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Emmmm something.
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.....as its a biased source its carefully selected alleged views being presented (free of charge, isn't that nice) to western media. Not much of an improvement.
you could say the same of Rightwing Watch or Fox News :pac:. I have seen some interesting interviews, some being actual debates where you have someone with a more reasonable position debating someone with a looper position. Muslim versions of Ken Ham are worth hearing about just to get an idea what extremists Islamic positions are.A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer
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Where and when did I say they didn't? The link rates the most prolific offenders. Evidently these exist outside the middle east.
The majority are Muslim countries, or with large Muslim communities all the same, and there really isn't enough detail there to be able to draw the conclusion from it that you do, that it isn't an issue in "the Muslim heartland" : are those statistics even reliable, for example, given that SA doesn't even have a minimum legal age of marriage?
Also, is the problem of child marriage the same in place in Central America where few children get more than primary school education and where it is usual for both boys and girls to marry at 15, compared to a country where 8 year olds are married to 50 year olds, as in Yemen? I think those are very different situations, yet that link doesn't appear to distinguish between them.
Anyway, my main point was that Islam is more or less unique in that the religion itself specifically condones child marriage, which makes it very difficult for there to be any effective child protection in Saudi Arabia : those who are against any age limit at all can, and do, claim that the very idea of such legislation setting out a minimum age is anti-Islam. No other major religion makes such a claim.0 -
I think Islam is just one of the only religions still holding onto that tradition. The fact is in the past childbirth was very risky and women had a better chance of survival the younger they gave birth. With no prolonged education there was no reason for people to wait to get married either, they had to settle into work and raising a family pretty young because they had pretty much nothing else to do with their lives.Anyway, my main point was that Islam is more or less unique in that the religion itself specifically condones child marriage, which makes it very difficult for there to be any effective child protection in Saudi Arabia :
There's also the fact that Mary probably would have been a very young teenage girl when god got her pregnant with himself.0 -
silverharp wrote: »you could say the same of Rightwing Watch or Fox News :pac:. I have seen some interesting interviews, some being actual debates where you have someone with a more reasonable position debating someone with a looper position. Muslim versions of Ken Ham are worth hearing about just to get an idea what extremists Islamic positions are.
O I know they exist, but I have a particular problem with anything sourced via memri, as its essentially a propaganda unit in support of a fairly vile agenda. There's enough demonisation in the world without some shower dedicated to it getting in on the act.0 -
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The majority are Muslim countries, or with large Muslim communities all the same, and there really isn't enough detail there to be able to draw the conclusion from it that you do, that it isn't an issue in "the Muslim heartland" : are those statistics even reliable, for example, given that SA doesn't even have a minimum legal age of marriage?
Also, is the problem of child marriage the same in place in Central America where few children get more than primary school education and where it is usual for both boys and girls to marry at 15, compared to a country where 8 year olds are married to 50 year olds, as in Yemen? I think those are very different situations, yet that link doesn't appear to distinguish between them..
They count both, and again, the middle east would not seem to be at the heart of it.0 -
O I know they exist, but I have a particular problem with anything sourced via memri, as its essentially a propaganda unit in support of a fairly vile agenda. There's enough demonisation in the world without some shower dedicated to it getting in on the act.
Its a resource . I tend to watch them when a commentator refers to them in making a point. I gather its Israeli owned or financed, it shouldn't really matter , its up to anyone else to question their editing or translation.A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer
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Umm, that's my point really, the fact that Islam still does hold onto the tradition, and that people trying to make it illegal in Islamic countries are liable to find themselves accused of unislamic behaviour. That's a big difference with other cultures where girls marry young, such as travelers - there's no religious taboo on criticizing that tradition. (And yes, I know any criticism of cultural traditions is sometimes displeasing, but religious beliefs have special protection that other beliefs don't usually benefit from. The blasphemy law here for example. Conscience clauses.)I think Islam is just one of the only religions still holding onto that tradition.
