent landowners in time without actually handing it over.

    By and large, any railway that has been turned into a walking path has local council backing or assistance to some level or degree and CIE have a history of co-operating with efforts to preserve trackbeds.
    westtip wrote: »
    I suggest if you do have these suspicions they should be put on record to the public - and I don't mean a message board note - drop a quick line with the idea to Eamon o'cuiv and cc the email to Dempsey and send a copy to IR or write to them separately - if they have something in writing that something untoward is happening they won't do it. I have taken the liverty of drafting a suggested email for you Making the following points:

    Dear Minister:

    I understand your department is looking at the possibility of creating a series of "greenway linear paths" along dissused railway lines in the west of Ireland -I fully support this idea as I think it will be a major tourist attraction. I read the comments you made in a speech on May 1st about the Claremorris to Collooney line as a potential greenway, which I think is a great idea.

    I wanted to bring to your attention the line from Fenit to Tralee - which I think would be an ideal candidate for such a project, with spectactular views of Mount Brandon.

    However, I have some concerns as I've been told that Irish Rail have effectively informed adjacent landowners that they may soon be given the nod and they'll be welcome to grab what's left of the line for private usage. The line has been closed many years - and I think action is required now to ensure the lineage remains in public ownership.

    Could you confirm that Irish Rail will not be doing what I fear is going to happen. Many thanks in advance and good luck with this intiative which I fully support.


    Believe me - I have met O'cuiv and discussed this matter with him and it is something he wants to push for the west. He will respond to your letter.


  • #11
    gjim
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭gjim


    Gruffalo, the same thought immediately struck me that it would be a perfect FAS project. However I haven't a clue whether FAS does much stuff like this any more - back in the 80s and 90s I remember lots of FAS "community projects". Not so much recently.

    Westtip, my tie with this area is a close relative farmer who is one of the adjacent land owners. I will be down there in the next week or so and will properly quiz him on what the IR man said to him; to be honest I could be misrepresenting the situation because I cannot remember the full details but HeritageRailways explanation of the abandonment process would seem to confirm it.

    I think my relative would not mind at all if the line cleared were for walkers and he seemed somewhat disinterested in about the prospect of a free acre or so of land. We even mentioned this idea years ago before I ever heard of the Greenway movement. But you'll understand that I'd like to confirm the man's feelings before I start campaigning against it. If he's amenable and the facts in regard to abandonment of the line are confirmed, I will sent off a letter.


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  • #12
    Rawr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭Rawr


    HeritageRailway wrote: »
    Legally, Irish Rail don't have any absolute say in the use or disposal of an old railway trackbed or land asset as they don't have ownership of the property; this is actually held by CIE under it's property arm.

    The difficulty in opening a walkway is in the legal framework to dispose of the line as the Laws stand. For any disused line to be disposed of, Irish Rail firstly informs the CIE Board that they have absolutely no more use for the line as an operational railway. The CIE Board, if it so accepts this position, then informs the Minister of Transport (The owner of CIE) of intent to apply for a formal abandonment order to extinguish the lines protection under any applicable railway order in existence. Assuming that there is no objections and it is carried through, any land banks are legally offered to adjacent landowners first off, local authorities then offered any unsold land. After this, land is offered on the open market to all comers. In some cases, CIE still own land on trackbeds that remained unsold and can use the land as paths if it so wishes. This process explains how IE could infer that a land is available to adjacent landowners in time without actually handing it over.

    By and large, any railway that has been turned into a walking path has local council backing or assistance to some level or degree and CIE have a history of co-operating with efforts to preserve trackbeds.

    Thanks for that info HeritageRailway.
    I wonder, is it really nessisary for IE to declare the line abandoned? I feel that a Greenway need not nessisarily replace a dismantled railline, but instead, act as a physical 'place-holder' which has the double-perpose of being a cycle/walkway.

    I'm very pro-rail myself, and I'd love as many of the old rail-lines re-opened as possible....but that is not always realistic. Thus Greenways should be used as a way of keeping this property in public (CIE) ownership, until such a time when a rail-line may be needed there again. (Without having to spend a fortune, re-purchasing the land)


  • #13
    HeritageRailway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40 ✭HeritageRailway


    Rawr wrote: »
    Thanks for that info HeritageRailway.
    I wonder, is it really nessisary for IE to declare the line abandoned? I feel that a Greenway need not nessisarily replace a dismantled railline, but instead, act as a physical 'place-holder' which has the double-perpose of being a cycle/walkway.

