CID Requirememts

starfish90 · 03-09-2014 11:20pm #1

Hope everyone is settling back into school nicely!

Quick question about qualification for a cid: I'm currently job sharing with a teacher who plans to retire sometime within the next two years and once she has gone she will have to be replaced because of student numbers. Everyone else our department is permanent, so obviously hypothetically speaking, if I was offered her hours once she left,would the previous years I worked count towards a cid or would I have to do another three years on the full time hours?

I'm just very curious and I hear so many different things about qualifying for a cid so any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

rainbowtrout · 04-09-2014 12:59am

Is this your first year in the school?

To get a CID the years you hold must be your own in your third year in the school. So if this teacher does retire and you've done, say, 2 years on job share hours and the third year you have your own hours then you would I think be entitled to a CID.

TheDriver · 04-09-2014 2:59pm

Or because she is job share, they are obliged to fill the other half. She retires and they have enough teachers in your subject area and fill them using the PWT staff in that subject area. So it could turn either way

starfish90 · 04-09-2014 3:00pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Is this your first year in the school?

To get a CID the years you hold must be your own in your third year in the school. So if this teacher does retire and you've done, say, 2 years on job share hours and the third year you have your own hours then you would I think be entitled to a CID.

Thanks for that. I'm in my second year now, so would it mean that (if all went very well) if she was to retire next year and I was offered the hours, I'd have to do one year on her full hours before being offered a cid?

Many thanks

starfish90 · 04-09-2014 3:02pm

TheDriver wrote: »

Or because she is job share, they are obliged to fill the other half. She retires and they have enough teachers in your subject area and fill them using the PWT staff in that subject area. So it could turn either way

There definitely aren't enough teachers in our department to cover her leave, any teacher in our department is full time as it is too.

mirrorwall14 · 04-09-2014 3:17pm

Several teacher I know have got increased CIDs due to retirements/movements in departments that were not their subject in recent years Principal assigned them on tenure and catered for departmental needs as a secondary concern so there is no guarantee the hours would go to you

marymac068 · 04-09-2014 4:53pm

Hi everyone…I really need help on trying to find out some information.
There are four teachers in our school who were given CID's this September on year 3 hours. All four of us held between 10-15 hours in our year 3. We felt pressurised to take the CID as we feared someone could be redeployed into our positions.
We are now in Year 4 and all have full hours (which until Haddington road would be our CID hours)
I was told last year by ASTI that if i signed my CID last year that I could add this years hours onto my CID because the changes happened so fast and that nobody knew that year 3 hours would be used for CID. This year when I contacted my regional rep, she basically told me tough luck and I'd have to wait another 3 years for my next CID. After many phone calls and speaking to 4 people in the ASTI I found out that I can apply to the board of management if I get offered part time hours for next year and ask for these hours to be put on my CID. If they decline (which could easily be the case) I can apply to the rights commissioner to get my Year 4 hours on my CID. Has anyone ever had cases with the rights commissioner? I realise that this is a new case as Haddington road just came in but I would love to hear from anyone in the same boat and what their union has told them

faughs · 04-09-2014 5:53pm

marymac068 wrote: »

Hi everyone…I really need help on trying to find out some information.
There are four teachers in our school who were given CID's this September on year 3 hours. All four of us held between 10-15 hours in our year 3. We felt pressurised to take the CID as we feared someone could be redeployed into our positions.
We are now in Year 4 and all have full hours (which until Haddington road would be our CID hours)
I was told last year by ASTI that if i signed my CID last year that I could add this years hours onto my CID because the changes happened so fast and that nobody knew that year 3 hours would be used for CID. This year when I contacted my regional rep, she basically told me tough luck and I'd have to wait another 3 years for my next CID. After many phone calls and speaking to 4 people in the ASTI I found out that I can apply to the board of management if I get offered part time hours for next year and ask for these hours to be put on my CID. If they decline (which could easily be the case) I can apply to the rights commissioner to get my Year 4 hours on my CID. Has anyone ever had cases with the rights commissioner? I realise that this is a new case as Haddington road just came in but I would love to hear from anyone in the same boat and what their union has told them

I was awarded a CID in September 13 but it was after 3 years and I had an extra 3 hours in my fourth year so I received a new Cid in August 14 with the extra 3 hours.. I didn't apply or anything it just came automatically

rainbowtrout · 04-09-2014 6:02pm

marymac068 wrote: »

