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Equal adoption by the end of 2014

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    #2
    qwertyabcd
    Registered Users Posts: 68 ✭✭qwertyabcd


    I agree its fantastic news in theory, however the government has form for making empty promises, and with all the elections in the next two years im not exactly holding my breath


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    #3
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,880 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    qwertyabcd wrote: »
    I agree its fantastic news in theory, however the government has form for making empty promises, and with all the elections in the next two years im not exactly holding my breath

    In all fairness this government has delivered in numerous ways up until now on lgbt rights

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #4
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Fantastic news that it's even on the table but it won't happen without a fight


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    #5
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,880 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Fantastic news that it's even on the table but it won't happen without a fight
    Hmmm... maybe true
    I dunno though. I think most of the opponents are in the Reform Alliance and that it will have the support of the majority of TDs.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #6
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,934 ✭✭✭Daith


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Fantastic news that it's even on the table but it won't happen without a fight

    When it was debated in the Dail every party supported it.

    I think it will pass without too much of an issue.

    Be prepared for the anti-equal rights brigade being very nasty all through the year and next though.


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    #7
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,880 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Daith wrote: »
    When it was debated in the Dail every party supported it.
    Em
    Adoption and marriage equality are separate issues. They are of course intertwined but technically and legislatively they are separate.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #8
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,934 ✭✭✭Daith


    mango salsa wrote: »
    Em
    Adoption and marriage equality are separate issues. They are of course intertwined but technically and legislatively they are separate.

    I'm referring to the Family and Child bill which Alan Shatter is introducing. That was brought up in the Dail and again no party objected to it.


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    #9
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,880 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Daith wrote: »
    I'm referring to the Family and Child bill which Alan Shatter is introducing. That was brought up in the Dail and again no party objected to it.
    what family and child bill? - can't find it anywhere online. I don't think Alan Shatter has bought any bill in this area before the Dail yet. In addition my understanding is that adoption is under Frances Fitzgerald.

    Maybe there was a bill debated recently but I can't find it.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #10
    Vojera
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,812 ✭✭✭Vojera


    mango salsa wrote: »
    what family and child bill? - can't find it anywhere online. I don't think Alan Shatter has bought any bill in this area before the Dail yet. In addition my understanding is that adoption is under Frances Fitzgerald.

    Maybe there was a bill debated recently but I can't find it.


    Here's a pdf of what they aim to achieve from the justice.ie website: link

    What they've proposed so far doesn't include adoption by same-sex couples, although Alan Shatter has said it will be addressed.

    It also aims to look at a lot of wider issues, such as improved paternal rights, and to lay down some sort of framework for the legal minefield that currently exists for surrogacy and assisted reproduction.

    There are parts that I feel don't go far enough (for example, I'm not on board with the fact that a father must live with a mother for at least a year before the birth of a child in order to receive automatic guardianship because it still leaves the father on the back foot) but it is a significant step in the right direction, imo, and I look forward to seeing how it turns out.


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    #11
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,880 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Vojera wrote: »
    Here's a pdf of what they aim to achieve from the justice.ie website: link

    What they've proposed so far doesn't include adoption by same-sex couples, although Alan Shatter has said it will be addressed.

    It also aims to look at a lot of wider issues, such as improved paternal rights, and to lay down some sort of framework for the legal minefield that currently exists for surrogacy and assisted reproduction.

    There are parts that I feel don't go far enough (for example, I'm not on board with the fact that a father must live with a mother for at least a year before the birth of a child in order to receive automatic guardianship because it still leaves the father on the back foot) but it is a significant step in the right direction, imo, and I look forward to seeing how it turns out.
    Yeah that bill does not address adoption so I am confused by Daiths comments above.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #12
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,934 ✭✭✭Daith


    mango salsa wrote: »
    Yeah that bill does not address adoption so I am confused by Daiths comments above.

    Gah I remember reading something from Shatter about the bill and going to Francis Fitzgerald for the adoption stuff. I'll see if I can dig it out!


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    #13
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,880 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    You see I am just not convinced an adoption bill will have no opposition. I mean I would expect opposition from reform alliance and definitely some independents. Given FFs free vote on abortion it wouldn't surprise me if that happened again and some FF tds opposed it. There may also be some FG TDs opposed.

    The senate will of course have Ronan Mullen, Fergal Quinn (almost certain he is a member of opus dei) and some ffers opposed.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #14
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,123 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    This is a bit complicated. Bear with me.

