The "Border Fox" has seen the light.

Run_to_da_hills · 25-02-2008 2:08am #1

Notorious republican terrorist Dessie O'Hare is reported to have become a 'born-again Christian' The man who severed a Dublin dentist's finger with a hammer and chisel when his ransom demands weren't met is reported to be attending gospel hall meetings in south Armagh and in Co Louth.

Reliable sources have confirmed that the former INLA terrorist, who was dubbed the 'Border Fox', has attended services run by a small Protestant congregation in South Armagh in recent weeks and has professed that he has been 'saved'.

More: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/border-fox-ohare-finds-god-in-a-gospel-hall-1296654.html

Nevyn · 25-02-2008 8:27am

Thats nice, why is this here instead of polictic or humanites or the clebs forum ?

You have given no reason ? no opinion ? so what is your point ?

Run_to_da_hills · 25-02-2008 11:13am

Thaedydal wrote: »

Thats nice, why is this here instead of polictic or humanites or the clebs forum ?

You have given no reason ? no opinion ? so what is your point ?

Its an interesting topic and is very much a topic for the Christianity forum. From someone who had a notorious past, It shows no matter how bad someone can get they can still turn around and repent. If he was living in the States he could have well been on death row or put to death already. Maybe he could show an example for the rest of these guys from the various organisations both sides of the border that plaged this country for so long.

PDN · 25-02-2008 11:33am

I understand he spent quite a bit of time with an evangelical prison chaplain when he was in the clink.

Thats nice, why is this here instead of polictic or humanites or the clebs forum ?

These boards never cease to amaze me. If a prominent criminal has reportedly become a Christian then the Christianity forum seem to be a suitable place to post about it. (The clue is in the name of the forum: 'Christianity')

Nevyn · 25-02-2008 11:48am

The op never said what angle he wished to present the information in.
A post which is just a copy and past with out personal comment or opinion is frowned apon.

DinoBot · 25-02-2008 11:52am

as a "born-again" will all his previous sins be forgiven ?

Zombrex · 25-02-2008 12:03pm

As Thaedydal said this is just news.

What exactly are we supposed to be discussing?

kelly1 · 25-02-2008 12:55pm

DinoBot wrote: »

as a "born-again" will all his previous sins be forgiven ?

That is a very good question. There's no certainty unless he goes to confession. I'd be fairly sure that he'll get a lengthy sentence in Purgatory "until he has paid the last farthing".

Run_to_da_hills · 25-02-2008 1:08pm

kelly1 wrote: »

That is a very good question. There's no certainty unless he goes to confession. I'd be fairly sure that he'll get a lengthy sentence in Purgatory "until he has paid the last farthing".

The forgiveness of Dessie's past sins would be between God and Himself, I cannot see where a third party would get involved.

kelly1 · 25-02-2008 1:13pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The forgiveness of Dessie's past sins would be between God and Himself, I cannot see where a third party would get involved.

Then you have to wonder why Jesus gave the apostles the power to forgive sins and why the tradition of confessing to a priest began.

pwd · 25-02-2008 1:16pm

Protestants don't go to confession. Protestant vicars aren't considered to have any special holy powers like the ability to absolve sins and so on like Catholic priests.

kelly1 · 25-02-2008 1:18pm

pwd wrote: »

Protestants don't go to confession. Protestant vicars aren't considered to have any special holy powers like the ability to absolve sins and so on like Catholic priests.

Yes, I know. He'd have to become Catholic.

Run_to_da_hills · 25-02-2008 1:46pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Then you have to wonder why Jesus gave the apostles the power to forgive sins and why the tradition of confessing to a priest began.

Catholicism teaches that it has the power and authority to forgive people's sins. Here are a few quotes from the Catechism. (Please note that whenever the Catechism mentions the "Church," it is referring to the "Roman Catholic church")

"There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive." Pg. 256, #982
"By Christ's will, the Church possesses the power to forgive the sins of the baptized..." Pg. 257, #986

"The Church, who through the bishop and his priests forgives sins in the name of Jesus Christ." Pg. 363-364, #1448

Does the Catholic church have power to forgive sins? Let's see what the Scriptures say:

"Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7

kelly1 · 25-02-2008 2:52pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Catholicism teaches that it has the power and authority to forgive people's sins. Here are a few quotes from the Catechism. (Please note that whenever the Catechism mentions the "Church," it is referring to the "Roman Catholic church")