    I'm very pro-rail myself, and I'd love as many of the old rail-lines re-opened as possible....but that is not always realistic. Thus Greenways should be used as a way of keeping this property in public (CIE) ownership, until such a time when a rail-line may be needed there again. (Without having to spend a fortune, re-purchasing the land)

    It would be required as there is a change of use of the lines route as per thes relevant railway order; abandonment is the legal route and allows for re-use of the land. The issue with laying a walkway is that if it ended up that it established a right of way for the path and a track was relaid, then there may be access issues in the future but it's an easier situation to deal with than a house or factory on the trackbed :)


  • #14
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Why does anything sensible have to be so bloody complicated in this wonderful little (really little) country of ours.


  • #15
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,491 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    HeritageRailway wrote: »
    Assuming that there is no objections and it is carried through, any land banks are legally offered to adjacent landowners first off, local authorities then offered any unsold land.
    Are you sure it isn't the other way around? Local authority first, then adjacent land owners?


  • #16
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Rawr wrote: »
    Thanks for that info HeritageRailway.
    I wonder, is it really nessisary for IE to declare the line abandoned? I feel that a Greenway need not nessisarily replace a dismantled railline, but instead, act as a physical 'place-holder' which has the double-perpose of being a cycle/walkway.

    Unless the law is changed of course. this can be done inside a day ( all 5 Oireachtas stages) if the govt feel it is important.....

    Long distance low level walks/cycle paths would be a winner if marketed properly here. The west Cork line has some fabulous scenery and great engineering to go over. Even excluding the viaduct over the N71.

    I passed loads of the wrc today on the N17, it's so suited to a cycling /walking route.


  • #17
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    gjim wrote: »
    Yes I've walked Tralee/Fenit as a child. It should be perfect with the views of Mount Brandon across Tralee bay and the termination near the sea.

    Unfortunately I think it would cost quite a bit currently to make it passable as it has been allowed to completely degenerate. This happened very quickly. Up to about 20 years ago, they still did a maintenance/weed spraying run a few times a year. It is now completely overgrown to the extent that it's hard to discern in places and not just with bushes but serious looking trees and the like. Also a number of bridges have been (illegally) removed.

    I've also been told that IR have effectively informed adjacent landowners that they may soon be given the nod and they'll be welcome to grab what's left of it.

    It would never be a "money spinner" (on that basis most public infrastructure would never be built) but it would provide great amenity. It should not cost much to maintain once established. Paths like these have survived in Europe since Celtic times and are still used and usable; all you need is a bit of footfall. Well ok and maybe a weed spray once a year or so and a sprinkle of gravel.

    Fenit is pretty much unusable, most of the line in Tralee town centre has been lifted. I don't even know where it resumes, I keep intending to travel to Tralee and go hunting for the remains (yes I'm that sad, lol).


  • #18
    HeritageRailway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40 ✭HeritageRailway


    Victor wrote: »
    Are you sure it isn't the other way around? Local authority first, then adjacent land owners?

    Landowners get first call, the 1944 Transport act allows for land owners "under or adjoining" a line this protection. After this, the land may go to Public Auction . As a rule, track land is only of much use to adjacent landowners and even then, it's generally just to allow access to land that they may have; embankments and cuttings making cultivating land awkward in places. In practice, only stations and buildings have proven desirable to the general public due to the property value.


  • #19
    HeritageRailway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40 ✭HeritageRailway


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Unless the law is changed of course. this can be done inside a day ( all 5 Oireachtas stages) if the govt feel it is important.....

    Long distance low level walks/cycle paths would be a winner if marketed properly here. The west Cork line has some fabulous scenery and great engineering to go over. Even excluding the viaduct over the N71.

    I passed loads of the wrc today on the N17, it's so suited to a cycling /walking route.

    To change the law, there is many Railway Acts that need to be taken into account to ensure that there; it is a lot more work than a day in Leinster House. There is also the factor of taking into account the relevant communities (both at Council level and with local groups) to back such plans for walks. Not to say that it isn't a good idea but it does take far more work to pull it off both in front of and behind the scenes than meets the eye. Routes, land ownership and who controls the walkway, safety (footpaths crossing major roads is asking for trouble in this land), patronage; there is a long list of things to consider here, but possible it certainly is.


