Dublin city centre to have 30kph speed limit from Jan 31 2010

Victor · 08-10-2009 7:03pm

gurramok wrote: »

What have you got against the Gardai parking their cars?

I merely wish that they would set a good example by obeying the law.

As a pedestrian, I was nearly hit twice last week by cyclists breaking red lights. I shouted 'red light' in front of everyone at one fella out of frustration.

Understandable.

The lights are timed at junctions where side roads and less important roads instantly stop the main road traffic when a vehicle appears causing said congestion.

If they timed the lights to make traffic on said side roads wait a couple of minutes for a green light, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

These are designed such that:

1. The main road has a green light by default.
2. A vehicle approaching from a side road will get a "quick" green light for a short period of time.
3. In the next few minutes subsequent vehicles approaching from the side road will have a longer wait for a green light and then will get a green light for a short period of time.

If you stand at Rathmines Bridge at night (not so obvious during the day), you can see all the way to Tesco and all the lights are green - four traffic lights and three pedestrain crossings. These only go red red there is demand from the side road.

And the major cause of congestion in Rathmines? Too many cars during rush hour and nuisance parking outside rush hour.

As a cyclist it must be frustrating for you too when you stop at red lights at these type of junctions :P

Call it a breather. The trick is to balance your speed and not race up to red lights.

Victor · 08-10-2009 8:37pm

KevR wrote: »

When I'm out walking I always try to be courteous to other pedestrians (by not pressing the button if I don't need to, see my other post about how pedestrians wishing to cross later with a green ped light will have to wait longer if I press it when I don't need it) and I try to be couteous to motorists by not walking out in front of them and by not pressing a ped crossing button when I don't need to.

It depends on the set of traffic lights. If they are standalone, they are likely to get a "quick" green man with a delay if a second attempt to cross is made within a short period of time.

Standalone pedestrain crossing.
Delay for first green man: 5 seconds
Delay for second green man: 30 seconds

With others, you may find that the second and third pedestrain phases actually come sooner than the first. Of two sets of lights I use occassionally.

Pedestrain crossing 1.
Delay for first green man: 40 seconds
Delay for second green man: 30 seconds
Delay for third green man: 20 seconds

Pedestrain crossing 2.
Delay for first green man: 45 seconds
Delay for second green man: 15 seconds

Walking or driving I want to get where I'm going in an effecient and quick manner without holding anyone else up. If only other people had a similar mindset to me, things might be a lot better for everyone.

Indeed.

Euro_Kraut · 08-10-2009 8:51pm

murphaph wrote: »

No it doesn't. It says that 80% of Wohnstrassen/Spielstrassen have a 30 limit, which is what I said-side streets are usually 30 and thoroughfares are 50/60 unless otherwise posted (for example, around schools even on thoroughfares it's almost always 30 between set times).

Indeed. You are giht. Apologies.

...and it's still 50 on Unter den Linden 8 years after that proposal was made despite the CDU losing the mayorship to the party that proposed this daft 30 limit on Unter den Linden

I realize that.

Erm, O'Connell street has a 30 limit does it not?

No its a 50 zone. Its is among the streets planned to move to a 30 zone.

Side streets should be 30, but busy thoroughfares should remain 50 in Dublin. The issues are more to do with driver and pedestrian behaviour than speed limits.

I would tend to agree with you, but I think that the savings made to traffic time by allowing traffic to go 20km/h faster over a 2 km strech that has mostly buses and taxis is negligible. The potential benefits in terms of the physical environment is much greater.

A bigger question is why we are still using the city center area as a thoroughfare. Ideally we get as many cars as possible out of city centre and onto orbital routes with higher and safer speed limits.

cyclopath2001 · 08-10-2009 9:12pm

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

Most cyclists simply don't care about red lights and just go through them at will.

Much in the same way as motorists don't care much about the 'stop on amber' rule, or speed limits which many motorists break, simply, if they disagree with them, couldn't be botherd or consider them to be 'unjust'.

More strict enforcement of the law would make life easier for vulnerable, law-abidiing citizens and reduce congestion by removing from the roads, people who just don't want to behave in a socially mature manner.