if that were quoted as a reason not to allow legislation to set an age of consent or marriage, that would be a good point. But it isn't, unlike the age Aisha was married at.There's also the fact that Mary probably would have been a very young teenage girl when god got her pregnant with himself.0 -
I think the environmental reasons why people married young are still there in many Islamic countries. Outside of the major cities there's very little for people to do bar get married and have children. They have very little in the way of education prospects and not so many job opportunities.Umm, that's my point really, the fact that Islam still does hold onto the tradition, and that people trying to make it illegal in Islamic countries are liable to find themselves accused of unislamic behaviour. That's a big difference with other cultures where girls marry young, such as travelers - there's no religious taboo on criticizing that tradition.
I think we can see in the cities that women do enjoy a slightly better standard of life and have slightly more freedoms. These countries are going through social change it's just they have a lot of catching up to do. There does seem to be a tipping point and these countries haven't reached that point yet.
We in the west have had a head start on these places, I don't think we can criticize them when we were almost as bad a generation ago and it took a lot of external influence to change us.0 -
I think the environmental reasons why people married young are still there in many Islamic countries. Outside of the major cities there's very little for people to do bar get married and have children. They have very little in the way of education prospects and not so many job opportunities.
I think we can see in the cities that women do enjoy a slightly better standard of life and have slightly more freedoms. These countries are going through social change it's just they have a lot of catching up to do. There does seem to be a tipping point and these countries haven't reached that point yet.
We in the west have had a head start on these places, I don't think we can criticize them when we were almost as bad a generation ago and it took a lot of external influence to change us.
You misunderstand me. I'm not criticizing anyone for deciding to get married and have children, I'm criticizing a religion that teaches people it's wrong to tell parents they possibly shouldn't marry off their eight-year-olds as third or fourth wives to old men.
Far be it from me to defend the Catholic Church, but I don't think it's all relative either - Ireland was bad enough in many ways, but child abuse was never officially taught as an acceptable thing to do. Small mercy perhaps, but it made a huge difference once people finally started speaking out all the same - because it was clear that the catholic church could not point to anything that allowed child abuse. Unlike Islam, where Aisha was married off at 6, and raped at 9. Because it was rape.
Anyway, I've had enough of this, I find it quite upsetting that so manypeople seem to care so little that a religion that we are asked to respect actually condones child sex abuse as part of its official teachings, and that people are too "polite" to say that this is just not acceptable.
And no, the direction is the wrong way, unfortunately. Afghanistan and Iran were far more westernized in the 60s and 70s. Saudi Arabia was quite a relaxed place until the assault on the Grand Mosque in, I think, 1979 or 80. I visited Turkey in 1990 and 2008 - the change was shocking. And not in a good way.0 -
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I think you're taking it all out of context and judging people by your own circumstances. As far as I was aware they marry off young children but that it's more of a promise that the girl will marry when she's of a suitable age. I know there are stories of men marrying and consummating marriages to prepubescent girls but is that the norm or an extreme example?You misunderstand me. I'm not criticizing anyone for deciding to get married and have children, I'm criticizing a religion that teaches people it's wrong to tell parents they possibly shouldn't marry off their eight-year-olds as third or fourth wives to old men.
I'm sure the parents are also trying to do the best thing by their children. Unfortunately being married to a successful man is the best a girl can hope for in some areas and the fact remains they have little other options open to them.
The same thing happened all over Europe, women getting to choose who they married once they were old enough to understand their decision is a relatively new thing. Just look at royalty, the people with the most choice in Europe were forced into political promissory marriages while they were still children. So what Islamic countries are doing isn't unusual in human society, it's just backwards.Far be it from me to defend the Catholic Church, but I don't think it's all relative either - Ireland was bad enough in many ways, but child abuse was never officially taught as an acceptable thing to do. Small mercy perhaps, but it made a huge difference once people finally started speaking out all the same - because it was clear that the catholic church could not point to anything that allowed child abuse. Unlike Islam, where Aisha was married off at 6, and raped at 9. Because it was rape.