Hi everyone…I really need help on trying to find out some information.
There are four teachers in our school who were given CID's this September on year 3 hours. All four of us held between 10-15 hours in our year 3. We felt pressurised to take the CID as we feared someone could be redeployed into our positions.
We are now in Year 4 and all have full hours (which until Haddington road would be our CID hours)
I was told last year by ASTI that if i signed my CID last year that I could add this years hours onto my CID because the changes happened so fast and that nobody knew that year 3 hours would be used for CID. This year when I contacted my regional rep, she basically told me tough luck and I'd have to wait another 3 years for my next CID. After many phone calls and speaking to 4 people in the ASTI I found out that I can apply to the board of management if I get offered part time hours for next year and ask for these hours to be put on my CID. If they decline (which could easily be the case) I can apply to the rights commissioner to get my Year 4 hours on my CID. Has anyone ever had cases with the rights commissioner? I realise that this is a new case as Haddington road just came in but I would love to hear from anyone in the same boat and what their union has told them

Personally I don't think you have any comeback.

Some teachers got their CIDs automatically last year when the CID regulation changed from 4 years to 3, so it was awarded a year early when they were expecting it to be based on the 13-14 school year. If you only did your third year last year, you weren't expecting a CID in that year, so I can't see how you could have a claim to a CID based on this years hours, when it was possible you could have been let go without a CID at the end of the 13-14 academic year. That wasn't the case for the teachers who were awarded CIDs after 3 years this time last year, who were effectively getting them retrospectively.

rainbowtrout · 04-09-2014 6:03pm

faughs wrote: »

I was awarded a CID in September 13 but it was after 3 years and I had an extra 3 hours in my fourth year so I received a new Cid in August 14 with the extra 3 hours.. I didn't apply or anything it just came automatically

Ya, that was a once off agreement for teachers who got their CID last year after 3 years. I don't think it was going to be an ongoing thing from what I read about HRA.

mirrorwall14 · 04-09-2014 6:05pm

Based on the responses there is there anyone else who've heard of CIDs increased for any other reason than having the hours convert at year 3? I'm wondering if what I was told wasn't true

rainbowtrout · 04-09-2014 6:07pm

starfish90 wrote: »

Thanks for that. I'm in my second year now, so would it mean that (if all went very well) if she was to retire next year and I was offered the hours, I'd have to do one year on her full hours before being offered a cid?

Many thanks

Possibly. It can be a bit messy from job share. E.g. if a teacher goes on job share and the 11 hours created are in English, and a teacher is hired for them, then it's fairly clear cut where the hours have come from. Then in the meantime another English teacher retires who just happened to have 11 hours. Ideally the teacher that is there longer would be moved onto their own contract and the new teacher would have the job share hours - not necessarily changing the classes on the first teacher's timetable, but it's the way the hours are allocated.

Also a teacher could come back off job share and take up a different subject in the school (assuming they were in agreement with management, got a new qualification, was already qualified in multiple subjects).

Job share, if it is only one job can be very clear cut, but can also be more fluid than that

rainbowtrout · 04-09-2014 6:10pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Several teacher I know have got increased CIDs due to retirements/movements in departments that were not their subject in recent years Principal assigned them on tenure and catered for departmental needs as a secondary concern so there is no guarantee the hours would go to you

Schools have the option of increasing a teacher's CID, but plenty choose not to. They could opt to up the hours voluntarily after the CID was awarded or they could wait for another 3 years to pass, until they are obliged to, but there's nothing to stop a school awarding a CID after 3 years, increasing the teacher's hours in year 4 and 5 and dropping them back to their original CID hours in year 6.

It really depends on the school.

TheDriver · 04-09-2014 6:53pm

For clarification-how were ye pressurised to take a cid? Its an entitlement to get one as long as there are no objectionable grounds and u cant choose when u get it. Also,you have to be given first dibs on pt hours in ur subject

marymac068 · 10-09-2014 10:41am

TheDriver wrote: »

For clarification-how were ye pressurised to take a cid? Its an entitlement to get one as long as there are no objectionable grounds and u cant choose when u get it. Also,you have to be given first dibs on pt hours in ur subject

I was told that if I didn't take the CID that the school had no way of stopping me being redeployed or my hours dropping (from their already low number) next year. The ASTI told me to take it and I could add my year 4 hours onto my CID which I presumed was straight forward. Now I realise after about 5 phone calls with the ASTI (and being told on many occasions tough luck, wait another 3 years) that I have to wait till the end of this year to apply to the board of management and if refused (told by management this would happen) I'll have to go to the rights commission

maynooth_rules · 10-09-2014 12:51pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Is this your first year in the school?

To get a CID the years you hold must be your own in your third year in the school. So if this teacher does retire and you've done, say, 2 years on job share hours and the third year you have your own hours then you would I think be entitled to a CID.