Heroditas · 08-10-2009 10:07pm

49 cyclists killed this decade in Dublin and 123 injured.
A collision with a truck is 5 times more likely to kill a cyclist than a car, the main issue being the blind spot.
90% of trucks removed from the quays due to the port tunnel.
EDIT: got this info on Prime Time tonight
Sounds like it's trucks that are the main issue.
A 10 tonne truck with a blind spot at 30kmph is still going to kill you. Ban anything with 3 axles or over during the daytime would be my solution.

DWCommuter · 08-10-2009 10:24pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Much in the same way as motorists don't care much about the 'stop on amber' rule, or speed limits which many motorists break, simply, if they disagree with them, couldn't be botherd or consider them to be 'unjust'.

More strict enforcement of the law would make life easier for vulnerable, law-abidiing citizens and reduce congestion by removing from the roads, people who just don't want to behave in a socially mature manner.

Does that include straggling junkies, renegade pedestrians and testosterone fuelled bus drivers?

cyclopath2001 · 08-10-2009 10:28pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

Does that include straggling junkies, renegade pedestrians and testosterone fuelled bus drivers?

What's a 'renegade pedestrian'?

DWCommuter · 08-10-2009 10:31pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

What's a 'renegade pedestrian'?

Similar to a cyclist that breaks lights.

cyclopath2001 · 08-10-2009 11:02pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

Similar to a cyclist that breaks lights.

Sure,let's fine them if they don't cross within 15 metres of a crossing or don't wait for a crossing signal.

But, given the points system, a bit of strict enforcement would probably mean that the average motorist would have clocked up enough points in five minutes to get put off the road, so then we won't need traffic lights. Six offences at two points each, should do it - breaking the speed limit, not indicating, failing to stop on amber, driving in a bus lane, using a handphone, and illegal overtaking.

Let's make Dublin a nicer place for everyone - leave the car at home.

HydeRoad · 08-10-2009 11:26pm

I have hundreds of thousands of miles of driving under my belt, all across Ireland, the UK and France, city, country and motorway driving. I have driven all makes and model of car, I have driven trucks, buses and coaches. I have driven buses on city service, I have driven fast express services, I have driven guided tours.

I can guarantee you, when I drive a bus across Dublin City, I am very conscious of a cyclist in front of me, or alongside me, or sneaking up my inside when I am stopped in traffic. It's a pity barely half of the hundreds of cyclists I encounter every day, are not a bit more conscious of me.

Every day I drive, I learn something new, and I am very observant on the road, partly because of years of experience, but also partly because I simply try to have pride in my driving, which is something sadly lacking in most people.

My natural reaction is to resent my high driving standards being reduced to the lowest common denominator, simply because we can't or won't try to bring UP the general driving standards of most drivers. I am being told to trundle slowly along the kerb, simply because the roads are filled with uneducated drivers who are a danger to everyone at ANY speed, because they simply can't or won't observe around them and pay attention to what they are doing.

If proper driving standards were enforced, use of indicators, road positioning, observation, visible Garda presence, the roads would be a lot safer, rather than introducing this 30kph nonsense which is unenforceable, and will contribute little or nothing to overall safety, because like everything, after a fortnight, it too will be universally ignored.

I resent the politicising of things like road safety, the preference for a politically correct soundbite over actual enforcement of the legislation that is already there, which is more than adequate to sort out these problems if it were enforced properly.

gurramok · 09-10-2009 12:01am

AMontague wrote: »

The enforcement will mainly be achieved by the traffic light sequence. Those drivers that travel at a smooth and steady 30kph will be rewarded with a run of green lights. Those that race to the next lights will be penalised by hitting red lights every time.

Is this an admittance that traffic light sequences encourage speeding? (Well you know i agree!)

markpb wrote: »

I haven't seen many junctions like that in Dublin, especially not in the city centre. Where are they?

I do work different shifts on way to work, so I work early times(no public transport available) so i do see how the lights behave in the early hours when the streets do be nearly empty.

Off-hand. Pearse st at Erne Place. Traffic always speed from the set of lights at Barrow st to beat these lights!
Also same at Pearse st/Upper Sandwidth Place. Rest of Pearse st inbound is ok though.
Western Way onto Phibsborough Road. Crazy here how the major N2 road can be held up by the appearance of a instant vehicle at Western Way turning onto Phibsborough Rd itself.

Outside the city centre, intersection of Finglas Rd and Claremont court. Laughable here as the lights seem to have a mind of there own. Finglas Rd is N2 so major priority but the lights here have a habit of stopping major traffic flows when a car comes out of that estate instantly.
The next lights ahead of that(Glasnevin ind estate) have a habit of going red when no-one is around but do not activate instantly when vehicles appear(correct).