  • #20
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭serfboard


    I am hugely in favour of Greenways myself for the same reasons given by other posters, and also find it very frustrating that such a convoluted legal process has to be gone through.

    However, as I mentioned in the WOT thread I have actually seen a Greenway in Ireland :eek:

    There's one in Dungarvan - a perfect model - the track is (maintained) grass with some tarmac down the middle - and I believe there is also one around Newcastlewest along the old Limerick - North Kerry Route. As has been mentioned by other posters there is so much potential greenway in Ireland (Sligo-Donegal route is another possibility - visible from the Barnesmore Gap).

    According to this document:
    - The average spend of walking activists is greater than for any other activity
    - The average length of holiday stay is greater at 16 nights
    - The potential for repeat business is extremely high in this market - 88% are very/quite likely to revisit

    So, as others have said, if Discover Ireland would advertise them properly, as well as a great facility for ourselves, they could prove to be a very nice little earner from tourists for us - and God knows we're going to need it!


  • #21
    Gruffalo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Gruffalo


    serfboard wrote: »
    I am hugely in favour of Greenways myself for the same reasons given by other posters, and also find it very frustrating that such a convoluted legal process has to be gone through.

    However, as I mentioned in the WOT thread I have actually seen a Greenway in Ireland :eek:

    There's one in Dungarvan - a perfect model - the track is (maintained) grass with some tarmac down the middle - and I believe there is also one around Newcastlewest along the old Limerick - North Kerry Route. As has been mentioned by other posters there is so much potential greenway in Ireland (Sligo-Donegal route is another possibility - visible from the Barnesmore Gap).

    According to this document:



    So, as others have said, if Discover Ireland would advertise them properly, as well as a great facility for ourselves, they could prove to be a very nice little earner from tourists for us - and God knows we're going to need it!

    Not only would they attract tourists on their own merit. They would also be an additional attraction for people who are considering Ireland for a holiday and because walkers generally do not worry too much about the weather, they could help to extend the holiday season in Ireland.


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  • #22
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    serfboard wrote: »
    I am hugely in favour of Greenways myself for the same reasons given by other posters, and also find it very frustrating that such a convoluted legal process has to be gone through.

    However, as I mentioned in the WOT thread I have actually seen a Greenway in Ireland :eek:


    According to this document:



    !

    Thanksf for link to that Waterford .pdf re their strategy its good to see that CC is on board - it's a document which should be read by every council. I will be getting it into the hands of all my local councillors.


  • #23
    Rawr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭Rawr


    westtip wrote: »
    Thanksf for link to that Waterford .pdf re their strategy its good to see that CC is on board - it's a document which should be read by every council. I will be getting it into the hands of all my local councillors.

    Agreed, this an excellent docmument which should be seen by all local authorities with disused rail-alignments in thier catchment.

    One concern however. On reading the section on the disused Waterford-Dungarvan line, there is brief mention of 'Administritive Delays' in transfering ownership of the alignment from CIE to the County Council. Although this could be just something minor, ...this could also be due to something far more serious that could 'de-rail' any potential greenway project here.

    HeritageRailway's description of the process for CIE to abandon and transfer ownership of old alignments to a CC, mentions that ajoining land-owners essentially get first-dibs on the property. I can imagine possible situations where a land-owner may actually take up that offer and thus truncate the entire greenway.


  • #24
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Rawr wrote: »
    Agreed, this an excellent docmument which should be seen by all local authoprities with disused rail-alignments in thier catchment.

    One concern however. On reading the section on the disused Waterford-Dungarvan line, there is brief mention of 'Administritive Delays' in transfering ownership of the alignment from CIE to the County Council. Although this could be just something minor, ...this could also be due to something far more serious that could 'de-rail' any potential greenway project here.

    HeritageRailway's description of the process for CIE to abandon and transfer ownership of old alignments to a CC, mentions that ajoining land-owners essentially get first-dibs on the property. I can imagine possible situations where a land-owner may actually take up that offer and thus truncate the entire greenway.