"There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive." Pg. 256, #982
"By Christ's will, the Church possesses the power to forgive the sins of the baptized..." Pg. 257, #986

"The Church, who through the bishop and his priests forgives sins in the name of Jesus Christ." Pg. 363-364, #1448

Does the Catholic church have power to forgive sins? Let's see what the Scriptures say:

"Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7

My question still applies i.e. why did Jesus give the apostles the authority to forgiven sins? The answer is that Jesus conferred the authority to forgive sins in God's name. It is God who does the forgiving but He does it when a priest says the words of absolution and denies forgiveness when the priest denies absolution. It is God's will that we humble ourselves to confess our sins to another human. Do you confess your sins to anybody else?

James 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another

Run_to_da_hills · 25-02-2008 3:13pm

kelly1 wrote: »

My question still applies i.e. why did Jesus give the apostles the authority to forgiven sins? The answer is that Jesus conferred the authority to forgive sins in God's name. It is God who does the forgiving but He does it when a priest says the words of absolution and denies forgiveness when the priest denies absolution. It is God's will that we humble ourselves to confess our sins to another human. Do you confess your sins to anybody else?

I see no problem discussing our transgressions and faults among fellow Christians but I still see no place for another mediator such as a priest to intervene between God and ourselves. "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" 2 Timothy 2vs5.

kelly1 · 25-02-2008 3:21pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I see no problem discussing our transgressions and faults among fellow Christians but I still see no place for another mediator such as a priest to intervene between God and ourselves. "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" 2 Timothy 2vs5.

Maybe you see no need for a mediator but as I've said already, Jesus did becuase He gave the aposltes the authority to forgive sins.

John 20:21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

Why would Jesus do this is He wanted us to confess directly to God? Do you think Jesus got it wrong, crossed wires???

Run_to_da_hills · 25-02-2008 5:43pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Maybe you see no need for a mediator but as I've said already, Jesus did becuase He gave the aposltes the authority to forgive sins. Why would Jesus do this is He wanted us to confess directly to God? Do you think Jesus got it wrong, crossed wires???

"Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." -John 20:23

John 20:23 is the verse relied upon as the strongest to support this position of the Roman Catholic and Luthern Church. This they claim is their right and power given to them by God to forgive your sins.

To obtain the correct teaching of Verse 23, (as any person who studies the Bible should know), you must compare all other Scriptures that pertain to the same subject or verse in question.

When all Scriptures pertaining to the same subject AGREE, then you have the correct teaching of that subject or verse. If not, then you have a wrong interpretation or application of the verse or subject in question. This would then lead to a false teaching perpetuated upon the unsuspecting congregation.

Since all Scripture is given by "inspiration of God" (2nd Timothy 3:16), there can be no error or contradiction in God's Word. This is why Peter declared in 2nd Peter 1:20 that "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any PRIVATE INTERPRETATION."

Anyway we are straying off topic. Back to the "Border Fox" I am glad to hear that he has made the decision to become a Christian.

kelly1 · 25-02-2008 5:54pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Anyway we are straying off topic. Back to the "Border Fox" I am glad to hear that he has made the decision to become a Christian.

Yes I'm glad too. Anyone else our there glad?

philologos · 25-02-2008 6:44pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Yes, I know. He'd have to become Catholic.

You really are set on division aren't you.

Hmm, actually priests in the Anglican tradition are considered to have the power to absolve sins during a Church service or on any other occasion. That may be due to the understanding that the Anglican Church is both Catholic and Reformed in description I guess though.

Zombrex · 25-02-2008 6:53pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Yes I'm glad too. Anyone else our there glad?

I'm not. But not sure I count, being a heathen and all

PDN · 25-02-2008 6:55pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Yes, I know. He'd have to become Catholic.

Technically he probably still is a Catholic since he was baptised as a baby and has never been excommunicated. Would this be correct?

Run_to_da_hills · 25-02-2008 6:59pm

PDN wrote: »

Technically he probably still is a Catholic since he was baptised as a baby and has never been excommunicated. Would this be correct?

Same with me

PDN · 25-02-2008 7:04pm

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm not. But not sure I count, being a heathen and all

So would you prefer it if he was still kidnapping people and cutting their fingers off?

Fanny Cradock · 25-02-2008 10:50pm

Wicknight wrote: »

As Thaedydal said this is just news.

