Should Air Rifle Be considered firearms?

Sparks · 08-12-2014 11:25pm

Zxthinger wrote: »

I personally wouldn't like to see total deregulation of low powered air arms as there are just too many nut bags in the republic

So:

compared to the rest of the EU? I mean, we're bad, but we hardly have the highest density of nutters in europe...
...and if we did, why do we openly sell hurleys, cars, knives, medication, hammers, axes, slashhooks, bows, boxing gloves, rat poison and string?
Why isn't the rest of the EU on fire killing each other with airguns, given that they have far far looser regulations?
Who said we had to sell them like cornflakes? Hike the 1 joule limit to 16 and you still have a regulatory framework in place already, it's just different to the one we use for cartridge-based firearms.

recipio · 09-12-2014 12:29am

The idea that there would be a wave of air rifle crime following deregulation is simply not backed by any facts. In fact it feeds the paranoia of the grey suits who make this legislation most of whom wouldn't know a PCP from a springer or gas ram.
I wouldn't be against a general vetting of anybody buying their first airgun or a token licence fee but why can't we just be allowed to trade in low power airguns like every other EU country. ?

bpb101 · 09-12-2014 12:54am

recipio wrote: »

The idea that we are there would be a wave of air rifle crime following deregulation is simply not backed by any facts. In fact it feeds the paranoia of the grey suits who make this legislation most of whom wouldn't know a PCP from a springer or gas ram.
I wouldn't be against a general vetting of anybody buying their first airgun or a token licence fee but why can't we just be allowed to trade in low power airguns like every other EU country. ?

like yeah , trowing air guns out like cornflakes is not a good idea
Simple things would prevent crime

Only rdf can sell them so effectively there is something for the business to lose
18 years +
You must have a fixed abode
in store background check done by rfd( i dont see how this would be to hard)

If somebody shots a dog or cat or other domestic animal or use them for injurying an animal - jail time - im not talking about rat or vermin killing

They must be treated as a firearm. ie, same jail time
no carrying them over your shoulder down Grafton st

Sparks · 09-12-2014 12:31pm

bpb101, if you raise the 1J limit in the Act to 16J, then airguns and paintball markers would just fall into the same regulations as airsoft are in now. They wouldn't fall into an unregulated state. And the regulations for airsoft are pretty much what you're talking about, bar the background check, which the AGS wouldn't do for commercial businesses like that (seriously, it took a while for the garda vetting crowd to even agree to vet people who work with kids - and that wasn't laziness, there are serious data protection issues in the EU to worry about).

Also, if someone abuses an airsoft (or any airgun/paintball marker if you raised that limit), there are already laws covering that. You point an airsoft at someone and rob them, you get charged as though it was a real gun. Whether or not it was real doesn't matter for the court, only whether or not the person you pointed it at believed it to be real. You shoot an animal with one, you get done for animal cruelty. You carry one in a public place, you get lifted by half a dozen different laws.

And all that is in place today.

All that's required is to add one digit (a 6) in the right place in section one of the act.

bpb101 · 10-12-2014 4:39pm

Sparks wrote: »

bpb101, if you raise the 1J limit in the Act to 16J, then airguns and paintball markers would just fall into the same regulations as airsoft are in now. They wouldn't fall into an unregulated state. And the regulations for airsoft are pretty much what you're talking about, bar the background check, which the AGS wouldn't do for commercial businesses like that (seriously, it took a while for the garda vetting crowd to even agree to vet people who work with kids - and that wasn't laziness, there are serious data protection issues in the EU to worry about).

Also, if someone abuses an airsoft (or any airgun/paintball marker if you raised that limit), there are already laws covering that. You point an airsoft at someone and rob them, you get charged as though it was a real gun. Whether or not it was real doesn't matter for the court, only whether or not the person you pointed it at believed it to be real. You shoot an animal with one, you get done for animal cruelty. You carry one in a public place, you get lifted by half a dozen different laws.

And all that is in place today.

All that's required is to add one digit (a 6) in the right place in section one of the act.