    Yes as per usual I don't think there will be much joined up thinking on this one - unless some legislation comes into place to make sure these things can happen quickly. How for example would we possibly cope with the idea of adjacent greenways alongside tracks (see sustrans links posted earlier in this thread - which show cycle tracks running alongside rail lines - with a fence between the two) - Pity this didn't happen on the Ennis Athenry line as there was room and it would have been a great long distance cycle track and of course much more cost effective to put in place as they did the new line with work taking place in tandem (again complete lack of joined up thinking), if this kind of joint rail and cycleway happened who would "own" the cycleway the local council or CIE properties. ON this issue it would also be great way of getting tourists to use the line - take the train one way cycle/walk back the other way. Alas we don't think this way.


  • #25
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,720 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Just on this (may have been mentioned but I missed it) the Department of Transport's recent National Cycling Policy Framework document did mention how they would envisage using disused railway lines as 'cycling highways'.


  • #26
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Dónal wrote: »
    Just on this (may have been mentioned but I missed it) the Department of Transport's recent National Cycling Policy Framework document did mention how they would envisage using disused railway lines as 'cycling highways'.

    donal have you got link to the document mentioned?


  • #27
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,720 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/11387-0.pdf

    There you go.


  • #28
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    In cases where farmers purchased sections of the railway couldn't the Council CPO it back? It would add a bit to cost, but CIE wouldn't have been selling to the Council for nothing and there would have been a requirement for legal cost in the straight conveyance anyway.

    One other thought - could the Transport Act 1944 be amended to allow CIE sell or lease to the Local Authority without giving dibs to the farmers?


  • #29
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,491 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    dowlingm wrote: »
    One other thought - could the Transport Act 1944 be amended to allow CIE sell or lease to the Local Authority without giving dibs to the farmers?
    Yes. Although I'm sure there'd be whinging.


  • #30
    trail man
    Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭trail man


    dowlingm wrote: »
    In cases where farmers purchased sections of the railway couldn't the Council CPO it back? It would add a bit to cost, but CIE wouldn't have been selling to the Council for nothing and there would have been a requirement for legal cost in the straight conveyance anyway.

    One other thought - could the Transport Act 1944 be amended to allow CIE sell or lease to the Local Authority without giving dibs to the farmers?
    yes that would be correct but the farmers are a tough bunch to play ball
    with and it would cost a fortune to buy it back and in most cases they would have purchased their bit of the line for a nominal amount of money they might even have built sheds or perhaps a house on it which would even complicate it more...
    realistically it should never have gone back to the farmers but irish politics is all about who makes the most noise without the council using its brains and using long term planning considerations in the past but that today is somewhat changing..


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  • #31
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,555 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Some if not all the lines CIE sold off have sell-back clauses on them; its extremely foolish to build a structure on land with a sell back covenant against it... Most former trackbed seems just to be used for access.


  • #32
    HeritageRailway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40 ✭HeritageRailway


    dowlingm wrote: »
    In cases where farmers purchased sections of the railway couldn't the Council CPO it back? It would add a bit to cost, but CIE wouldn't have been selling to the Council for nothing and there would have been a requirement for legal cost in the straight conveyance anyway.

    One other thought - could the Transport Act 1944 be amended to allow CIE sell or lease to the Local Authority without giving dibs to the farmers?

    In cases whereby a local community has proposed a walking path along a railway bed, there has been not generally been issues with landowners not granting access for a path. By and large, it has generally been done on a leased basis; purchasing land banks being only suitable for projects that have a definitive long term lifetime given the costs. For the few walkways we have in Ireland, talk of CPO's and amending laws is very much getting ahead of ones self and is far more costly in the long run; try and approach this idea of paths with the feet on the ground first off :)
    MYOB wrote: »
    Some if not all the lines CIE sold off have sell-back clauses on them; its extremely foolish to build a structure on land with a sell back covenant against it... Most former trackbed seems just to be used for access.

    Very few lines had any sell back clauses attached to them as CIE only disposed of closed lines that didn't do the business to justify staying open and didn't have any future. Oold lines tended only to be of use for land access and are still used as such; part of the GNR line at Ballyhaise and the SLNC line at Florencecourt are now a public road.


  • #33
    Winters
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    Nearer to Dublin, the old Harcourt Street line from the Sandyford Luas depot to the proposed Carrickmines stop would be a good stretch to convert to 2-way cycle path plus footpath.