What exactly are we supposed to be discussing?

One would imagine we are encouraged to discuss 'the news'

santing · 26-02-2008 2:00pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Notorious republican terrorist Dessie O'Hare is reported to have become a 'born-again Christian' l

It is great news if Dessie has had this life changing experience! We can praise God for that.
It is understandable though that his former victims are suspicious - I would probably be too in their case.

Zombrex · 26-02-2008 2:28pm

PDN wrote: »

So would you prefer it if he was still kidnapping people and cutting their fingers off?

That is the alternative is it ... :rolleyes:

PDN · 28-02-2008 1:21pm

Wicknight wrote: »

That is the alternative is it ... :rolleyes:

For many people it is. Often those who are trapped in lifestyles involving serious crime, alcoholism, drug addiction, violence etc. find that embracing a religious belief gives them the incentive and power to break out of their destructive patterns of behaviour.

I would add that this does not just apply to Christianity - it can apply to those who convert to non-violent mainstream Islam as well. As far as I know there are few, if any, instances of where a commitment to atheism has helped an alcoholic, addict, or criminal to radically improve their lifestyle. Of course this says little or nothing about the truth claims of religion or atheism - but sociologists would generally agree that atheism lacks the transforming power of a strong religious faith.

I would be happy to hear that Mr O'Hare had converted to, say, Buddhism and was now pursuing a life free from violence. While, in my personal opinion, such a switch may have little impact on his personal salvation, it would undeniable be better for society as a whole, and particularly for any potential future victims, that he renounced violence.

Therefore I found it strange that your dislike of Christianity would lead you to express your unhappiness that an extremely dangerous individual appears to be following a path that is undoubtedly more beneficial to society.

mossieh · 28-02-2008 2:58pm

PDN wrote: »

I found it strange that your dislike of Christianity would lead you to express your unhappiness that an extremely dangerous individual appears to be following a path that is undoubtedly more beneficial to society.

Sorry for the truncated quote but that line interested me. It didn't strike me that Wicknight was unhappy 'that an extremely dangerous individual appears to be following a path that is undoubtedly more beneficial to society' but that he saw no particular reason to be happy that Dessie O' Hare was now a christian. He doesn't have to be a christian to contribute to society you know. If anything, it's just swapping republican brainwashing for religious brainwashing. You're smart enough to argue without putting words in peoples mouths PDN.

kelly1 · 28-02-2008 3:04pm

That Christianity is brainwashing, is your opinion, nothing more.

mossieh · 28-02-2008 3:12pm

kelly1 wrote: »

That Christianity is brainwashing, is your opinion, nothing more.

Quite true Noel.
It is only my opinion. I think that indoctrination to a religion from early childhood is akin in method (not purpose) to the enrolment of children in the hitler youth. It's hard for people to shake off beliefs that are drilled into them as kids. It is brainwashing, in my opinion.

PDN · 28-02-2008 3:15pm

mossieh wrote: »

Quite true Noel.
It is only my opinion. I think that indoctrination to a religion from early childhood is akin in method (not purpose) to the enrolment of children in the hitler youth. It's hard for people to shake off beliefs that are drilled into them as kids. It is brainwashing, in my opinion.

Not sure how kids got into this thread. Actually Dessie O'Hare is not a child. He is 51 years old.

kelly1 · 28-02-2008 3:29pm

mossieh wrote: »

Quite true Noel.
It is only my opinion. I think that indoctrination to a religion from early childhood is akin in method (not purpose) to the enrolment of children in the hitler youth. It's hard for people to shake off beliefs that are drilled into them as kids. It is brainwashing, in my opinion.

Was it hard for you to shake it off? I think it's very easy in fact.

mossieh · 28-02-2008 3:47pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Was it hard for you to shake it off? I think it's very easy in fact.

Personally, yes it was. At the age of fourteen, deciding that if there was a god as I had truly believed, that he had utterly betrayed me was pretty traumatic. It took me a long time to get from thinking that god was a complete * to the realisation that I was the * for having believed in him.

*insert the bad word of your choice, my choice would get me banned sharpish.

interestinguser · 28-02-2008 3:50pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Was it hard for you to shake it off? I think it's very easy in fact.

Rubbish. People who genuinely hold religious beliefs will not just shake them off, especially beliefs that are drilled in from childhood. It can be very difficult in fact.

mossieh · 28-02-2008 3:52pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Was it hard for you to shake it off? I think it's very easy in fact.