Can I ask about this. Two teachers in my school got CID when in their first years they were casual substitutes. My situation is only slightly different and I didnt get one so im slightly pissed off now

UnLuckyAgain · 10-09-2014 6:33pm

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Can I ask about this. Two teachers in my school got CID when in their first years they were casual substitutes. My situation is only slightly different and I didnt get one so im slightly pissed off now

The wording of the relevant Act states that 3 years continuous service, under 2 successive contracts (and the third year must be in your own right) entitles you to a CID provided there are no valid objective grounds. So I suppose it could be possible to use year 1 as a non-contracted year to get a CID. I've never heard of it happening myself, but clearly from your post it is possible?!

If the people in question had 2 successive contracts in Year 2 and 3, with Year 3 being on their own hours, then I guess they meet the criteria?

eager tortoise · 11-09-2014 10:40am

UnLuckyAgain wrote: »

The wording of the relevant Act states that 3 years continuous service, under 2 successive contracts (and the third year must be in your own right) entitles you to a CID provided there are no valid objective grounds. So I suppose it could be possible to use year 1 as a non-contracted year to get a CID. I've never heard of it happening myself, but clearly from your post it is possible?!

If the people in question had 2 successive contracts in Year 2 and 3, with Year 3 being on their own hours, then I guess they meet the criteria?

Can I ask which Act you are referring to?

UnLuckyAgain · 11-09-2014 6:17pm

eager tortoise wrote: »

Can I ask which Act you are referring to?

Protection of Employees (Fixed Term Work) Act 2003.

Circular 0055/2008

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/department-circulars/articles/circular-article/00342009-protection-of-employees-fixed-term-work-act-2003-amendment-of-circular-letter-005520//circular-back-to/circulars-relating-to-pay-and-conditions/?tx_ttcirculars%5Badvsearch%5D=0034&cHash=fd9e84e7fb

eager tortoise · 11-09-2014 7:51pm

UnLuckyAgain wrote: »

Protection of Employees (Fixed Term Work) Act 2003.

Circular 0055/2008

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/department-circulars/articles/circular-article/00342009-protection-of-employees-fixed-term-work-act-2003-amendment-of-circular-letter-005520//circular-back-to/circulars-relating-to-pay-and-conditions/?tx_ttcirculars%5Badvsearch%5D=0034&cHash=fd9e84e7fb

Thanks a million for the link. A colleague and I were discussing this issue today and I knew I had read something here about a circular or something which referred to the 2 contract/4 year thing. Just wanted to look it up.

rainbowtrout · 11-09-2014 9:22pm

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Can I ask about this. Two teachers in my school got CID when in their first years they were casual substitutes. My situation is only slightly different and I didnt get one so im slightly pissed off now

What was your situation exactly?

UnLuckyAgain · 12-09-2014 3:39pm

eager tortoise wrote: »

Thanks a million for the link. A colleague and I were discussing this issue today and I knew I had read something here about a circular or something which referred to the 2 contract/4 year thing. Just wanted to look it up.

Now schools can offer CIDs even before the requirements are met. Majority will wait until entitlement kicks in. But that could be the case

evolving_doors · 13-09-2014 3:24pm

UnLuckyAgain wrote: »

Now schools can offer CIDs even before the requirements are met. Majority will wait until entitlement kicks in. But that could be the case

How do you mean 'before the requirements are met'... do you mean you can technically be offered a CID at the start of Yr 1?

rainbowtrout · 13-09-2014 3:56pm

Armelodie wrote: »

How do you mean 'before the requirements are met'... do you mean you can technically be offered a CID at the start of Yr 1?

You can be offered a CID at any time in your contract. School/ETB legally obliged to give you one after three years.

Vast majority of schools only give it when obliged to do so

2011abc · 13-09-2014 5:34pm

At exactly what point did the simple rule that you were permanent wholetime after two years in one school (or three in a mix of schools) cease to exist and how the hell did the unions agree to it ?!

rainbowtrout · 13-09-2014 5:50pm

2011abc wrote: »

At exactly what point did the simple rule that you were permanent wholetime after two years in one school (or three in a mix of schools) cease to exist and how the hell did the unions agree to it ?!

How far back is this supposed to reference? Because I work with a teacher that was EPT for 16-17 years before being made permanent, that was back around 2006 I think, so EPT since about 1990.

The CID thing doesn't just apply to teaching it applies to all employment sectors.

2011abc · 13-09-2014 5:59pm

Well in the early -mid 90s if you were permanent wholetime for two years in a school you got a permanent contract .

Godge · 15-09-2014 3:52pm

http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0057_2013.pdf

http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0005_2014.pdf

The above circulars are also of interest to temporary teachers, particularly paras. 25 to 28 of the second one.

CID Requirememts

Comments