Oh yeah , i know there would be auto law in places as they would be the same as airsoft guns(legally)

There would have to be certain new laws though as there would have to be a limit of how powerfully air propelled projectiles can be fired at another person. (ie how powerfully can airsoft guns be)
if it was a simple saying 16 joules is now the max, would it not be a case of it would be legal to shot people with air rifles, I know that it would be considered assault if it wasn't expected (ie in public) but at a airsoft skirmish for example

As for the background checks , yeah , your right, ags wouldnt allow that.

Sparks · 10-12-2014 4:46pm

bpb101 wrote: »

if it was a simple saying 16 joules is now the max, would it not be a case of it would be legal to shot people with air rifles, I know that it would be considered assault if it wasn't expected (ie in public) but at a airsoft skirmish for example

No, it'd still be assault if you used an air rifle (airsoft doesn't fire lead, and neither do paintball markers - which are usually around 16J). You show up on an airsoft field, and the other players are expecting you to have an airsoft replica, not a daisy break-barrel .22 air rifle. You use one of them, it'd be the same as if you showed up with a hurley and used that on the other players. They have a certain reasonable expectation that they're going to play airsoft and get hit with 6mm plastic balls, nothing else. You'd be done for assault, plain and simple.

Deaf git · 12-12-2014 8:14pm

Air Rifles are very different to airsoft in that they have a rifled barrel. Even if the power limits for airsoft were increased we wouldn't automatically have air rifles per se. But let's say common sense prevailed and air rifles were no longer classed as a firearm and made available in a controlled fashion, how long would it take for
(A) The obligatory semi hysterical idiot to screech 'Won't someone think of the children'
(B) A self professed expert to claim that air rifles like the FX resemble military weapons and are more dangerous because they are black.
(C) Some politician seeking attention whinges about 'gun culture' and maybe reverts to point (A)

Or maybe I might be pleasantly surprised.

Sparks · 12-12-2014 8:20pm

Deaf git wrote: »

Air Rifles are very different to airsoft in that they have a rifled barrel.

And in that airsoft fire 6mm hollow plastic pellets at 1 joule muzzle energy in a fully automatic mode, while air rifles shoot 4.5mm solid lead pellets at 7.5 joules muzzle energy (or higher) in a single-shot mode... and about a dozen other rather important points too

Even if the power limits for airsoft were increased we wouldn't automatically have air rifles per se.

No, but that's not what's being discussed. We're talking about raising the muzzle energy limit for the regulatory framework currently occupied only by airsoft and toy guns so that it is also occupied by air rifles, air pistols, and paintball markers.

how long would it take for
(A) The obligatory semi hysterical idiot to screech 'Won't someone think of the children'
(B) A self professed expert to claim that air rifles like the FX resemble military weapons and are more dangerous because they are black.
(C) Some politician seeking attention whinges about 'gun culture' and maybe reverts to point (A)

Depends on what's in the news at the time usually...

Zxthinger · 12-12-2014 10:41pm

Deaf git wrote: »

Air Rifles are very different to airsoft in that they have a rifled barrel. Even if the power limits for airsoft were increased we wouldn't automatically have air rifles per se. But let's say common sense prevailed and air rifles were no longer classed as a firearm and made available in a controlled fashion, how long would it take for
(A) The obligatory semi hysterical idiot to screech 'Won't someone think of the children'
(B) A self professed expert to claim that air rifles like the FX resemble military weapons and are more dangerous because they are black.
(C) Some politician seeking attention whinges about 'gun culture' and maybe reverts to point (A)

Or maybe I might be pleasantly surprised.

All hypothetical outcomes that will never happen! Irish government will ban Xmas crackers next!
The only relief you might get is a limited & defined exemption from storage SI and a lifetime/10 Year licence per gun or perhaps per person ! Thats where the roll out stops! They are never going to accept free and unrestricted access to air rifles. You'd be better served looking for something realistic that pursuing a dream!..

Sparks · 12-12-2014 11:23pm

Zxthinger wrote: »

They are never going to accept free and unrestricted access to air rifles. You'd be better served looking for something realistic that pursuing a dream!..