To follow on from the gardiner st junction I mentioned earlier, the following are similar:
Portland Row at Summerhill Parade. Busy junction when everyone wakes up. It goes red when nothing is around before 7am.
Same for Abbey st onto Beresford Place before 7am. Nothing around and yet the lights go red as if timed automatically.

markpb wrote:

That could be a broken ground-loop. They can easily be damaged by dodgy road repairs and go nuts picking up cars where there are none or not picking them up at all. Also, if the data connection between the ground-loop and the ITS control centre is down, they revert to timers as a backup. Contact ITS at 1800 29 39 49 or through customerservices@dublincity.ie and ask them to look into it if you want?

Thanks for that, i'll have a go at reporting it. The next street after that at Mountjoy Sq N/Belvedere is its twin

Also, is it the same contact for when a junction sequence is changed wrongly?

If anyone knows outside the city centre, Ballyboggan road onto Ratoath Rd. Traffic used to get about a minute to cross. Now its about 7 seconds and the resultant tailbacks favours congestion in this area despite no traffic on Ratotah Rd!
Result- instead traffic moves through housing estates as a rat run to beat this new sequence.

Victor wrote: »

These are designed such that:

1. The main road has a green light by default.
2. A vehicle approaching from a side road will get a "quick" green light for a short period of time.
3. In the next few minutes subsequent vehicles approaching from the side road will have a longer wait for a green light and then will get a green light for a short period of time.

If you stand at Rathmines Bridge at night (not so obvious during the day), you can see all the way to Tesco and all the lights are green - four traffic lights and three pedestrain crossings. These only go red red there is demand from the side road.

And the major cause of congestion in Rathmines? Too many cars during rush hour and nuisance parking outside rush hour.

I don't know much about Rathmines

Why are some designed as you say and some without that type of sequence?

cyclopath2001 · 09-10-2009 8:06am

HydeRoad wrote: »

I have hundreds of thousands of miles of driving under my belt,....I can guarantee you, when I drive a bus across Dublin City, I am very conscious of ...Every day I drive, I learn something new, and I am very observant ...I simply try to have pride in my driving, ... I am being told to trundle slowly along the kerb, ....If proper driving ...rather than introducing this 30kph nonsense which is unenforceable, and will contribute little or nothing to overall safety, because like everything, after a fortnight, it too will be universally ignored.

Don't you get it? Cyclists and pedestrians don't want drivers whizzing past them or making it impossible for them to cross, no matter how proud of their driving ability the drivers might be.

Slow down and make Dublin a nicer place.

Bandit12 · 09-10-2009 8:09am

Just another law the guards will fail to implement

uberwolf · 09-10-2009 8:09am

tbh, this'll slow the cyclists more than motorists in heavy traffic

murphaph · 09-10-2009 12:43pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Don't you get it? Cyclists and pedestrians don't want drivers whizzing past them or making it impossible for them to cross, no matter how proud of their driving ability the drivers might be.

Slow down and make Dublin a nicer place.

will you be adhering to this limit?

AugustusMaximus · 09-10-2009 12:53pm

murphaph wrote: »

will you be adhering to this limit?

Sadly, only powered vehicles have to adhere to speed limits.

Although, if you ask me, I'd rather get hit by a car doing 30kph rather than a bicycle doing anywhere up to 50kph. At least a car's front end is shaped by EU regulations to be good to pedestrians in the event of a collision. Something the front end of a bike certainly isn't.

It should also be factored in that unlike a car, cyclists are much much more quiet. The chance of walkig out between cars into a cyclists path isn't as low as you'd think and has actually happened to a friend of mine.

monument · 09-10-2009 1:10pm

uberwolf wrote: »

tbh, this'll slow the cyclists more than motorists in heavy traffic

How so?

Mucco · 09-10-2009 1:11pm

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

Although, if you ask me, I'd rather get hit by a car doing 30kph rather than a bicycle doing anywhere up to 50kph. At least a car's front end is shaped by EU regulations to be good to pedestrians in the event of a collision. Something the front end of a bike certainly isn't.

Hmmm.
The average car weighs 1500kg (Ford Focus)
1500 x 30 = momentum of 45,000 kg km/h

Average bike+rider ~ 100kg
100 x 50 = 5000 kg km/h

So you'd prefer to be hit by something with a momentum 9 times more than a bike?