Would you find it easy Noel?

kelly1 · 28-02-2008 5:10pm

mossieh wrote: »

Personally, yes it was. At the age of fourteen, deciding that if there was a god as I had truly believed, that he had utterly betrayed me was pretty traumatic. It took me a long time to get from thinking that god was a complete * to the realisation that I was the * for having believed in him.

Maybe this is prying too much but how did/could God betray you? I'm sorry you felt this way.

interestinguser wrote: »

Rubbish. People who genuinely hold religious beliefs will not just shake them off, especially beliefs that are drilled in from childhood. It can be very difficult in fact.

Why would someone who is, for example, a faithful Catholic want to drop their faith? On the other hand if religion means nothing to you, it's easy to stop going to Mass and praying etc.

mossieh wrote: »

Would you find it easy Noel?

Certainly not, it would be like cutting an arm off. I'm talking about people who have no time for religion.

CerebralCortex · 28-02-2008 5:35pm

kelly1 wrote: »

That Christianity is brainwashing, is your opinion, nothing more.

http://jcnot4me.com/Items/Misc%20Topics/brainwashing.htm

Basically with that link, I am asking outside of your faith how can you be sure? Your always telling us atheists how arrogant we are. Maybe there is an element of "do as I say not as I do" in that?

mossieh · 28-02-2008 6:35pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Maybe this is prying too much but how did/could God betray you? I'm sorry you felt this way.

Too personal to get into on a public forum Noel, sorry. All I will say is that to someone who was as a kid, completely accepting of the faith I was brought up in, a sequence of fairly catastrophic incidents in my life showed me that my prayers were wasted breath. I think the prayer of a child to a god he believes in, is something that a just god could not ignore. Mine did. Someone close to me at the time kept repeating the mantra: 'god is good', well, he has a funny fu*king way of showing it.

kelly1 wrote: »

Why would someone who is, for example, a faithful Catholic want to drop their faith? On the other hand if religion means nothing to you, it's easy to stop going to Mass and praying etc.

Well we were talking about people who were indoctrinated from childhood.

kelly1 wrote: »

Certainly not, it would be like cutting an arm off. I'm talking about people who have no time for religion.

Ironically, losing an arm at the age of eight was the first trial that your loving god set me and my family. There was much more to follow.

Despite how this might sound, I'm not bitter. I do however, find it difficult to listen to guff about 'god's plan for us'.
Knowing that in a random universe, shít happens, is a much greater source of comfort to me.

I've gone seriously off-topic here. Apologies OP.

wolfsbane · 28-02-2008 7:28pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Yes I'm glad too. Anyone else our there glad?

Delighted, if it's true. I know several former terrorists who are truly changed men by the grace of God.

I know others who at some stage professed to be born again but their lives subsequently showed them to be bogus. A guilty conscience causes some to adopt a religious profession, but without the real heart change the Holy Spirit brings.

I note from the article that some victims of republican terror are unhappy at his change. How sad, but it just points up the fact that the Protestant community, like the Catholic one, is composed mainly of unbelievers. Protestant in name only, without the knowledge of God and His salvation in their hearts.

Fanny Cradock · 28-02-2008 7:54pm

mossieh wrote: »

Quite true Noel.
It is only my opinion. I think that indoctrination to a religion from early childhood is akin in method (not purpose) to the enrolment of children in the hitler youth. It's hard for people to shake off beliefs that are drilled into them as kids. It is brainwashing, in my opinion.

I'm quite sure that you have no idea what you are talking about.

wolfsbane · 28-02-2008 7:55pm

mossieh said:

Too personal to get into on a public forum Noel, sorry. All I will say is that to someone who was as a kid, completely accepting of the faith I was brought up in, a sequence of fairly catastrophic incidents in my life showed me that my prayers were wasted breath. I think the prayer of a child to a god he believes in, is something that a just god could not ignore. Mine did. Someone close to me at the time kept repeating the mantra: 'god is good', well, he has a funny fu*king way of showing it.

I sympathise with you troubles, my friend. Life is indeed hard at times.

Let me suggest to you that the true God heard your prayers, and has done you good in sparing you to this time, delivering you from the false gospel you had your hopes in. Had life not soured your trust in it, you might well today be looking to a Church to get you to heaven and submitting your conscience to men rather than God.