What everyone was saying up until 2004 wrote:

They are never going to accept pistols. You'd be better served looking for something realistic that pursuing a dream!

What everyone was saying up until 2006 wrote:

They are never going to accept shooting bodies having an official relationship with the Minister. You'd be better served looking for something realistic that pursuing a dream!

What everyone was saying up until 2007 wrote:

They are never going to accept reloading. You'd be better served looking for something realistic that pursuing a dream!

There's an old saying about how those saying something is utterly impossible should be careful not to be run over from behind by those doing it.

rsole1 · 13-12-2014 11:22am

Sparks wrote: »

There's an old saying about how those saying something is utterly impossible should be careful not to be run over from behind by those doing it.

I would get an air rifle if it was 12ft lb and no €80 licence and numerous hoops to jump through. Can you hazard a guess if / when this might happen?

Zxthinger · 13-12-2014 2:01pm

Oh Dear Sparks how I'm jilted by your agonising interpretation of "acceptance". Lol....)

Surly you impugn ones self with such nonsense.

Pistols were fought for in court! Nothing was given and nothing was accepted! and moves are a foot to shore up your so called acceptance!

Political relations are assured to any person by constitutionally established methods. However this has been at best mere lip service and at worst 'fact finding exercises' with no real outcome save for the current set of restrictive proposals. etc. Lol

Reloading was never accepted, it was always allowed! As too was the storage of the parafinala. This is explicitly demonstrated by reference to the removal of a 'lacuna' in the latests round of ags/doj proposals, which detail your perceived degree of acceptance coupled with their lack of tolerance.

And the unregulated rollout of air rifles will also fail to be accepted..

Appeasement might see limited concessions by way of methods previously set out within the thread.

Sparks · 13-12-2014 2:30pm

Zxthinger wrote: »

Oh Dear Sparks how I'm jilted by your agonising interpretation of "acceptance". Lol....)
Surly you impugn ones self with such nonsense.

Y'know, if you're going to try to be a wordy so-and-so, it helps if you can spell.
Just sayin'.

Pistols were fought for in court! Nothing was given and nothing was accepted!

Actually, offered to us on a plate in the 90s. Turned down.

Political relations are assured to any person by constitutionally established methods.

Anyone who had anything to do with this stuff from the 70s to today can tell you how wrong you are on that point. We never, ever had an official forum where we could sit down with the AGS and DoJ and everyone else on an equal footing, not until 2006.

Reloading was never accepted, it was always allowed!

Sure, the act of reloading wasn't illegal, and sure the equipment wasn't illegal to own (despite a few district court cases that were brought despite this), but it wasn't possible for everyone to have the propellant, and without that, you're not so much reloading as playing dress-up.

Also, funny thing - turns out that "not illegal" and "allowed" are not the same thing. They're not even in the same ball park.

The fact you're not willing to admit is that if the Midlands lads hadn't jumped through a dozen hoops, and spent more money than seemed sane at the time to do so, reloading in Ireland today would just be illegal, it would have been banned outright a few years back to "tidy up" the law. And it wouldn't have even generated a ripple because at the time, only the guys in the Midlands were pushing for it. The NARGC had come right out and said nobody wanted it, that it wasn't of any use for hunting, and nobody else was throwing any weight behind it at the time.

This is explicitly demonstrated by reference to the removal of a 'lacuna' in the latests round of ags/doj proposals, which detail your perceived degree of acceptance coupled with their lack of tolerance.

Maybe you should ask Grizzly about that lacuna, he looked into actually trying to use it and found it wasn't quite what you're saying it was.

And the unregulated rollout of air rifles will also fail to be accepted..

Nice to have you here Minister, how's it going?

recipio · 14-12-2014 12:52pm

To me, the lack of responsible law is a freedom denied to us - unlike the rest of the EU. Simple as that.
Its a bit like the law on metal detecting - a hobby banned outright but thriving in the UK.( And I'm willing to discuss that hot potato on any other forum )
We need to stop being so apathetic about this and like the Scottish airgunners
who have rallied against licencing start to do some effective lobbying ?

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Should Air Rifle Be considered firearms?

Comments