Cuddlesworth · 09-10-2009 1:53pm

Mucco wrote: »

Hmmm.
The average car weighs 1500kg (Ford Focus)
1500 x 30 = momentum of 45,000 kg km/h

Average bike+rider ~ 100kg
100 x 50 = 5000 kg km/h

So you'd prefer to be hit by something with a momentum 9 times more than a bike?

Considering the bike is a relativity solid surface with a lot of sharp angled pieces and a car is a smooth rounded object with years of science being placed into absorbing and minimising the impact force I'm going to have to say yes on this one.

AugustusMaximus · 09-10-2009 1:57pm

Mucco wrote: »

Hmmm.
The average car weighs 1500kg (Ford Focus)
1500 x 30 = momentum of 45,000 kg km/h

Average bike+rider ~ 100kg
100 x 50 = 5000 kg km/h

So you'd prefer to be hit by something with a momentum 9 times more than a bike?

Its pressure that matters and considering a bicycle tyre is at least 9 times narrower than a human body, you would expect the pressure from the impact to be greater with a bicycle.

You are also ignoring the fact, that although the cars momentum is greater than a bicycles, the lilihood is that a higher percentage of momentum from the car will be imprated on the pedestrian than from the bike due to the greater mass of the car in comparison to a bicycle.

A bicycle hitting a pedestrian will bring the cyclist to a stop. A car hitting a pedestrian will not bring the car to a stop.

In fact, if the car was brough to a complete stop, you would expect the hit pedestrian to take off at over 550kph after being hit. (1500kgx30kph/80kg = 562kph)

HydeRoad · 09-10-2009 2:05pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Don't you get it? Cyclists and pedestrians don't want drivers whizzing past them or making it impossible for them to cross, no matter how proud of their driving ability the drivers might be.

Slow down and make Dublin a nicer place.

50kph isn't whizzing around.

All this 30kph limit will do is criminalise the drivers who were perfectly safe at 50kph, while doing absolutely nothing about the careless drivers who would ignore either speed limit; and in the meantime, increase traffic congestion, leading to more danger, and more frustration, leading to even more danger.

murphaph · 09-10-2009 2:58pm

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

Sadly, only powered vehicles have to adhere to speed limits.

Although, if you ask me, I'd rather get hit by a car doing 30kph rather than a bicycle doing anywhere up to 50kph. At least a car's front end is shaped by EU regulations to be good to pedestrians in the event of a collision. Something the front end of a bike certainly isn't.

It should also be factored in that unlike a car, cyclists are much much more quiet. The chance of walkig out between cars into a cyclists path isn't as low as you'd think and has actually happened to a friend of mine.

yeah, I witnessed a lad being almost destroyed by a maniac cyclist here a few weeks ago. Bloke came tearing down the cycle lane (on footpath cycle track, hard to even make out as the lines were all faded) through a know residential area with loads of kids in it and the lad he hit never even heard a thing before the impact. It looked pretty nasty. Bikes can be right dangerous in the wrong hands. Amazing that a bike isn't subject to speed limits-they are over here. I was watching a police docu show last night and the cops were doing speed checks on cyclists in pedestrian zones and fining them for going more than walking pace (defined at less than 10km/h in german law). Was quite interesting to see.

MOH · 09-10-2009 3:11pm

gurramok wrote: »

How? Pedestrians don't have too long a wait to wait for the green man. You cannot expect a wait time of 10 seconds just to cross the road, that is ridicoulus. What Dublin pedestrians don't possess is patience which their continental cousins have.

Pedestrian lights are mostly always green for most lights on turning left for cars & buses even when no-one presses the traffic light button for crossing, that aids congestion.

I've come across plenty of traffic lights around Dublin where the pedestrian light never changes to green unless the button is pressed before the current stage in the sequence, even if it's currently impossible for any traffic to be passing through, which leaves pedestrians waiting through another full cycle.

I never said anything about a wait time of 10 seconds, where did you get that from?

And as for patience vs continental cousins, it's far safer to cross a road in Dublin just after the pedestrian light has gone red than just after it's gone green, you're far less likely to be hit by some moron who's accelerated through well after his light turned because he doesn't have the patience to sit through another change of lights. And when the change does come, he's probably still just sitting in traffic 50 yards up the road anyway.