Every Christian knows something of that, for we had to lose hope in everything else but God before we would put our trust in Him alone. Paul the apostle had to lose his faith in Judaism, in his own attempts to merit God's favour, before he could bow to Jesus Christ and accept His righteousness. Luther had to abandon his trust in the Church and penance before he could be justified by faith alone.

God is good to all in the sense that He gives so many good gifts to believers and unbelievers alike: rain, sun, food, shelter, family, etc. To some degree we all have those. He could have justly destroyed us all, but has spared us to this time.

But the ultimate good God does is reserved for His people, for those who trust in Him. He forgives their sins and is going to bring them to live with Him forever. The afflictions of this life will soon be over, but and endless eternity of peace and joy awaits all to trust in Him.
Matthew 11:28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us...
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

mossieh · 28-02-2008 8:33pm

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I'm quite sure that you have no idea what you are talking about.

ok. Thanks for sharing.

kelly1 · 28-02-2008 10:46pm

Wolfsbane, that post is just despicable. What a cheap shot. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Fanny Cradock · 28-02-2008 11:04pm

mossieh wrote: »

ok. Thanks for sharing.

Anytime

keano_afc · 28-02-2008 11:43pm

Whats wrong with Wolfsbane's post?

Run_to_da_hills · 29-02-2008 12:13am

mossieh wrote: »

I've gone seriously off-topic here. Apologies OP.

No worries.

keano_afc wrote: »

Whats wrong with Wolfsbane's post?

I see absolutly nothing is wrong with Wolfsbane's post. I was also delivered from the same false religion that was forced down my troath with out choice for the first 20 years of my life. Thank God I found the real truth in the scriptures and not the false hope in worldly man made religion.

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" John 8vs32

mossieh · 29-02-2008 12:29am

wolfsbane wrote: »

mossieh said:

I sympathise with you troubles, my friend. Life is indeed hard at times.

Let me suggest to you that the true God heard your prayers, and has done you good in sparing you to this time, delivering you from the false gospel you had your hopes in. Had life not soured your trust in it, you might well today be looking to a Church to get you to heaven and submitting your conscience to men rather than God.

Every Christian knows something of that, for we had to lose hope in everything else but God before we would put our trust in Him alone. Paul the apostle had to lose his faith in Judaism, in his own attempts to merit God's favour, before he could bow to Jesus Christ and accept His righteousness. Luther had to abandon his trust in the Church and penance before he could be justified by faith alone.

God is good to all in the sense that He gives so many good gifts to believers and unbelievers alike: rain, sun, food, shelter, family, etc. To some degree we all have those. He could have justly destroyed us all, but has spared us to this time.

But the ultimate good God does is reserved for His people, for those who trust in Him. He forgives their sins and is going to bring them to live with Him forever. The afflictions of this life will soon be over, but and endless eternity of peace and joy awaits all to trust in Him.
Matthew 11:28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us...
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Extraordinary, truly extraordinary.

PDN · 01-03-2008 3:09pm

mossieh wrote: »

Sorry for the truncated quote but that line interested me. It didn't strike me that Wicknight was unhappy 'that an extremely dangerous individual appears to be following a path that is undoubtedly more beneficial to society' but that he saw no particular reason to be happy that Dessie O' Hare was now a christian. He doesn't have to be a christian to contribute to society you know. If anything, it's just swapping republican brainwashing for religious brainwashing. You're smart enough to argue without putting words in peoples mouths PDN.

I don't see that I'm putting words in people's mouths at all.

If it was reported that Osama bin Laden had renounced Islam, had become an atheist and was no longer going to participate in violence then I would be absolutely delighted. I certainly would not express my unhappiness that he had become an atheist. Even if we don't agree with someone's new belief system, we should be happy if their embracing of that belief system is going to lessen violence and suffering.

philologos · 01-03-2008 9:02pm

mossieh wrote: »

Personally, yes it was. At the age of fourteen, deciding that if there was a god as I had truly believed, that he had utterly betrayed me was pretty traumatic. It took me a long time to get from thinking that god was a complete * to the realisation that I was the * for having believed in him.

*insert the bad word of your choice, my choice would get me banned sharpish.

That was about the age by which I started to doubt my faith. However here I am aged 18 believing in Christianity, it's funny the way things work sometimes isn't it?

The "Border Fox" has seen the light.

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