I don't think anyones saying it's acceptable by our standards, what we're pointing out is that it's a completely different society, with completely different environmental influences. we can't realistically expect and entire culture to change instantly just because we found a better way and have the means to carry it out. Every human society has a social structure and those structures take a long time to change if you want to avoid anarchy and turmoil.Anyway, I've had enough of this, I find it quite upsetting that so manypeople seem to care so little that a religion that we are asked to respect actually condones child sex abuse as part of its official teachings, and that people are too "polite" to say that this is just not acceptable.
Even at the slow pace it's happening (we went through revolutions and wars to get where we are today) it's causing all kinds of social problems and that is going to continue as people settle into a new way of life. We just can't expect it to happen in a timely fashion.0 -
For the girls it happens to, it doesn't matter how rare it is, the problems that they have nowhere to turn because their own country allows parents to choose to do this because of their religion. A religion which doesn't accept any criticism of anything it's prophet did. So because he married a 6 year old, it's unacceptable to tell parents they shouldn't do the same, if they want to. If we had religion-sanctioned child abuse here, there'd be plenty of people ready to say it was not good enough.I think you're taking it all out of context and judging people by your own circumstances. As far as I was aware they marry off young children but that it's more of a promise that the girl will marry when she's of a suitable age. I know there are stories of men marrying and consummating marriages to prepubescent girls but is that the norm or an extreme example?
It's the backwards bit that bothers me, and the fact that it's not disappearing, because it is religiously based.I'm sure the parents are also trying to do the best thing by their children. Unfortunately being married to a successful man is the best a girl can hope for in some areas and the fact remains they have little other options open to them.
The same thing happened all over Europe, women getting to choose who they married once they were old enough to understand their decision is a relatively new thing. Just look at royalty, the people with the most choice in Europe were forced into political promissory marriages while they were still children. So what Islamic countries are doing isn't unusual in human society, it's just backwards.
Is there any evidence that it's becoming more or less acceptable in any of the Muslim societies? I'd suggest that ISIS-ISIL shows that if anything it's becoming more common not less.I don't think anyones saying it's acceptable by our standards, what we're pointing out is that it's a completely different society, with completely different environmental influences. we can't realistically expect and entire culture to change instantly just because we found a better way and have the means to carry it out. Every human society has a social structure and those structures take a long time to change if you want to avoid anarchy and turmoil.
Even at the slow pace it's happening (we went through revolutions and wars to get where we are today) it's causing all kinds of social problems and that is going to continue as people settle into a new way of life. We just can't expect it to happen in a timely fashion.
It's just not true that places like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan are becoming more like us, their social development is exactly the other direction. Anyway, my real point is that the problem of Islam condoning these practices is a powerful brake on change, which means it's just not true to suppose that as they develop their economy they will change their practices. There's little evidence of that happening - quite the opposite : Saudi Arabia is far richer than us.0 -
For the girls it happens to, it doesn't matter how rare it is, ..............
But it does rather undermines the notion that its part of mainstream muslim life, which what, I think, we're trying to get at. There's no denying what's in the Koran, but that doesn't mean that the majority of muslims take it as a directive to have sex with underage children.0 -
But it does rather undermines the notion that its part of mainstream muslim life, which what, I think, we're trying to get at. There's no denying what's in the Koran, but that doesn't mean that the majority of muslims take it as a directive to have sex with underage children.
That's good because I don't think I ever said that, did I?0 -
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BlaasForRafa wrote: »But does it inhibit them from condemning it or legislating against it(in countries that practice sharia law)?
Important point here : there are 2 aspects to sharia law, family law, which is the norm to varying extents in almost all countries where Islam is the majority religion, and criminal law which is much less common. So your question is not only about Iran, Saudi Arabia or a few other extremist places, it's relevant in Indonesia, the North African countries, South Asia, just about everywhere really.