  • #34
    trail man
    Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭trail man


    HeritageRailway wrote: »
    In cases whereby a local community has proposed a walking path along a railway bed, there has been not generally been issues with landowners not granting access for a path. By and large, it has generally been done on a leased basis; purchasing land banks being only suitable for projects that have a definitive long term lifetime given the costs. For the few walkways we have in Ireland, talk of CPO's and amending laws is very much getting ahead of ones self and is far more costly in the long run; try and approach this idea of paths with the feet on the ground first off :)



    Very few lines had any sell back clauses attached to them as CIE only disposed of closed lines that didn't do the business to justify staying open and didn't have any future. Oold lines tended only to be of use for land access and are still used as such; part of the GNR line at Ballyhaise and the SLNC line at Florencecourt are now a public road.

    well said you know your stuff re closed lines...
    if any readers of this thread have aspirations of developing closed lines as walkways/greenways then the southern trail people have been down the long road of dealing with cie. the county council and the biggest player in the game is the farmers each ajoining landowner has to be met and his mind put at rest as to the development of a trail and it only takes one farmer who dosent want the trail to hold things up...
    the line closed in 75 and was lifted in 89 the southern trail committee has been in existence since 89 and only in the last couple of years has the trail been developed... its a minefield but well worth the effort


  • #35
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    trail man wrote: »
    well said you know your stuff re closed lines...
    if any readers of this thread have aspirations of developing closed lines as walkways/greenways then the southern trail people have been down the long road of dealing with cie. the county council and the biggest player in the game is the farmers each ajoining landowner has to be met and his mind put at rest as to the development of a trail and it only takes one farmer who dosent want the trail to hold things up...
    the line closed in 75 and was lifted in 89 the southern trail committee has been in existence since 89 and only in the last couple of years has the trail been developed... its a minefield but well worth the effort

    It is somewhat depressing to read how long these things take - due to a combination of having to get all the right bodies on board, the issue of adjacent farmers - although on this one if the right of way is effectively already owned by the state through CIE I cannot see the major hold up re farmers on any of these projects; it simply should not be allowed; etc etc: I would be willing to put some time and personal energy into campaigning for a programme of cycle/walkways/grenways along various routes - and there are many that could be developed throughout the country but if one is to run into the normal Irish slurry of slow down political and local agendas and civil service bodies writng meaningless strategy papers and with god knows how many fingers in the pie and opinions to be garnered and enquiries to be had - about something as eminently simple as a footpath along an existing right of way, which is for the benefit if all in society - then as a citizen giving your own time you wonder is it worth the personal sacrifice. There are thousands of people here in Ireland willing to give their time to be involved in projects that greenways could create all over Ireland but if it means the usual - slow slow slow progress and too much heed given to every gob****e who opposes such things with no consideration of the greater good of society then any enthusiasm will be wiped away. It is a mailaise we face as a society ...now what has this got to do with greenways???? Quite a lot I think.

    Well done to the southern trail group BTW.


  • #36
    Rawr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭Rawr


    westtip wrote: »
    It is somewhat depressing to read how long these things take - due to a combination of having to get all the right bodies on board, the issue of adjacent farmers - although on this one if the right of way is effectively already owned by the state through CIE I cannot see the major hold up re farmers on any of these projects; it simply should not be allowed; etc etc: I would be willing to put some time and personal energy into campaigning for a programme of cycle/walkways/grenways along various routes - and there are many that could be developed throughout the country but if one is to run into the normal Irish slurry of slow down political and local agendas and civil service bodies writng meaningless strategy papers and with god knows how many fingers in the pie and opinions to be garnered and enquiries to be had - about something as eminently simple as a footpath along an existing right of way, which is for the benefit if all in society - then as a citizen giving your own time you wonder is it worth the personal sacrifice. There are thousands of people here in Ireland willing to give their time to be involved in projects that greenways could create all over Ireland but if it means the usual - slow slow slow progress and too much heed given to every gob****e who opposes such things with no consideration of the greater good of society then any enthusiasm will be wiped away. It is a mailaise we face as a society ...now what has this got to do with greenways???? Quite a lot I think.

    Well done to the southern trail group BTW.

    Well put, both Trail Man and WestIp.

    It is indeed somewhat distrubing to think, that such a simple to implement concept, with such a positive potential impact, could endure enough resistance to delay it for over a decade.

    In a sweeping (and probably unfair) generalisation, I believe that much of this is down to local land owners. It may very well be the case that several may not want Joe Public anywhere near their land, let alone on a public byway that either borders or cuts through that land. Thus blocking a Greenway would serve this potential agenda.

