Learning Jazz Standards on Guitar

YYZ · 01-05-2015 10:19pm #1

Hello everyone, just had a question for anyone here who's a jazz musician. I'm learning jazz guitar and I'm learning my first jazz standard, Autumn Leaves. My question is is there any good way to know when it's time to finish learning it and move onto another jazz standard? I've been playing guitar for years and always make the mistake of finishing up with a piece of music when it needs more practice, however I don't want to go to the other extreme and spend much too long on a piece of music when I could be learning more. Also how long would most jazz musicians practice a day? At the moment I'm practicing two hours a day. Thanks very much for any advice.

Rigsby · 02-05-2015 10:21am

YYZ wrote: »

My question is is there any good way to know when it's time to finish learning it and move onto another jazz standard?

A great way would be to record yourself playing along to a jam track of Autumn Leaves (or whatever track you are working on). Like the camera....the recorder never lies.

When you listen back, if it sounds good to you, then move on. Even if it is not quite as good as you wished, I'd still move on and come back to it.

Sometimes constantly plugging away at something can be counter productive, but if left for a while, when you come back to it, you then hear it with "fresh" ears. Spending a small amount of time on a regular basis is better than hours at one sitting.

As for recorders, there are many good small hand held ones. I use a "Zoom H1" which I bought in Dublin for around €100. Great microphones on it, for the price. A good investment IMO.

Best of luck.

http://www.goodwinsmusic.ie/home_recording/zoom_h1_handy_digital_recorder_

YYZ · 02-05-2015 7:11pm

Thanks for your help. One other question, what would you say is the best way to go about learning to improvise on the standards, both making subtle changes to the original melody and improvising new melodies over the chord structure? Is it better to move onto another standard as soon as I can play Autumn Leaves note for note, or should I wait until I can improvise on Autumn Leaves?

Rigsby · 02-05-2015 9:16pm

YYZ wrote: »

Thanks for your help. One other question, what would you say is the best way to go about learning to improvise on the standards, both making subtle changes to the original melody and improvising new melodies over the chord structure? Is it better to move onto another standard as soon as I can play Autumn Leaves note for note, or should I wait until I can improvise on Autumn Leaves?

I'm not an expert on music theory or playing jazz, but I dont see any reason to move away from Autumn Leaves until you know it so well that you can do anything you want with it, including improvising. Autumn Leaves is ideal to start with, because compared to other standards it is fairly basic.

I think a few lessons (even half a dozen) from a teacher specializing in jazz would be money well spent. It would get you off to a good start, after which you could go it alone again if you wished.

Just my 2c worth.

YYZ · 02-05-2015 10:30pm

Been learning with a jazz instruction DVD for a good few months. It's the longest I've ever managed to stick with something on the guitar, been playing since I was thirteen but I'd always lose focus. But I think I should be ok to stick with this, the practice sessions have become such a big part of my routine I can't even imagine not doing them.

Rigsby · 03-05-2015 9:39am

YYZ wrote: »

Been learning with a jazz instruction DVD for a good few months. It's the longest I've ever managed to stick with something on the guitar, been playing since I was thirteen but I'd always lose focus. But I think I should be ok to stick with this, the practice sessions have become such a big part of my routine I can't even imagine not doing them.

If the DVD works for you and you feel you are learning from it, that's great. However, IMO you can learn more in a week from a teacher, than three months on your own via books, DVD's etc. With a teacher, you get to ask (and receive an answer to...) the questions you are asking here, where as obviously a book or CD cant answer your questions. Plus, in a genre as complex as jazz, there will always be lots of questions.

Best of luck with it.

jooksavage · 03-05-2015 10:09am

Rigsby wrote: »

If the DVD works for you and you feel you are learning from it, that's great. However, IMO you can learn more in a week from a teacher, than three months on your own via books, DVD's etc. With a teacher, you get to ask (and receive an answer to...) the questions you are asking here, where as obviously a book or CD cant answer your questions. Plus, in a genre as complex as jazz, there will always be lots of questions.

Best of luck with it.

Couldn't agree more. I initially learned the rudiments from a well-known Mel Bay book. I was no Joe Pass but I could hold my own and enjoy myself. I recently got some lessons (from a guy several years younger than me) and I only regret not getting them sooner; I'm convinced it would have gotten me to where I am much quicker. I was very dogmatic with the book, pouring hours into chord shapes that I never use now. My teacher, an astounding player, has a much looser approach and talking through it, makes jazz seem more manageable. Also theres no motivation like the encouragement of a half decent teacher/player.

YYZ · 03-05-2015 12:59pm

It does sound like a jazz teacher would make things easier, they could tell you if you are doing something wrong there and then as opposed to finding out yourself years later (and the one thing I don't want to do is waste any more time, I've been playing since I was thirteen, and am now twenty-nine, but you'd never know it because only recently did I start concentrating on one thing as opposed to hopping from one guitar technique or style to another and never learning any of them properly) The expense of a guitar teacher does put me off though, and I've heard some stories about people getting bad guitar teachers that didn't do them any good. I've got a lot to think about with regards to what to do next, thanks for the advice.