A telling illustration is that when the British tried to ban child marriage in India, before independence, they had to bring in an exemption for Muslims, because it was felt their religion didnt allow it to be banned. So they banned child marriage for Hindus, Sikhs etc, but not for Muslims.
It still doesn't : in India Muslim personal law allows marriage at an age where other Indian citizens would be in breach of the law on the age of consent : http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/kerala/muslim-groups-oppose-ban-on-child-marriage/article5155367.ece0 -
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No. You're inventing it, and I'm going to ask you to put up a quote of mine that suggests that the majority of Muslims have sex with underage children. And when you can't find any, I want an apology.
It's the impression you give
"Far be it from me to defend the Catholic Church, but I don't think it's all relative either - Ireland was bad enough in many ways, but child abuse was never officially taught as an acceptable thing to do. Small mercy perhaps, but it made a huge difference once people finally started speaking out all the same - because it was clear that the catholic church could not point to anything that allowed child abuse. Unlike Islam, where Aisha was married off at 6, and raped at 9. Because it was rape.
Anyway, I've had enough of this, I find it quite upsetting that so manypeople seem to care so little that a religion that we are asked to respect actually condones child sex abuse as part of its official teachings, and that people are too "polite" to say that this is just not acceptable."
...in conjunction with posts 18 and 19 and the first paragraph of post 34.
I'd suggest reading this
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-david-liepert/islamic-pedophelia_b_814332.html
and contemplating the fact that in the largest muslim country - Indonesia - the law regards marital age is the same as in Britain, save that parental consent is required from ages 16-18 in Britain, while its 16-21 in Indonesia.0 -
It's the impression you give
"Far be it from me to defend the Catholic Church, but I don't think it's all relative either - Ireland was bad enough in many ways, but child abuse was never officially taught as an acceptable thing to do. Small mercy perhaps, but it made a huge difference once people finally started speaking out all the same - because it was clear that the catholic church could not point to anything that allowed child abuse. Unlike Islam, where Aisha was married off at 6, and raped at 9. Because it was rape.
Anyway, I've had enough of this, I find it quite upsetting that so manypeople seem to care so little that a religion that we are asked to respect actually condones child sex abuse as part of its official teachings, and that people are too "polite" to say that this is just not acceptable."
...in conjunction with posts 18 and 19 and the first paragraph of post 34.
I'd suggest reading this
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-david-liepert/islamic-pedophelia_b_814332.html
and contemplating the fact that in the largest muslim country - Indonesia - the law regards marital age is the same as in Britain, save that parental consent is required from ages 16-18 in Britain, while its 16-21 in Indonesia.
Nothing there implies that the majority of Muslims have sex with underage children - which is what you're claiming I've said.
My point is that for those paedophiles who happen to be Muslim, and who are no more numerous than paedophiles of other religions or none, they have a particular protection that none of the others do, which is that religious Muslims can't criticise anything Mohammed did, and therefore are often unwilling to legislate for a minimum age of consent for girls.
That's a genuine social problem made worse by Islam, and I stand by that - but it still doesn't mean that the majority of Muslims, or anything like it, are paedophiles. Just that legislation in Muslim countries tends not to punish paedophiles as long as they marry their victims before they rape them.
I'm also entirely unconvinced that the requirement for parental consent is a protection, it's just more Sharia law where children, especially girls, are the property of someone. Father or husband.
Edit : the article you linked to, by a Canadian convert, clearly accepts that most Muslims think that Aisha was 6 or 9, and that the fact of this widespread belief is a danger to young girls in Muslim countries. which is exactly what I've been saying.
He proves my point completely because he obviously doesn't expect anyone to accept that it would be child abuse if she were 6, he feels he can only win his case by proving that the story itself is false and that she was older. Personally, I don't care whether it's true or not, I care that people accept it.0 -
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