    In the bigger picture of things, one may see the desire to enjoy Ireland's countryside as a tug-of-war between those who wish to use it, and those who wish to own it and bar all others. I seem to remember hearing of several coastal walkways south of Bray Head becoming inaccessable due to the efforts of land-owners. (I'm afraid I have no references to that, and I do not know what the result was there...) I am of course, painting with the same brush here, and there are no doubt land-owners out there who have no problems with Greenways or trails comming near their land.

    However, I feel that there are enough objectionable land-owners in this country, to present major headaches to many Greenway projects. I feel that legislation does need to be modified to ensure continious Greenway access is assured, from point A to point B, regardless of potential objection to the use of public land. Essentially, Greenways should be treated as public highways, however with bikes instead of cars or trains.


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  • #37
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭serfboard


    trail man wrote: »
    well said you know your stuff re closed lines...
    if any readers of this thread have aspirations of developing closed lines as walkways/greenways then the southern trail people have been down the long road of dealing with cie. the county council and the biggest player in the game is the farmers each ajoining landowner has to be met and his mind put at rest as to the development of a trail and it only takes one farmer who dosent want the trail to hold things up...
    the line closed in 75 and was lifted in 89 the southern trail committee has been in existence since 89 and only in the last couple of years has the trail been developed... its a minefield but well worth the effort

    Thanks for this post ... and to add to this discussion I went looking for their website - it's at http://www.southerntrail.net/.


  • #38
    HeritageRailway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40 ✭HeritageRailway


    In fairness, it would also take a long time if you to build a walkway or road on fresh land. There will be many years of research involved in planning a project like this, and given that it would be done by locals as a voluntary basis, it follows that it won't progress as fast as a roadway or other public project that has professional staff employed on it, along with a pressing need for same. Not to say that it will always take a long time but the general experience throughout Europe is for a drawn out process.
    westtip wrote: »
    It is somewhat depressing to read how long these things take - due to a combination of having to get all the right bodies on board, the issue of adjacent farmers - although on this one if the right of way is effectively already owned by the state through CIE I cannot see the major hold up re farmers on any of these projects; it simply should not be allowed; etc etc: I would be willing to put some time and personal energy into campaigning for a programme of cycle/walkways/grenways along various routes - and there are many that could be developed throughout the country but if one is to run into the normal Irish slurry of slow down political and local agendas and civil service bodies writng meaningless strategy papers and with god knows how many fingers in the pie and opinions to be garnered and enquiries to be had - about something as eminently simple as a footpath along an existing right of way, which is for the benefit if all in society - then as a citizen giving your own time you wonder is it worth the personal sacrifice. There are thousands of people here in Ireland willing to give their time to be involved in projects that greenways could create all over Ireland but if it means the usual - slow slow slow progress and too much heed given to every gob****e who opposes such things with no consideration of the greater good of society then any enthusiasm will be wiped away. It is a mailaise we face as a society ...now what has this got to do with greenways???? Quite a lot I think.

    Well done to the southern trail group BTW.


  • #39
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Article from Times on line wrote:
    Ireland's old railways to become cycle routes
    Government earmarks several for conversion to fuel tourism boom

    Stephen O'Brien wrote in the Sunday Times on June 28th:


    The Irish government wants to fuel the boom in walking and cycling tourism by converting dozens of disused railway lines into cycle paths.

    Eamon Ó Cuív, the rural affairs minister, has invited communities living along the most scenic former rail routes, including the famous West Clare Railway, to convert them into tourist cycle paths using the annual €85m rural development fund.

    The West Clare line stretches 50 miles from Ennis around the Burren rock formation to Kilkee on the Atlantic coast and Kilrush on the Shannon estuary. It is typical of the type of route Ó Cuív believes could be surfaced and signposted as cycle paths.

    “We have so many spectacular, old, abandoned railway lines,” he said. “The two that come to mind are the one through the Barnesmore gap, and the one to Caherciveen from Farranfore in Co Kerry, which tracks half of the Ring of Kerry.”

    The number of walking tourists visiting Ireland surged from 168,000 in 2003 to 517,000 last year and Ó Cuív believes the influx can be increased further.