Rigsby · 03-05-2015 1:46pm

YYZ wrote: »

It does sound like a jazz teacher would make things easier, they could tell you if you are doing something wrong there and then as opposed to finding out yourself years later (and the one thing I don't want to do is waste any more time, I've been playing since I was thirteen, and am now twenty-nine, but you'd never know it because only recently did I start concentrating on one thing as opposed to hopping from one guitar technique or style to another and never learning any of them properly) The expense of a guitar teacher does put me off though, and I've heard some stories about people getting bad guitar teachers that didn't do them any good. I've got a lot to think about with regards to what to do next, thanks for the advice.

Yes, it can be a bit of a lottery to find the right teacher at an affordable price. Added to that is the fact that a great player may not turn out to be a great teacher and vice versa.

Having said the above, if you can afford even six lessons (sometimes you'll get a reduction for block bookings), I think it is worth while doing some research. At the top of this forum is a "sticky" for jazz and blues teachers. Might be worth a browse.

Another option...and the next best thing.... would be lessons via Skype. This would open up the choices for you.

YYZ · 03-05-2015 7:07pm

Yeah I might have a think about getting just six lessons, at least that won't be such a huge expenditure of money and just as importantly time. And if it goes well I can always see about getting more lessons.

Oink · 05-05-2015 1:29pm

As usual I agree with Rigsby. However while you are waiting to find a teacher, here’s a few things I can suggest you check (as mentioned above, you need to record yourself).
- - Do you use volume control to good effect in your solos (loud/soft parts)?
- - Do you make good use of various rhythm patterns, or do you mostly play quarter notes throughout the whole solo? Do you vary between “on the beat” and upbeat etc.
- - Do you make good use of phrases? Do you vary their length, or are they all kinda similar?
- - You can use various devices like palm mute, harmonics etc. to add some colour (sparingly, and when appropriate)?

Regarding how much time you should spend on a tune... If you are playing jazz, you have to really, really internalize the tune. You must be able to play it backwards in your sleep, elegantly, without effort. One possible exercise: Play the the melody with the exact rythm, but completely random notes. Let your fingers go anywhere on the fretboard, as long as the rythm is correct.
Another one: Go through the whole tune, playing the root of every chord, then the third of every chord, then the 5th, the 7th. Without looking at the sheet. Easier said than done, I can tell you that. Once you can do that, try soloing again, you should definitely hear a difference!!!

Or, find a teacher :-).

Good luck!!!

YYZ · 06-05-2015 10:33pm

Hi, as to volume control, I haven't really thought much about that yet, I'll have to get a volume pedal at some stage (I love volume swell anyway so I can use it for that as well). For now I could just use the toggle switch (I've got a volume control for each pickup.) I've been listening to Cannonball Adderley's version of Autumn Leaves and also Bill Evan's version, hoping to pick up how the chords are played and when I've that learned how the melodies and solos are played (though I'm wondering are these versions too hard for a beginner.) Though before I really give these things a try I need to get the basic version of Autumn Leaves that I'm learning perfect. Just when I think I nearly have it I'll hit a wrong note, or several wrong notes! I can't wait till I've got the basic tune down and I can start doing more interesting things with it.

Rigsby · 07-05-2015 1:42pm

YYZ wrote: »

Just when I think I nearly have it I'll hit a wrong note, or several wrong notes! I can't wait till I've got the basic tune down and I can start doing more interesting things with it.

I know the feeling regarding hitting wrong notes...when you think you have it nailed. :rolleyes:

It is important not to let frustration gain control. As I mentioned earlier, it is a good idea to move on to something else for a while and then come back to it. Playing "wrong" notes is all a part of the learning journey.

YYZ · 07-05-2015 11:44pm

I'll reach the point where I can play most of the chords or melody without looking, even being able to play it on 'auto-pilot', without even thinking about it, then all of a sudden, wrong note! But I try to keep things varied, if I find something frustrating I move onto something else for a while.

shane9689 · 11-08-2015 3:49pm

If you feel confident on a stage playing it to a crowd, then you've learnt it. However, dont get hung up on one tune forever, your playing will get better regardless what jazz tune you play, so long asyour jazz is improving. so when you go back to it again you might find youll be even better at playing it

YYZ · 13-08-2015 11:00am

I have been focusing too much on Autumn Leaves, maybe it's time to learn a new tune, don't want to be stuck on it forever!

shane9689 · 13-08-2015 12:00pm

i always Hated learning Autumn leaves haha, must be the most standard of standards and is really boring no matter how fancy you play it :P

YYZ · 14-08-2015 9:47am

I've decided to move onto 'Blue Bossa'. I've been on Autumn Leaves for a few months trying to get it perfect, but it seems I may have gone to the opposite extreme of what I did when I was younger, when I used to spend so little time on tunes I never learned them properly. Time for a new tune, for the sake of my sanity!

Learning Jazz Standards on Guitar

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