    The current position is that Irish adoption law doesn’t explicitly mention sexual orientation at all. LBGT individuals can and do adopt children in Ireland.

    The problem arises with respect to adoption by couples. Under the current Adoption Act, only a married couple can adopt, and of course same-sex couples cannot marry.

    This problem would, of course, disappear if same-sex couples could marry. Without any change at all to the Adoption Act, same-sex married couples could then adopt children, just as opposite-sex married couples can now.

    It’s said, though, that if the introduction of SSM functions in effect as the introduction of adoption by same-sex couples, this is something that the “anti” crowd will try to make an issue of in the referendum. Reportedly, for this reason the government would prefer to decouple the two issues by introducing adoption by same-sex couples ahead of any referendum on SSM.

    This is tricky, though, because it involves introducing the possibility of adoption by unmarried couples. And, given the overriding consideration that all adoption procedures, and all adoption decisions, must be taken in the best interests of the child, there would be an obvious problem with legislation that allowed for adoption by any two people at all. You would like to think that if a child is to be place with a couple for adoption, they do need to be a couple who are committed to one another by more than just the desire to co-parent a child.

    One possibility is to legislate for adoption by any couple that is (a) married, or (b) in a civil partnership. Another is to legislate for adoption by married couples, civil partners or other couples whose commitment to a permanent conjugal relationship etc etc is judged by the adoption authorities to be equivalent to the commitment of marriage or civil partnership.

    We’ll have to wait and see what the legislation on adoption says, when it’s published.


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    #15
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,934 ✭✭✭Daith


    mango salsa wrote: »
    You see I am just not convinced an adoption bill will have no opposition. I mean I would expect opposition from reform alliance and definitely some independents. Given FFs free vote on abortion it wouldn't surprise me if that happened again and some FF tds opposed it. There may also be some FG TDs opposed.

    The senate will of course have Ronan Mullen, Fergal Quinn (almost certain he is a member of opus dei) and some ffers opposed.

    There will always be TDs opposed but I can't see it being a majority tbh.


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    #16
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,880 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Daith wrote: »
    There will always be TDs opposed but I can't see it being a majority tbh.

    No - not a majority at all but a significant vocal minority who will scare monger.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #17
    ninty9er
    Registered Users Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    Doesn't matter. There are enough gay TDs and Senators to shame the rest of them into voting for it to be able to look them in the eye in the the restaurant and committee rooms.

    It also removes one of the big scaremongering sticks in a marriage equality referendum, I believe this is the primary reason it is being brought forward this year rather than at some future date.


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    #18
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,934 ✭✭✭Daith


    mango salsa wrote: »
    No - not a majority at all but a significant vocal minority who will scare monger.

    They always do. It will be worth it when the bill or bills pass :)


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    #19
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,934 ✭✭✭Daith


    http://www.thejournal.ie/shatter-child-family-bill-1290688-Jan2014/

    Yeah it's a new bill that includes joint adoption for same sex parents


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    #20
    wonderfulname
    Registered Users Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    Daith wrote: »
    http://www.thejournal.ie/shatter-child-family-bill-1290688-Jan2014/

    Yeah it's a new bill that includes joint adoption for same sex parents

    I'm just reading the general scheme of the bill now, it's so far ahead of where I expected it to be, the following, and it's gender swapped equivalent, have frankly blown me away in their provision for cohabiting couples;
    If a child is born as a result of a surrogacy arrangement with the use of human reproductive material provided by a man only, and the birth mother is declared under Head 13(9) not to be a parent, the parents of the child are the man and a person who: (a) was married to or in a civil partnership with or cohabiting in an intimate and committed relationship with that man at the time of the child’s conception, and (b) consented to be a parent of a child born as a result of a surrogacy arrangement and did not withdraw that consent before the child’s conception


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    #21
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,880 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    wonderfulname wrote: »
    I'm just reading the general scheme of the bill now, it's so far ahead of where I expected it to be, the following, and it's gender swapped equivalent, have frankly blown me away in their provision for cohabiting couples;

    I'm not a fan of Alan Shatter in many ways but he is excellent on socially liberal issues

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #22
    Lou.m
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,532 ✭✭✭Lou.m


    mango salsa wrote: »
    I'm not a fan of Alan Shatter in many ways but he is excellent on socially liberal issues

    Here here!


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    #23
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    Concur on Shatter. Rather makes a nonsense of what we laughingly call a "party system" though, doesn't it? ("Down with FF! Vote FG for... exactly the same economic policies, and an even more bizarrely incoherent range of stances on social issues!")


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