    He includes the old Westport-Achill Island railway line in Co Mayo, a long-abandoned Galway-Clifden route through Connemara, and sections of the old Limerick-Tralee line as suitable for conversion. The former Tralee-Dingle line is another that could be targeted by local rural development groups, as is the former line from Cork city through west Cork.

    Tony Boyd, chief executive of Iron Donkey, an Irish cycle tourism company, welcomed the minister’s suggestion. He said: “Old railway lines are perfect because the terrain is gradual and they are not accessible to traffic.

    “That is the sort of cycling that families are looking for because you can start with children as young as three or four.”

    Boyd added that Ireland’s scenery and reputation for friendliness already placed it in the top 10 cycle-touring destinations worldwide.

    Ó Cuív said most abandoned railway lines passed back into the hands of farmers and landowners decades ago and local Leader (rural development) groups would have to negotiate to secure rights.

    After a difficult start in establishing a national walks scheme, negotiation secured a series of hiking pathways and there are now 182 approved walks. In return for granting rights and agreeing to perform maintenance, farmers can get an annual fee from the state ranging from €725 to €1,900.

    .

    Hopefully this will be taken up and acted upon, this will be great news for walking and cycling tourism if it happens. Lets add the northern section of the wrc to it as well. I know from discussions with Eamon O'Cuiv he is right behind this idea, think I will put this article in the infamous WRC thread as well!

    See the article here: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6591558.ece?Submitted=true


  • #40
    Rawr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭Rawr


    Good stuff, lets hope they actually follow through.

    If they actually pull of a Westport to Achill greenway via the old rail alignment, I for one will over there with my bike!


  • #41
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,491 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8153708.stm
    GP campaign against transit route

    A group of GPs in east Belfast have asked Transport Minister Conor Murphy to reconsider developing a rapid bus transit line along the Comber Greenway.

    The 25 doctors said they feared the greenway could be damaged if the bus system goes ahead as planned.

    They have written to Mr Murphy asking him to reconsider the plan.

    Spokesman John Kyle said the greenway was a popular resource which provided significant health and environmental benefits to the area.

    "The greenway has been a huge success in east Belfast and the residents here really have enjoyed it enormously and benefitted from it enormously," he said.

    "Given the fact that we are facing what people talk about as an obesity and diabetes time bomb, and the need to integrate exercise into our lifestyle, this seems to us an ideal incentive to encourage people in east Belfast to be more active.

    "The Department of Regional Development describe the greenway as seven miles of traffic free tranquillity, if you have buses racing up and down then it loses a huge amount of its attractiveness and its benefit."


    'Recommended route'

    A spokeswoman for the department said a report by independent consultants in 2008 had recommended the greenway route as the best place to develop the transit line.

    "Rapid transit division within the Department for Regional Development are currently moving into the preliminary design stage of the project and are examining all the route options to confirm the findings of the strategic outline case," she said.

    "At present they are carrying out the necessary on-site surveys.

    "The preliminary design plans will form the basis of the public consultation stage when everyone will have an opportunity to view the design and raise any concerns they may have."


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  • #42
    Rawr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭Rawr


    I have to say, I'm a little torn reading that.
    In one part, it really sucks that this greenway is essentially being turned into a QBC.

    However on the other side of the coin, one of main reasons I support the idea of Greenways, is that of alignment protection.Although this isn't a re-built rail-line it's still intended for public transport.

    I feel that, if greenways are to actually be re-used again for transit, a condition must be placed upon them that the greenway itself will still be provided for (with the pathway merely shifted to beside the track/qbc).


  • #43
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,491 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Rawr wrote: »
    I have to say, I'm a little torn reading that.
    In one part, it really sucks that this greenway is essentially being turned into a QBC.
    It would be a dedicated busway, not a Dublin style QBC.


  • #44
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Victor wrote: »
    It would be a dedicated busway, not a Dublin style QBC.

    And I bet the GPs would still complain if it was a train or a tram.


  • #45
    trail man
    Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭trail man


    its a bit of a dilema for sure...
    but i think that in the republic we have nothing to worry about on that score as the goverment and county councils are bust and they will not be investing in any sort of infrastructure programme for a long time to come...The wheel has fallen off the wagon here and with less cars an buses on our roads maybe people will see the light and get on their bikes and check out irelands wonders... The southerntrail would be a good start..
    :)


  • #46
    Rawr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭Rawr


    I've decided to bump this old topic, in lieu of what's happening over at the WRC thread from which this was conceived.