AlekSmart · 09-10-2009 3:14pm

Don't you get it? Cyclists and pedestrians don't want drivers whizzing past them or making it impossible for them to cross, no matter how proud of their driving ability the drivers might be.

Slow down and make Dublin a nicer place.

Whilst Cyclopath2001`s point and plea may well be a thoroughly valid one,it does infer some form of sustainable cycle infrastructure already being in place.

Sadly and unfortunately for CP2001 and the majority of the "Active Cycling" lobby successive Central and Local Authorities have conspired to devise,plan and construct an entire raft of social infrastructure which is almost totally at varience with cycling as a viable form of transport.

It is a timeline for Fianna Fáil rule of our State and represents an equally visible trace of incompetence and greed at Urban Planning level.

Dublin in the 1950`s and 1960`s represented what would have been nirvana for anybody with the vision to plan forward.

Instead these "Proffessional" planners decided (In their own personal interest) to ignore the best practices so well proven in Holland,Belgium,Denmark and elsewhere in the then "Common Market".

Not only did they ignore what they witnessed but they actively conspired to ensure that Cycling could NEVER regain its place as a viable,sustainable means of primary transport.

The methodologies apparent in the planning and construction of Tallaght,Clondalkin,Swords and Ballybrack all focused completely upon private car use for ALL primary commuting to the detriment of EVERY other mode including Cycling,Buses,Trains,Trams each of which still struggles in 21st Century Ireland to make an impression on the public regard.

None of the "New Towns" had even a nod in the direction of the Bicycle for their internal commuting never mind any intention of facilitating its greater useage as a general commuting tool.

The reality of 4 decades of selfish,semi-criminal incompetent planning has left modern Ireland now lying in a pile of rubble akin to Berlin in 1945...the only difference is how the Germans planned and constructed their resurgence.

It`s difficult to envisage how a rare oul Dub,newly ensconced in a 3 bed "luxury" semi-d in Kilmainhamwood,Portlaoise,Drogheda or Gorey can be encouraged to consider cycling for even portion of their daily commute.....we simply don`t rate it and thats that !!

I really do wish CycloPath 2001 well in this endeavour but I fear its going to be an uphill struggle worthy of Lance Armstrong at his best !!

cyclopath2001 · 09-10-2009 5:44pm

murphaph wrote: »

will you be adhering to this limit?

I will drive my bicycle within the law, showing reasonable consideration for others, as usual.

aleksmart wrote:

It`s difficult to envisage how a rare oul Dub,newly ensconced in a 3 bed "luxury" semi-d in Kilmainhamwood,Portlaoise,Drogheda or Gorey can be encouraged to consider cycling for even portion of their daily commute.....we simply don`t rate it and thats that !!

I think we have to create the kind of city we want and let the long distance commuters go figure. We can't just give in and allow our urban spaces to be over-run by selfish motorists. What, next, pave over the parks to make car-parking for the rest of the country?

AlekSmart · 09-10-2009 6:26pm

I think we have to create the kind of city we want and let the long distance commuters go figure. We can't just give in and allow our urban spaces to be over-run by selfish motorists.

Quite so Cyclopath2001,but the greatest difficulty here is the definition of "WE"...?
The total abdication of responsibility which our elected political leaders engaged in for two complete decades ensured that some of the worst-possible Urban-Planning decisions were taken in the full knowledge of their inadvisability.

Time after Time Councils,Corporations and associated administrative bodies ignored their own Professional Planners and proceeded with madcap schemes purely to allow the ongoing enrichment of a clique of developers and landowners.

At no point in all of this did these administrators even nod towards sustainability,desirability or even commonsense...they saw only MONEY and the status it might bring them.

Thus today we have our cities stagnating at their centres whilst surrounded by satellite communities now facing disconnection as public transport options are eliminated at the same time as individual prosperity is diminishing rapidly.

Even with the Satellite Towns our Administrators could`nt bring themselves to incorporate a tad of Public Transport options...No....best to widen the roads and toll the motorways with no point other than raising funds to "compensate" the developers for their percieved "risk"...what nonsense !!

We need to perserve our Urban-Spaces sure enough,but not as the planners left them to us.

Experience has taught me that any development map upon which I saw the words "Public Open Space" was best avoided as it invariably meant a soace occupied each morning by the still smoking remains of other residents stolen automobiles or the twisted sculptures of vandalised childrens play equipment.