    It does appear very likely, that the Western Rail Corridor, North of Athenry, will not go ahead.

    With that very certain possibility in mind, the Burma Road and all of the allignment to Claremorris, is up for potential use as a greenway. I still believe that this would make an cycling amenity that would trump up a large amount local and tourist use.

    Regardless of likely resistance from West On Track, I am hopeful that this is the way things will go for the old alignment.


  • #47
    Hungerford
    Registered Users Posts: 912 ✭✭✭Hungerford


    Rawr wrote: »
    It does appear very likely, that the Western Rail Corridor, North of Athenry, will not go ahead. With that very certain possibility in mind, the Burma Road and all of the allignment to Claremorris, is up for potential use as a greenway.

    I wouldn't mind if the Burma Road was turned into a cycleway but I think it's utterly premature to do embark on such a course of action between Athenry and Claremorris.

    That line has a reasonable amount of potential as part of a Galway commuter rail network [the stretch to Tuam] and for future freight use.

    That potential is removed if you spend a fortune to turn it into a cycleway - that said, the idea of cycleways and greenways as a means of preserving rail alignments is a sound one as it reduces the costs of potential reinstatements.

    I bet the government wishes that Clonsilla to Navan had been converted to a cycleway in the 1960s instead of sold off to farmers for a pittance.


  • #48
    Rawr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭Rawr


    Hungerford wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind if the Burma Road was turned into a cycleway but I think it's utterly premature to do embark on such a course of action between Athenry and Claremorris.

    That line has a reasonable amount of potential as part of a Galway commuter rail network [the stretch to Tuam] and for future freight use.

    That potential is removed if you spend a fortune to turn it into a cycleway - that said, the idea of cycleways and greenways as a means of preserving rail alignments is a sound one as it reduces the costs of potential reinstatements.

    I bet the government wishes that Clonsilla to Navan had been converted to a cycleway in the 1960s instead of sold off to farmers for a pittance.

    Allignment protection is one of the merits of Greenways that I like. Agreed, that Athenry - Claremorris should never be written off as a rail-route, but in the meantime, the alignment is not being used for anything.

    I wonder (not knowing much about Rail engineering) is it possible to construct a pathway, while at the same time doing the foundation-work necessary for future sleepers/tracks?

    If that was possible, perhaps that would make it easier to construct a future line, while at the same time, providing something that could be used in the meantime.


  • #49
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Hungerford wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind if the Burma Road was turned into a cycleway but I think it's utterly premature to do embark on such a course of action between Athenry and Claremorris.

    That line has a reasonable amount of potential as part of a Galway commuter rail network [the stretch to Tuam] and for future freight use.

    That potential is removed if you spend a fortune to turn it into a cycleway - that said, the idea of cycleways and greenways as a means of preserving rail alignments is a sound one as it reduces the costs of potential reinstatements.

    I bet the government wishes that Clonsilla to Navan had been converted to a cycleway in the 1960s instead of sold off to farmers for a pittance.

    Hungerford - I think you pretty much know my views on this one from the WRC thread - and BTW thanks to RAWR for resurecting this thread - it is a worthwhile point of separate discussion away from the marathon of the wrc thread!

    I think the post I made on that thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62960952&postcount=2734

    Really was to say - Look at what can be achieved with effort, Railway and Greenway running parallel.

    The post featured the photograph of the folks walking beside the railway would be a good one for WOT to adopt for the Athenry - Tuam/Claremorris section to give added value to the whole proposition.

    The Sustrans report on different types of greenways - link below is the document to reference - If WOT adopted this as the preferred way of developing this line they would be onside with a lot more people; they would get their railway - the rest of us would get our greenway. The Greenway would be a huge benefit in pushing up passenger numbers on the line.

    http://www.sustransconnect2.org.uk/r...elines%206.pdf go to section 6.2 to again see exactly what is achievable.


  • #50
    unit 1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 549 ✭✭✭unit 1


    Westport Quay under construction. Newport Mulranny resurfacing almost complete i think.An excellent idea but beware idiots on quads methinks.


  • #51
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    If they had gone with light rail on the Greenway they could have covered the tracks with sod as in Paris to integrate better with the surroundings and used the electrical overhead poles to provide lighting for evening uses. But Wrightbus wouldn't make any money from that!


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