Even now,as we are seeing with NAMA,the administrative focus is on RE starting the entire nonsensical charade and alowing further "gains" to be made by the Property Sector......Truly Ireland is reborn

HydeRoad · 09-10-2009 8:15pm

And all the while, silly little pieces of two-bit meaningless legislation like this 30kph nonsense are drip fed, with absolutely no purpose in reality except some wistful hope that a bit of short term spin can be gained, that these self same authorities can be 'seen' to be 'doing something' as opposed to actually doing anything long term and constructive about the underlying rot.

murphaph · 09-10-2009 9:42pm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

I will drive my bicycle within the law, showing reasonable consideration for others, as usual.

Will you keep your bike under 30km/h though?

cyclopath2001 · 09-10-2009 10:01pm

murphaph wrote: »

Will you keep your bike under 30km/h though?

Yes, Why not?

Carawaystick · 09-10-2009 10:27pm

I didn't think cyclists had to obey speed limits?

cyclopath2001 · 10-10-2009 8:55am

Carawaystick wrote: »

I didn't think cyclists had to obey speed limits?

They can't be charged with breaking the speed limit regulations.

Just like all drivers, they must drive with reasonable care and consideration for others.

So, given the circumstances around town, that usually means less than 30kph.

prodigal_son · 10-10-2009 12:36pm

Why dont they enforce laws that require cyclists to obey traffic lights, make them cycle in single file, its illegal to under or overtake where it will cause a car to alter its position.

Importantly teach them to signal, and maybe how to cycle in a straight line and that swerving to miss a bump in the road, is possibly a dangerous thing.

Make people in the city responsible for themselves, give them tickets for walking out in front of traffic, make it their fault if they are hit while walking out into traffic. This would be a bigger cash cow than a 30kph speed limit.

Imagine new york if they lowered the speed limit and took away the j walking fine, it would be a dangerous dangerous place, with people like in dublin randomly walking out in front of traffic knowing if they are hit its the drivers fault, and knowing nothing will happen them if a guard sees them, Its a disgrace.

This blind approach that the driver is always in the wrong, is unfair, and 50kph is fine speed limit for dublin, just reduce it on certain roads, like is already the case.

spacetweek wrote: »

Don't agree. Whatever about Germany, in my experience all European capitals where I've noted the speed limit, it was 30km/h.

This is because, unless otherwise signposted the limit is 50, so you assume its 50, then you see a speed limit sign at 30 and reduce speed to 30 for that road.

When you visit the place, and you only see 30 speed limit signs, you assume the speed limit is 30, when its 50, except where marked.

So unless every single street in every city in europe has the 30kph marked, then its not fair to say that the speed limit in europe is 30kph.

In parts of france, in cities at night time, all the lights turn flashing amber, so you slow down for intersections and just use your brain instead of having people sitting at red lights with no traffic around, They have 50kph speed limits, but their attitude is so different that in busy places they use their brain and slow down, and the people rarely just walk out infront of a car they can see coming.

In Ireland they run out, and when infront of the car, start walking :eek:

cyclopath2001 · 10-10-2009 1:50pm

prodigal_son wrote: »

Why dont they enforce laws that require cyclists to obey traffic lights,

They do, but not enough. Much the same as motorists not stopping on amber. There's scope for improvement.

prodigal_son wrote: »

make them cycle in single file,

This is only legally required when overtaking parked vehicles. Indeed we should not allow vehicles to park on the street as they're causing an obstruction and forcing cyclists into the path of other traffic.

prodigal_son wrote: »

its illegal to under or overtake where it will cause a car to alter its position.

That would mean that they'd also have to enforce the same rules for motorists.

prodigal_son wrote: »

Importantly teach them to signal,

Perhaps motorists could lead by example?

prodigal_son wrote: »

Make people in the city responsible for themselves, give them tickets for walking out in front of traffic,

That's not illegal if there is no pedestrian crossing within 15 metres. Traffic must give way once a pedestrian has started to cross. Reducing the speeds will make it easier for moroists to give way and for pedestrians to find a safe gap in traffic and start crossing.

prodigal_son wrote: »

In Ireland they run out, and when infront of the car, start walking :eek:

What makes you think that car drivers have priority over pedestrians?

Dublin city centre to have 30kph speed limit from Jan 31 2010

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